Right to Life (et al) is wrong??!! RE punishing women who abort

[rightnow909]

Pro-life organizations wrote a letter to lawmakers (not sure which ones, but probably those in Louisiana which is considering legislation to punish women who obtain an abortion). In the letter they speak of the Catholic Church’s position on abortion. However, these “70 pro-life leaders” do not seem to be in conformity with the teachings of the Catholic Church OR with logic. (This is from an article in the Southern Nebraska Register, May 20, 2022) My comments are in [ ]s and the non-italicized parts.

First the parts I agree with… I only found a couple paragraphs (strangely):



“[The woman]… is also Roe’s victim… She is the victim of a callous industry created to take lives; an industry that claims to provide for women’s health but denies the reality that far too many American women suffer devastating physical and psychological damage following abortion.”

The] Catholic Church condemns abortion… stresses the importance of forgiveness and mercy for the women who have obtained abortions… “… does not intend to restrict the scope of mercy,” the Catechism… reads… “makes clear the gravity of the crime… the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death as well as to the parents and the whole of society.”

There are about 16 paragraphs in this article and I agree ONLY with those 2.

Then there is a sentence I agree with: “[T]here are two victims with every abortion…” [except that, no, there are far more than just those two primary ones. The father can suffer… All of society suffers].



In this letter to lawmakers, these pro-life leaders “demanded [demanded!] that state lawmakers refuse to punish or criminalize women who obtain abortions.“

They seem to be particularly concerned about Louisiana, a state considering legislation that could subject women who obtain abortions to criminal prosecution and prison.

I’m with Louisiana. In fact, I was enraged reading the position of these so-called pro-life leaders.

The Catholic Church, I am convinced, does not agree with them (in an ex cathedra way), although there is no list of all the aforementioned “leaders” who wrote this letter. Oh, wait, there is mention of an archbishop William Lori, who, astoundingly, is HEAD of the US bishops’ pro-life committee!

So, these people obviously are in error, against both logic and LIFE AND the American way (which American way, if done according to how our Founders designed, is an excellent way).

As to that latter argument, there is this: There is supposed to be a semblance of equality in our American system of justice. You are going to punish a doctor who performs an abortion but NOT—as per Pope Francis—the woman who ordered “the hit.” (Pope F referred once to abortion as being a hit job or words to that effect.)



This makes no logical sense. You don’t give one person committing murder a prison or death sentence and let another murderer go free.

So, the way I see things is that these “leaders” do not REALLY see abortion as murder after all. If they did, they would want ALL parties implicated in said murderous act to be punished by our laws..

YES, LOUISIANA!!!

Show us the way….

 

[Winston]

Pro-life organizations wrote a letter to lawmakers (not sure which ones, but probably those in Louisiana which is considering legislation to punish women who obtain an abortion). In the letter they speak of the Catholic Church’s position on abortion. However, these “70 pro-life leaders” do not seem to be in conformity with the teachings of the Catholic Church OR with logic. (This is from an article in the Southern Nebraska Register, May 20, 2022) My comments are in [ ]s and the non-italicized parts.

First the parts I agree with… I only found a couple paragraphs (strangely):



“[The woman]… is also Roe’s victim… She is the victim of a callous industry created to take lives; an industry that claims to provide for women’s health but denies the reality that far too many American women suffer devastating physical and psychological damage following abortion.”

The] Catholic Church condemns abortion… stresses the importance of forgiveness and mercy for the women who have obtained abortions… “… does not intend to restrict the scope of mercy,” the Catechism… reads… “makes clear the gravity of the crime… the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death as well as to the parents and the whole of society.”

There are about 16 paragraphs in this article and I agree ONLY with those 2.

Then there is a sentence I agree with: “[T]here are two victims with every abortion…” [except that, no, there are far more than just those two primary ones. The father can suffer… All of society suffers].



In this letter to lawmakers, these pro-life leaders “demanded [demanded!] that state lawmakers refuse to punish or criminalize women who obtain abortions.“

They seem to be particularly concerned about Louisiana, a state considering legislation that could subject women who obtain abortions to criminal prosecution and prison.

I’m with Louisiana. In fact, I was enraged reading the position of these so-called pro-life leaders.

The Catholic Church, I am convinced, does not agree with them (in an ex cathedra way), although there is no list of all the aforementioned “leaders” who wrote this letter. Oh, wait, there is mention of an archbishop William Lori, who, astoundingly, is HEAD of the US bishops’ pro-life committee!

So, these people obviously are in error, against both logic and LIFE AND the American way (which American way, if done according to how our Founders designed, is an excellent way).

As to that latter argument, there is this: There is supposed to be a semblance of equality in our American system of justice. You are going to punish a doctor who performs an abortion but NOT—as per Pope Francis—the woman who ordered “the hit.” (Pope F referred once to abortion as being a hit job or words to that effect.)



This makes no logical sense. You don’t give one person committing murder a prison or death sentence and let another murderer go free.

So, the way I see things is that these “leaders” do not REALLY see abortion as murder after all. If they did, they would want ALL parties implicated in said murderous act to be punished by our laws..

YES, LOUISIANA!!!

Show us the way….

Yeah, let's punish those women that have abortions. Throw them in jail. And the men that fathered those aborted babies, let's go after them too. Demand to know who the father is, DNA tests required on aborted fetuses. And those fathers go to jail too, but just a short while. Small prison terms for both of them, maybe two years. But assess child support against them for 18 years and make them pay into a fund for adoptive parents.

And communities, it takes a community to raise a child, so if someone in the community is convicted of getting an abortion, then that entire community should be subjected to a special "abortion" penalty tax. About ten percent increase in property tax for each abortion ought to do it. Base it on zip codes, keep it local. The proceeds can be used to finance the schools.

And lets go ahead and pass a bill on the federal level stripping federal funding for Medicaid and Medicare from states that don't immediately ban abortion. I mean when MAGA supporter Boomer Bob loses his socialist Medicare, well hell, that is what he wanted all along anyway. Hell, states like New York will empty out rather quickly, while Texas, and of course Louisiana, will be inundated with Medicare beneficiaries.

Nope, we need to stop this killing. Overturn Roe v. Wade and Katy bar the door, everything is on the table.

 

[jwoodie]

Pro-life organizations wrote a letter to lawmakers (not sure which ones, but probably those in Louisiana which is considering legislation to punish women who obtain an abortion). In the letter they speak of the Catholic Church’s position on abortion. However, these “70 pro-life leaders” do not seem to be in conformity with the teachings of the Catholic Church OR with logic. (This is from an article in the Southern Nebraska Register, May 20, 2022) My comments are in [ ]s and the non-italicized parts.

First the parts I agree with… I only found a couple paragraphs (strangely):



“[The woman]… is also Roe’s victim… She is the victim of a callous industry created to take lives; an industry that claims to provide for women’s health but denies the reality that far too many American women suffer devastating physical and psychological damage following abortion.”

The] Catholic Church condemns abortion… stresses the importance of forgiveness and mercy for the women who have obtained abortions… “… does not intend to restrict the scope of mercy,” the Catechism… reads… “makes clear the gravity of the crime… the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death as well as to the parents and the whole of society.”

There are about 16 paragraphs in this article and I agree ONLY with those 2.

Then there is a sentence I agree with: “[T]here are two victims with every abortion…” [except that, no, there are far more than just those two primary ones. The father can suffer… All of society suffers].



In this letter to lawmakers, these pro-life leaders “demanded [demanded!] that state lawmakers refuse to punish or criminalize women who obtain abortions.“

They seem to be particularly concerned about Louisiana, a state considering legislation that could subject women who obtain abortions to criminal prosecution and prison.

I’m with Louisiana. In fact, I was enraged reading the position of these so-called pro-life leaders.

The Catholic Church, I am convinced, does not agree with them (in an ex cathedra way), although there is no list of all the aforementioned “leaders” who wrote this letter. Oh, wait, there is mention of an archbishop William Lori, who, astoundingly, is HEAD of the US bishops’ pro-life committee!

So, these people obviously are in error, against both logic and LIFE AND the American way (which American way, if done according to how our Founders designed, is an excellent way).

As to that latter argument, there is this: There is supposed to be a semblance of equality in our American system of justice. You are going to punish a doctor who performs an abortion but NOT—as per Pope Francis—the woman who ordered “the hit.” (Pope F referred once to abortion as being a hit job or words to that effect.)



This makes no logical sense. You don’t give one person committing murder a prison or death sentence and let another murderer go free.

So, the way I see things is that these “leaders” do not REALLY see abortion as murder after all. If they did, they would want ALL parties implicated in said murderous act to be punished by our laws..

YES, LOUISIANA!!!

Show us the way….

If YOU have a point to make, why not state it instead of making piecemeal criticisms of someone else's opinion with which you may agree or disagree? MY opinion is that, unless/until a fetus is granted Constitutional rights, a state's interest in abortions is one of regulating medical procedures. If a doctor performs an unapproved procedure, he should be subject to discipline by the medical board and/or loss of his medical license. If a non-doctor performs a medical procedure, he should be subject to criminal prosecution.

 

[rightnow909]

Yeah, let's punish those women that have abortions. Throw them in jail. And the men that fathered those aborted babies, let's go after them too. .

I stopped reading right here because of the dictum: a wrong premise means a faulty conclusion

The father cannot go to a "hit man" as per Pope F and demand that he kill his wife or g/friend's unborn child... And of course, he wouldn't even think of it if there was a serious jail sentence facing him for doing so

 

[rightnow909]

If YOU have a point to make, why not state it instead of making piecemeal criticisms of someone else's opinion with which you may agree or disagree? MY opinion is that, unless/until a fetus is granted Constitutional rights, a state's interest in abortions is one of regulating medical procedures. If a doctor performs an unapproved procedure, he should be subject to discipline by the medical board and/or loss of his medical license. If a non-doctor performs a medical procedure, he should be subject to criminal prosecution.

I don't get what this has to do with punishment of women who ask that someone kill their child(ren)??

and also, it is not the opinion of humans that matters if said humans do not care about objective truth

and objective truth says... things like this

it is either a human or it is not
it is either alive or it is not

and logical people have logical answers

 

[Winston]

I stopped reading right here because of the dictum: a wrong premise means a faulty conclusion

The father cannot go to a "hit man" as per Pope F and demand that he kill his wife or g/friend's unborn child... And of course, he wouldn't even think of it if there was a serious jail sentence facing him for doing so

I knew it. Start holding males accountable and you start back peddling. Do you really believe that there are not thousands, maybe millions of abortions, performed because the father refuses responsibility. You are the typical piece of shit right wing asshole. You can conveniently be against abortion because it ain't no skin off your nose. Soon as it appears you might get bit, you run and hide for the hills. My position stands, the mother, the father, the community, and even the state, all should be held accountable. If you can't support that, then stand the fawk down.

 

[occupied]

The Christian Taliban is making sure American Christianity does not last another fifty years with this shit.

 

[rightnow909]

I knew it. Start holding males accountable and you start back peddling. Do you really believe that there are not thousands, maybe millions of abortions, performed because the father refuses responsibility. You are the typical piece of shit right wing asshole. You can conveniently be against abortion because it ain't no skin off your nose. Soon as it appears you might get bit, you run and hide for the hills. My position stands, the mother, the father, the community, and even the state, all should be held accountable. If you can't support that, then stand the fawk down.

again... you start off w/ a false premise... actually several but who is counting?

so how can I answer you... Get the first part of your "argument" correct and maybe I will....

 

[rightnow909]

I think I made my point... (and I know others here agree w/ me because I have read posts here at this forum on this topic)



But just in case anyone missed the main points, here they are


You are going to punish a doctor who performs an abortion but NOT—as per Pope Francis—the woman who ordered “the hit.” (Pope F referred once to abortion as being a hit job or words to that effect.)



This makes no logical sense. You don’t give one person committing murder a prison or death sentence and let another murderer go free.

So, the way I see things is that these “leaders” do not REALLY see abortion as murder after all. If they did, they would want ALL parties implicated in said murderous act to be punished by our laws..

 

[jwoodie]

I don't get what this has to do with punishment of women who ask that someone kill their child(ren)??

and also, it is not the opinion of humans that matters if said humans do not care about objective truth

and objective truth says... things like this

it is either a human or it is not
it is either alive or it is not

and logical people have logical answers

So is this a political or philosophical question? If political, it absolutely depends on the opinions of humans, whether objective or not. If philosophical, what are your answers? Is being human the same thing as being a person? Does being alive mean the same thing as being independently self-sustaining? Personally, I lean towards giving a fully formed fetus the benefit of the doubt, but objective minds may disagree. It may seems sacrilegious, but Pontius Pilate may have had a point in letting the people decide.

 

[rightnow909]

So is this a political or philosophical question? If political, it absolutely depends on the opinions of humans, whether objective or not. If philosophical, what are your answers? Is being human the same thing as being a person? Does being alive mean the same thing as being independently self-sustaining? Personally, I lean towards giving

I cannot do your thinking for you.

Science has proven that life begins... oh wow, whoda thunk it... at the beginning (conception)

If you cared about someone besides yourself (and whomever you love... or "love") you would CARE about the pain these babies go through when aborted... the pain their mothers go through with Post Abortion Syndrome. You would CARE that our society has been tolerating and promoting and engaging in legalized MURDER for 46 years... 63 million dead..

but all you seem to care about is having an "out" if you have sex w/ someone who gets pregnant and you don't want to marry her

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Pro-life organizations wrote a letter to lawmakers (not sure which ones, but probably those in Louisiana which is considering legislation to punish women who obtain an abortion). In the letter they speak of the Catholic Church’s position on abortion. However, these “70 pro-life leaders” do not seem to be in conformity with the teachings of the Catholic Church OR with logic. (This is from an article in the Southern Nebraska Register, May 20, 2022) My comments are in [ ]s and the non-italicized parts.

First the parts I agree with… I only found a couple paragraphs (strangely):



“[The woman]… is also Roe’s victim… She is the victim of a callous industry created to take lives; an industry that claims to provide for women’s health but denies the reality that far too many American women suffer devastating physical and psychological damage following abortion.”

The] Catholic Church condemns abortion… stresses the importance of forgiveness and mercy for the women who have obtained abortions… “… does not intend to restrict the scope of mercy,” the Catechism… reads… “makes clear the gravity of the crime… the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death as well as to the parents and the whole of society.”

There are about 16 paragraphs in this article and I agree ONLY with those 2.

Then there is a sentence I agree with: “[T]here are two victims with every abortion…” [except that, no, there are far more than just those two primary ones. The father can suffer… All of society suffers].



In this letter to lawmakers, these pro-life leaders “demanded [demanded!] that state lawmakers refuse to punish or criminalize women who obtain abortions.“

They seem to be particularly concerned about Louisiana, a state considering legislation that could subject women who obtain abortions to criminal prosecution and prison.

I’m with Louisiana. In fact, I was enraged reading the position of these so-called pro-life leaders.

The Catholic Church, I am convinced, does not agree with them (in an ex cathedra way), although there is no list of all the aforementioned “leaders” who wrote this letter. Oh, wait, there is mention of an archbishop William Lori, who, astoundingly, is HEAD of the US bishops’ pro-life committee!

So, these people obviously are in error, against both logic and LIFE AND the American way (which American way, if done according to how our Founders designed, is an excellent way).

As to that latter argument, there is this: There is supposed to be a semblance of equality in our American system of justice. You are going to punish a doctor who performs an abortion but NOT—as per Pope Francis—the woman who ordered “the hit.” (Pope F referred once to abortion as being a hit job or words to that effect.)



This makes no logical sense. You don’t give one person committing murder a prison or death sentence and let another murderer go free.

So, the way I see things is that these “leaders” do not REALLY see abortion as murder after all. If they did, they would want ALL parties implicated in said murderous act to be punished by our laws..

YES, LOUISIANA!!!

Show us the way….

Abortion isn’t ‘murder.’

And everyone is pro-life – including those who defend a woman’s right to privacy.

It’s perfectly appropriate and consistent to oppose abortion while also opposing more government, intrusive government, at the expense of individual liberty.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I don't get what this has to do with punishment of women who ask that someone kill their child(ren)??

and also, it is not the opinion of humans that matters if said humans do not care about objective truth

and objective truth says... things like this

it is either a human or it is not
it is either alive or it is not

and logical people have logical answers

An embryo/fetus is not a ‘child.’
No one is ‘killing’ their children – to claim otherwise is a ridiculous lie.

 

[rightnow909]

Abortion isn’t ‘murder.’

And everyone is pro-life – including those who defend a woman’s right to privacy.

It’s perfectly appropriate and consistent to oppose abortion whil

I

e also opposing more government, intrusive government, at the expense of individual liberty.

I couldn't care less about your or anyone else's opinions. I care about FACTS and reality and SCIENCE

The science says life begins at the beginning
Logic says life begins at the beginning.

If you want to define away someone else's rights... go ahead. Some day, someone will define away your rights as well.

Germany, circa 1935

 

[rightnow909]

An embryo/fetus is not a ‘child.’
No one is ‘killing’ their children – to claim otherwise is a ridiculous lie.

again, I don't care about your or anyone else's subjective opinion. I care about FACTS and Science and reality... I tend to think it's a bad idea to lie to yourself

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The Christian Taliban is making sure American Christianity does not last another fifty years with this shit.

Such is the tyranny of the Christo-fascist right; such is the tyranny of authoritarian conservatives who will not stop with just overturning Roe – they’ll seek to destroy all our rights to the benefit of the state.

 

[rightnow909]

Such is the tyranny of the Christo-fascist right; such is the tyranny of authoritarian conservatives who will not stop with just overturning Roe – they’ll seek to destroy all our rights to the benefit of the state.

such is the tyranny of people who slap fake words on the words/actions of others, not caring one bit whether such words are the TRUTH

but only that they get their way (in this case, what liberals want is to be able to have all the sex they want without any responsibility for the HUMAN LIFE that may result... and so they LIE to themselves and to the whole world...

some of us are sick and tired of your **&%%$$# lies

 

[Winston]

again... you start off w/ a false premise... actually several but who is counting?

so how can I answer you... Get the first part of your "argument" correct and maybe I will....

No, you start with the false premise, that the woman, and the woman alone, is the one that makes the decision to get an abortion. Awful damn convenient for a self-absorbed asshole male.

 

[Dragonlady]

I stopped reading right here because of the dictum: a wrong premise means a faulty conclusion

The father cannot go to a "hit man" as per Pope F and demand that he kill his wife or g/friend's unborn child... And of course, he wouldn't even think of it if there was a serious jail sentence facing him for doing so

She didn’t get pregnant by herself. If the man has not had unprotected sex making the woman pregnant, she would not be pregnant and needing an abortion. He’s just as responsible as she is.

I’m not sure what should be done for the rest of their children with both parents in jail. Most women who get abortions already have one or more children.

Suggestions???

 

[rightnow909]

She didn’t get pregnant by herself. If the man has not had unprotected sex making the woman pregnant, she would not be pregnant and needing an abortion.

i stopped here because of those pesky false premises I alluded to above... (or just mentioned)

no one needs an abortion

it is unhealthy act for both child and mother, death being the result for one... lifelong "damage" for the other..