Respect vs. Rights

[Semper Fi]

Not sure where else to post this, mods, feel free to move it.

A kid in my Spanish class, who I get along with as long as we steer clear of political discussion, defends to his death his right to not stand up during the Pledge of Allegiance. Now, this isn't intended to be an amendment speculation thread, rather a discussion of courtesy and exercising rights.

While I know he has the right to be "civilly disobedient," and remain seated during the Pledge of Allegiance, it strikes me as disrespectful. The First Amendment guarantees me the right of FREEDOM of SPEECH (and I emphasize speech in this example). Therefore, if you were cooking lasagna and it burned, and I came to your house which reeked of burnt Italian food, I have every right to say "Man, your house smells like shit, dude!!" But I wouldn't. Why? Respect. I'll also not point out that your sweater is ugly or your new haircut just isnt you. Again, respect.

It's also ironic that this kid and those like him value freedom and liberty above all else. Yet he wont stand in respect for the country that provides him with what he finds beloved.

So this raises the question, both for you personally and in general. Do you place respect and courtesy above utilizing your rights, or do you know when to step down from the soapbox, but the Bill of Rights back in your pocket and exercise courtesy? And what do you expect others to do?

Personally, I'd stand in respect during France's national anthem, and I detest France quite a bit. It's called respect and courtesy...oh, and I'll also respect anyone and everyone until they give me a reason not to. It saddens me that not a lot of people exercise respect and courtesy anymore.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Reminds me of the hippy cartoon where they were discussing going down to the local Court house to protest the evil US Government and burn an American flag, right after they hit the Post Office to get their Welfare check.

 

[82Marine89]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the 1st Amendment apply to the government? I can do whatever I want, whenever I want, as long as I respect the rules of the property owner of whose property I am on. While the government can't make him stand, you have every right to state your opinion to him. Do it out of respect for this great Nation, he has done nothing to EARN your respect and everything to lose it.

As for friends, I would tell them if their house smells like a Yak's ass or if their haircut is screwed up. Then I'd give him shit until he fixed it or it grew out. But then again, we Marines didn't have the most flattering haircuts coming out of boot camp, but out of respect and admiration, the other branches of the military have tried to emulate us and started wearing our High and Tights.

 

[pegwinn]

What he said

 

[Dr Grump]

I don't even sing my own national anthem because I'm an athiest and it mentions god. However I do stand when it is played, as I would for any other national anthem. The kid in your class is lacking both class AND respect IMO..

 

[ReillyT]

Not sure where else to post this, mods, feel free to move it.

A kid in my Spanish class, who I get along with as long as we steer clear of political discussion, defends to his death his right to not stand up during the Pledge of Allegiance. Now, this isn't intended to be an amendment speculation thread, rather a discussion of courtesy and exercising rights.

While I know he has the right to be "civilly disobedient," and remain seated during the Pledge of Allegiance, it strikes me as disrespectful. The First Amendment guarantees me the right of FREEDOM of SPEECH (and I emphasize speech in this example). Therefore, if you were cooking lasagna and it burned, and I came to your house which reeked of burnt Italian food, I have every right to say "Man, your house smells like shit, dude!!" But I wouldn't. Why? Respect. I'll also not point out that your sweater is ugly or your new haircut just isnt you. Again, respect.

It's also ironic that this kid and those like him value freedom and liberty above all else. Yet he wont stand in respect for the country that provides him with what he finds beloved.

So this raises the question, both for you personally and in general. Do you place respect and courtesy above utilizing your rights, or do you know when to step down from the soapbox, but the Bill of Rights back in your pocket and exercise courtesy? And what do you expect others to do?

Personally, I'd stand in respect during France's national anthem, and I detest France quite a bit. It's called respect and courtesy...oh, and I'll also respect anyone and everyone until they give me a reason not to. It saddens me that not a lot of people exercise respect and courtesy anymore.

Perhaps he is demonstrating his respect for the values of the country by openingly exercising the rights that it allows. Perhaps if it were the French national anthem, he would stand, because it is the respectful thing to do and he feels no attachment to any of the values or rights of the French state. On the other hand, he obviously feels a strong attachment to the rights and values of the United States, and by opening demonstrating these rights and values, he is, in his own way, paying respect. If he just didn't care about this right (and the values associated with it), he would probably just stand up like a lemming. It is because he doesn't stand up that he shows that he is cognizant and availing of his rights as an American.

Just a possible interpretation.

 

[Dr Grump]

Perhaps he is demonstrating his respect for the values of the country by openingly exercising the rights that it allows. Perhaps if it were the French national anthem, he would stand, because it is the respectful thing to do and he feels no attachment to any of the values or rights of the French state. On the other hand, he obviously feels a strong attachment to the rights and values of the United States, and by opening demonstrating these rights and values, he is, in his own way, paying respect. If he just didn't care about this right (and the values associated with it), he would probably just stand up like a lemming. It is because he doesn't stand up that he shows that he is cognizant and availing of his rights as an American.

Just a possible interpretation.

Talk about trying to stretch a point.......

 

[ReillyT]

Talk about trying to stretch a point.......

I do what I can.

 

[Taomon]

Not sure where else to post this, mods, feel free to move it.

A kid in my Spanish class, who I get along with as long as we steer clear of political discussion, defends to his death his right to not stand up during the Pledge of Allegiance. Now, this isn't intended to be an amendment speculation thread, rather a discussion of courtesy and exercising rights.

While I know he has the right to be "civilly disobedient," and remain seated during the Pledge of Allegiance, it strikes me as disrespectful. The First Amendment guarantees me the right of FREEDOM of SPEECH (and I emphasize speech in this example). Therefore, if you were cooking lasagna and it burned, and I came to your house which reeked of burnt Italian food, I have every right to say "Man, your house smells like shit, dude!!" But I wouldn't. Why? Respect. I'll also not point out that your sweater is ugly or your new haircut just isnt you. Again, respect.

It's also ironic that this kid and those like him value freedom and liberty above all else. Yet he wont stand in respect for the country that provides him with what he finds beloved.

So this raises the question, both for you personally and in general. Do you place respect and courtesy above utilizing your rights, or do you know when to step down from the soapbox, but the Bill of Rights back in your pocket and exercise courtesy? And what do you expect others to do?

Personally, I'd stand in respect during France's national anthem, and I detest France quite a bit. It's called respect and courtesy...oh, and I'll also respect anyone and everyone until they give me a reason not to. It saddens me that not a lot of people exercise respect and courtesy anymore.

If you truly believe in the freedoms that the Constitution provides, then you must respect his freedom to not stand during the pledge of allegiance.

Do you know the history behind the pledge? It was not invented by our founding fathers, it is a cold-war creation to make sure people were not communist-sympathizers.

Not exactly the symbol of freedom or liberty, the pledge of allegiance is still used to separate anyone who's political beliefs do not lean in the "Right" direction. Notice how you can single that kid out? He is alright as long as you don't discuss politics.

My daughter chooses not to stand for the pledge of allegiance. My wife believes she should and after a long discussion about it, we all agreed that she has the right to not.

Incidently, civics classes are almost non-existent now. The Pledge is said in school and most children believe that they will get in trouble if they don't say it (I polled my neighborhood and some friends).

I spoke to the principle of my daughter's school to make sure that kids would not get into trouble. He confirmed that. I asked why the children do not have a civics class that explains their rights, if they are told to stand and say the pledge of allegiance, they should understand why and whether they actually have to.

The principle's response was that he did not want a bunch of kids refusing to say the pledge without good reason.

Even though it is their right.

Conformity and assimilation are huge contributors to ostracization and brutality. And that was not the intent of our founding fathers.

And if my house smelled like shit, please tell me.

 

[midcan5]

Rebellion in this form is usually a youthful expression of 'look at me, see I think something is wrong, and this is how I choose to react.' People change as they grow up and then (often) realize that particular action may have been less than proper. We all did it at some time. Let it go, we often read too much into these things.

OT Funny how France comes up as hated by so many Americans? When we were there, I have to say the feeling wasn't reciprocal and they were really nice people.

 

[Taomon]

While the government can't make him stand, you have every right to state your opinion to him. Do it out of respect for this great Nation, he has done nothing to EARN your respect and everything to lose it.

Um, this type of extremist view is what underlies violence, brutality and phenomena like racism

 

[Annie]

Um, this type of extremist view is what underlies violence, brutality and phenomena like racism

How the heck do you get there from what he wrote? Speaking of 'extremism.'

 

[Taomon]

How the heck do you get there from what he wrote? Speaking of 'extremism.'

He is telling Semper Fi to address this kid for the respect of the nation. As if the nation is somehow harmed by this kid not standing during the pledge. His statement has a nationalist point of view, which can be dangerous.

Playing with fire is never a good idea. And this statement is just that. He is telling Semper Fi that it is his duty to address this.

Maybe you don't see harm in that, perhaps because you agree. But we do not know if Semper Fi will take this as a call to arms. He seems rational so I don't this secenario, but if the kid challenges Semper Fi, we do not know if he will feel pressured to defend his country by fighting this kid or worse.

Nationalism is a secular fundamentalism.

 

[Gunny]

He is telling Semper Fi to address this kid for the respect of the nation. As if the nation is somehow harmed by this kid not standing during the pledge. His statement has a nationalist point of view, which can be dangerous.

Playing with fire is never a good idea. And this statement is just that. He is telling Semper Fi that it is his duty to address this.

Maybe you don't see harm in that, perhaps because you agree. But we do not know if Semper Fi will take this as a call to arms. He seems rational so I don't this secenario, but if the kid challenges Semper Fi, we do not know if he will feel pressured to defend his country by fighting this kid or worse.

Nationalism is a secular fundamentalism.

Why is it okay for the one to express his opinion by not standing, but not okay for SF to express his opinion about the kid not standing?

Freedom of expression is not a one-way street.

Using your logic, perhaps the kid should just stand instead of possibly provoking a response? The initial action is his.

 

[Annie]

He is telling Semper Fi to address this kid for the respect of the nation. As if the nation is somehow harmed by this kid not standing during the pledge. His statement has a nationalist point of view, which can be dangerous.

Playing with fire is never a good idea. And this statement is just that. He is telling Semper Fi that it is his duty to address this.

Maybe you don't see harm in that, perhaps because you agree. But we do not know if Semper Fi will take this as a call to arms. He seems rational so I don't this secenario, but if the kid challenges Semper Fi, we do not know if he will feel pressured to defend his country by fighting this kid or worse.

Nationalism is a secular fundamentalism.

Yeah, we do 'know' because of what was said. It's a messageboard, for all we know you are a mass murderer that gets off on acting like an idealistic 18 year old.

 

[Taomon]

Why is it okay for the one to express his opinion by not standing, but not okay for SF to express his opinion about the kid not standing?

Freedom of expression is not a one-way street.

Using your logic, perhaps the kid should just stand instead of possibly provoking a response? The initial action is his.

There is nothing wrong with Semper Fi talking to this kid about his side of the issue at all. In fact, I am betting money that Semper Fi would be ethical and logical while doing so.

What I object to is someone saying that Semper Fi must do that for his country. That smacks of nationalist undertones that border on extremism and can lead to violence.

 

[Annie]

There is nothing wrong with Semper Fi talking to this kid about his side of the issue at all. In fact, I am betting money that Semper Fi would be ethical and logical while doing so.

What I object to is someone saying that Semper Fi must do that for his country. That smacks of nationalist undertones that border on extremism and can lead to violence.

Here's what RGS said:

Originally Posted by 82Marine89 View Post
While the government can't make him stand, you have every right to state your opinion to him. Do it out of respect for this great Nation, he has done nothing to EARN your respect and everything to lose it.

 

[Taomon]

Yeah, we do 'know' because of what was said. It's a messageboard, for all we know you are a mass murderer that gets off on acting like an idealistic 18 year old.

Well, I am not. Gunny is an administrator and he can certainly run a background check on me if he chose to.

I don't get off on acting idealistic, it is in my nature. I was subject to a lot of brutality in the name of enforcment of the norm and assimiliation as a youth. I was born with an ability to think conceptually and a mature spirituality.

These have led me to be confronted by groups and individuals who do not want people to consider alternatives to the cookie-cutter norm of American Life.

I have always been idealistic and always will be. People are people and even though you disagree or may even hate me, you would be able to co-exist with me in a neighborhood or at work. And that is the way it is supposed to be. Regardless of our differences.

 

[Taomon]

Here's what RGS said:

And what I objected to was this:

While the government can't make him stand, you have every right to state your opinion to him. Do it out of respect for this great Nation, he has done nothing to EARN your respect and everything to lose it.

Now do you understand?

 

[82Marine89]

Um, this type of extremist view is what underlies violence, brutality and phenomena like racism

Are you calling me a racist for these views? I would love to see you connect the dots on that one.