Republican Senator - family values!

[maineman]

You don't get it.

The point is, the GOP has presented themselves as the defenders of public morality and "family values". They are the ones that waved the the banner of "morality matters!", in the 2000 election.

Democrats, on balance, have always accepted that human beings are imperfect. They haven't made as big a deal about a perfect moral code.

So, the point is hypocrisy. Its not that humans are imperfect. Craig campaigned as a super-conservative, against the gay agenda. And it turns out, he likes gay bathroom sex.

Now, I don't care what happens to Craig. I'm not calling on him to resign. I don't think his crime - while hypocritical - was the worst thing in the world. I don't even care if he's gay. Its up to the people of Idaho to determine what happens to him.

bingo

 

[Shogun]

You don't get it.
The point is, the GOP has presented themselves as the defenders of public morality and "family values". They are the ones that waved the the banner of "morality matters!", in the 2000 election.
Democrats, on balance, have always accepted that human beings are imperfect. They haven't made as big a deal about a perfect moral code.
So, the point is hypocrisy. Its not that humans are imperfect. Craig campaigned as a super-conservative, against the gay agenda. And it turns out, he likes gay bathroom sex.
Now, I don't care what happens to Craig. I'm not calling on him to resign. I don't think his crime - while hypocritical - was the worst thing in the world. I don't even care if he's gay. Its up to the people of Idaho to determine what happens to him.

Trust me, I get it. It is more fun to don the jersey while it appears that there is shit to sling than to realize that the way you feel about hypocracy and gay republicans is exactly the way the right feels about dems who claim to be tolorant. I assure you that the next democrat with the slightest visible dirt on his sleave will recieve the same treatment as is being handed out in this thread. Does it help? Is it better to polorize those who identify with a common identity as this guy when you know damn well that it's just perpetuating a negative cycle in American politics? We all konw there are gay republicans. We all know that talking points sold to a support base reflect the will of that support base and may not reflect the lifestyle of a politician. Republicans are not alone in that truth. We have log cabin republicans, for christs sakes, who regularly vote against their best interests. Is it a total shock to see a gay republican holding the party line? really?

Perhaps a better question to ask would be how this story affects those taking a moment to dance around like a monkey while their team has a loose, temporary hold on some minute political highground. Is this any more reflective of reality than Gunny's observation about christian haters?

 

[maineman]

"we don't need too damn many more of those fucking republican perverts in the senate to be "exposed" and 60 votes after 08 will be a cakewalk!"


turnabout is fairplay, dude. The thread blossomed into the same ole recycled dialog where both sides point fingers and drudge up crap back to bill "I did not have sex with that woman" clinton. You tell me, did this thread find common ground or another round of polarization no better than GunnyL commenting on Falwell threads? Again, when the next bit of democrat drama hits the fan you'll be reacting exactly how the righties have been posting here while taking your own turn on this retarded teeter-totter. Believe it or not there are probably republicans out there who believe in a different set of morals and are not secretly prowling steam rooms and parks. Even if a fraction of the republican membership are secretly gay. At what point is this story important beyond some Gotcha Politiking? Turnabout, dude.

which, by the way, are the details even out yet besides some vague nonsequiters?

saying we don't need too many more republican perverts is not the same as saying that all republicans are perverts.

and I would LOVE to go back to a time when there was respect and collegiality in politics. But I see no reason to drop unilaterally beat any swords into plowshares....

 

[Shogun]

I watched Gunny dance last week. Are you putting on your tap dancing shoes now? You can split hairs with vocab but I'm betting you knew how this thread would be recieved by those on the right just like Gunny knew how his thread would be recieved on the left. Seems to me that a good time to find common ground instead of another reason to flock to polor sidelines is the upcoming presidential election...

that is, unless you enjoyed watching America tear itself down the middle with more interest in eating a shit sandwitch than being open to common ground.. Didn't that result in another four years of a failed president? Is temporarily poking fun at gay republicans because it's fun and makes you feel better about your personal political convictions worth another bitter, self serving election season?


"But I see no reason to drop unilaterally beat any swords into plowshares...."

perhaps you should review what the result of poloraized American politics then. Or, realize the historic reality of such apathy... I assure you, that opinion is not unique. Youll find out when the next round of lefty drama comes along.


good grief.. dont make me quote the jesus.

 

[Shogun]

by the way...

SPEAKING OF hypocrisy...


A couple of you joined in the breaking down of ole gunny after he was taken to task about his posts... even pointing out how he was able to rationalize his own behaviour... and the negativity behind generalizing... put yourself in his shoes when he reads this thread. How will he see your posts? any different than we saw his?


think about it.

 

[jillian]

"we don't need too damn many more of those fucking republican perverts in the senate to be "exposed" and 60 votes after 08 will be a cakewalk!"


RETARDED STATEMENT ALERT!


Dude.

stop it.

The premise of your first post is as glaringly stereotypical as Gunny's observation of the Falwell thread. When the story of a yet to be busted gay democrat prowling park restrooms or whatever becomes the next suprise politico flavour of the day you'll be fed these words by republicans who, rightly so, could extrapolate the actions of one person to the entire policial party after your example.

stop it.

BS!!! BS!!! BS!!!

Dems aren't running around campaigning for anti-gay marriage amendments to the Constitution or opposing gay rights or vilifying gays, while trying to play footsie with the guy in the next restroom stall. This guy did. Now, I'm sorry the republican tent is so small that a gay congressman needs to closet himself and resort to airport restrooms for solace, but they created that closet for themselves.

So it is fair to call these guys hypocrites.

It is NOT, I repeat, NOT intolerant to call them on their garbage. And, no, not every republican politician is a hypocrite, but if they're going to push policies which try to prohibit for other people the very behavior they engage in, they'd better be ready for the push-back.

And it's not just Dems saying it, real conservatives (as opposed to the radical right) are saying it too.

 

[maineman]

I watched Gunny dance last week. Are you putting on your tap dancing shoes now? You can split hairs with vocab but I'm betting you knew how this thread would be recieved by those on the right just like Gunny knew how his thread would be recieved on the left. Seems to me that a good time to find common ground instead of another reason to flock to polor sidelines is the upcoming presidential election...

that is, unless you enjoyed watching America tear itself down the middle with more interest in eating a shit sandwitch than being open to common ground.. Didn't that result in another four years of a failed president? Is temporarily poking fun at gay republicans because it's fun and makes you feel better about your personal political convictions worth another bitter, self serving election season?


"But I see no reason to drop unilaterally beat any swords into plowshares...."

perhaps you should review what the result of poloraized American politics then. Or, realize the historic reality of such apathy... I assure you, that opinion is not unique. Youll find out when the next round of lefty drama comes along.


good grief.. dont make me quote the jesus.

I hear you shogun...I really do. I just don't see how my side - or the other side, probably - can trust the OTHER side enough to drop the drawn pistol first. What have, say, republicans done to assuage the damage done by the eight year nonstop Clinton character assassination? They took the power inherent in congressional majorities and white house ownership and crammed legislation down the democrat's throats and threatened to change the senate rules to do away with filibusters. I have YET to see a fucking olive branch, let alone a signal for a truce.

 

[ReillyT]

I watched Gunny dance last week. Are you putting on your tap dancing shoes now? You can split hairs with vocab but I'm betting you knew how this thread would be recieved by those on the right just like Gunny knew how his thread would be recieved on the left. Seems to me that a good time to find common ground instead of another reason to flock to polor sidelines is the upcoming presidential election...

that is, unless you enjoyed watching America tear itself down the middle with more interest in eating a shit sandwitch than being open to common ground.. Didn't that result in another four years of a failed president? Is temporarily poking fun at gay republicans because it's fun and makes you feel better about your personal political convictions worth another bitter, self serving election season?


"But I see no reason to drop unilaterally beat any swords into plowshares...."

perhaps you should review what the result of poloraized American politics then. Or, realize the historic reality of such apathy... I assure you, that opinion is not unique. Youll find out when the next round of lefty drama comes along.


good grief.. dont make me quote the jesus.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out hypocrisy. It is, in fact, a good thing. It allows us to retain a healthy cynicism in our leaders, who by virture of the democratic system, are always inclined to tell us what they think we want to hear. I don't fault people on the right when they do it (although I may disagree whether a particular instance represents hypocrisy), and I don't fault people on the left. If it is polarizing, then perhaps it is because politics by its very nature has that tendency.

You don't want to point out hypocrisy. No one is asking you to do so. You believe that we should be above such sentiments. Prepare to be disappointed.

 

[Shogun]

"BS!!! BS!!! BS!!!
Dems aren't running around campaigning for anti-gay marriage amendments to the Constitution or opposing gay rights or vilifying gays, while trying to play footsie with the guy in the next restroom stall."

No.. the dems pretend that they are the poster child of tolorance yet all I've seen so far in this thread are generalized nonsequiters and immediate assumptions. You can rationalize your own behaviour and opinions just like those on the right. Ever stop to wonder why the dems are no more popular than the republicans these days?


"This guy did. Now, I'm sorry the republican tent is so small that a gay congressman needs to closet himself and resort to airport restrooms for solace, but they created that closet for themselves."

indeed, don't take responsibility for your own zealous assumptions since blaming REPUBLICANS is easier. Do you REALLY think that gays would stop prowling public parks and the YMCA if even republicans voted for total equality despite sexual orientation? Ever stop to think that it may be the case that this behaviour is a reflection of some other criteria besides evil 1984 conservative oppression?


"So it is fair to call these guys hypocrites."

in your opinion.. which, I'm betting is on par with Ann Coulters opinion on the fairness of gay jokes.


"It is NOT, I repeat, NOT intolerant to call them on their garbage. And, no, not every republican politician is a hypocrite, but if they're going to push policies which try to prohibit for other people the very behavior they engage in, they'd better be ready for the push-back."

You have your rally cry and so do they. I've seen lefties have their ases handed back to them on this board because they found themselves REACHING FAR to defend ideals despite the obvious bullshit factor. I know it is fun to come on a messageboard and talk shit. Stress relief, im sure. But doing so only primes this nation for another election cycle split down the middle with about as much romm at the center as the area between a WW1 trench.


"And it's not just Dems saying it, real conservatives (as opposed to the radical right) are saying it too."

post your evidence so we can see what you are calling a REAL conservative.

 

[jillian]

No.. the dems pretend that they are the poster child of tolorance yet all I've seen so far in this thread are generalized nonsequiters and immediate assumptions. You can rationalize your own behaviour and opinions just like those on the right. Ever stop to wonder why the dems are no more popular than the republicans these days?

Yup.. because they haven't gotten a veto-proof majority yet so can't accomplish anything with the incompetent in the white house.

indeed, don't take responsibility for your own zealous assumptions since blaming REPUBLICANS is easier. Do you REALLY think that gays would stop prowling public parks and the YMCA if even republicans voted for total equality despite sexual orientation? Ever stop to think that it may be the case that this behaviour is a reflection of some other criteria besides evil 1984 conservative oppression?

I'm not going to engage in a debate about homosexual activity with you. This isn't about that. It's about hypocrisy.... and when you run around claiming you're the voice of morality, it's probably a really bad idea to get caught doing the very thing you're agitating against.

in your opinion.. which, I'm betting is on par with Ann Coulters opinion on the fairness of gay jokes.

That's nuts... seriously.

You have your rally cry and so do they. I've seen lefties have their ases handed back to them on this board because they found themselves REACHING FAR to defend ideals despite the obvious bullshit factor. I know it is fun to come on a messageboard and talk shit. Stress relief, im sure. But doing so only primes this nation for another election cycle split down the middle with about as much romm at the center as the area between a WW1 trench.

You're the one I see talking shit.. .but that's ok. As you said, I'm sure it's good for your stress relief.

I love how you guys whine for bi-partisanship when it's YOU who get nailed. Yet, you keep voting for the loonies who pick the most devisive platforms possible.

post your evidence so we can see what you are calling a REAL conservative.

You can start with Joe Scarborough on his show this a.m.... he said the same thing as I did. (Unless of course you think Rush Limbaugh is a real conservative, in which case, you're so far out of touch that you may as well give it up now).

 

[Shogun]

I hear you shogun...I really do. I just don't see how my side - or the other side, probably - can trust the OTHER side enough to drop the drawn pistol first. What have, say, republicans done to assuage the damage done by the eight year nonstop Clinton character assassination? They took the power inherent in congressional majorities and white house ownership and crammed legislation down the democrat's throats and threatened to change the senate rules to do away with filibusters. I have YET to see a fucking olive branch, let alone a signal for a truce.

How about we act in a manner that helps us to forget what SIDE we are on since we are all, ultimately, on the same side? Like I said, don't make me quote the jebus. Would you give the same advice to palestine and Israel? Capitolists and Commies? What does politics from the 90s have to do with 2008? Bill wasn't totally innocent. Don't you hate it when those on the right ALWAYS bring up clinton when there is someone to blame? This too is a dead horse.

Let me remind you.. it's politics. Their motivation is to promote THEIR agenda just like the left will promote THEIR agenda while in the majority. Do you think this kind of shit is NEW to American politics? Be glad that some grizzled old bastard is not on the senate floor with a silver tipped walking cane taking swings at those who oppose his opinions. Good grief. Can you even concieve how much untility could be found in the vacuum created by the 04 polorized election? That's reason enough to buck up and play a cleaner game even if the opposition isn't mirroring your benevolence.

 

[ReillyT]

No.. the dems pretend that they are the poster child of tolorance yet all I've seen so far in this thread are generalized nonsequiters and immediate assumptions. You can rationalize your own behaviour and opinions just like those on the right. Ever stop to wonder why the dems are no more popular than the republicans these days?

Really, I don't know what the hell you are talking about, and what it has to do with hypocrisy. There is so much vitriol and so little substance to this portion of the post that I find myself unable to come up with anything that would even make sense in response.

indeed, don't take responsibility for your own zealous assumptions since blaming REPUBLICANS is easier. Do you REALLY think that gays would stop prowling public parks and the YMCA if even republicans voted for total equality despite sexual orientation? Ever stop to think that it may be the case that this behaviour is a reflection of some other criteria besides evil 1984 conservative oppression?

Talk about generalizations, non-sequitors and assumptions. I have never really believed that in the last 20 years, any substantial number of gays do prowl public parks and the YMCA. In fact, I lived in SF and am friends with quite a few gay people, and I am pretty sure they don't cruise public restrooms. However, I still don't understand what this has to do with pointing out hypocrisy, which is what we are really talking about.

in your opinion.. which, I'm betting is on par with Ann Coulters opinion on the fairness of gay jokes..

Pointing out hypocrisy is very different than the shit that Ann Coulter does. If you don't see that, than what can I say? You are a tool.

You have your rally cry and so do they. I've seen lefties have their ases handed back to them on this board because they found themselves REACHING FAR to defend ideals despite the obvious bullshit factor. I know it is fun to come on a messageboard and talk shit. Stress relief, im sure. But doing so only primes this nation for another election cycle split down the middle with about as much romm at the center as the area between a WW1 trench.

Thank you for all you are doing to heal the nation.

 

[maineman]

There are always sides. as long as there are differences of opinion as to the proper role for government in society, there will be sides.

 

[ReillyT]

How about we act in a manner that helps us to forget what SIDE we are on since we are all, ultimately, on the same side? Like I said, don't make me quote the jebus. Would you give the same advice to palestine and Israel? Capitolists and Commies? What does politics from the 90s have to do with 2008? Bill wasn't totally innocent. Don't you hate it when those on the right ALWAYS bring up clinton when there is someone to blame? This too is a dead horse.

Let me remind you.. it's politics. Their motivation is to promote THEIR agenda just like the left will promote THEIR agenda while in the majority. Do you think this kind of shit is NEW to American politics? Be glad that some grizzled old bastard is not on the senate floor with a silver tipped walking cane taking swings at those who oppose his opinions. Good grief. Can you even concieve how much untility could be found in the vacuum created by the 04 polorized election? That's reason enough to buck up and play a cleaner game even if the opposition isn't mirroring your benevolence.

What does "sides" have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that if I am a Republican, I can point out conservative hypocrisy, but not liberal, and vice versa? How about we just turn our heads to hypocrisy all around? Surely it will be a better world if we all just act oblivious to lies and bullshit. The game would be so much cleaner.

 

[Shogun]

There is nothing wrong with pointing out hypocrisy. It is, in fact, a good thing. It allows us to retain a healthy cynicism in our leaders, who by virture of the democratic system, are always inclined to tell us what they think we want to hear. I don't fault people on the right when they do it (although I may disagree whether a particular instance represents hypocrisy), and I don't fault people on the left. If it is polarizing, then perhaps it is because politics by its very nature has that tendency.

You don't want to point out hypocrisy. No one is asking you to do so. You believe that we should be above such sentiments. Prepare to be disappointed.

then prepare to play out the same cycle of world politics that rutted the greatest generation into a century of fallout that we still get to pay for. You are not pointing at YOUR LEADERS. You are pointing at REPUBLICAN leaders for the sole purpose of agitating the right. There is a phenominal difference. You are not rejecting the policy of leaders, because such policy is the reflection of his political base, so much as you are giving your political opposites another reason to pounce when it comes time for a dem to fuck up. Instead of looking for common ground regarding homosexuality in america, like how we can ALL agree that fred phelps is a fucking moron and is not representative of either side, you focus on a momentary circumstance that is no more relevant today then it will be when you forget about it in a years time and certainly no more beneficial to poke fun of than it could be if you would show the slightest interest in consideration. If you cannot see the wisdom of an olive branch then you are as much a part of the problem as sean hannity.

 

[Shogun]

"Yup.. because they haven't gotten a veto-proof majority yet so can't accomplish anything with the incompetent in the white house."

Don't make excuses. This dem majority in congress is about as impressive as a jello mold at a cement factory. 06 sure as hell wasn't a landslide. Besides, VETO PROOF MAJORITY? Even with the dems in power we should STILL have a system of checks and balances. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.



"I'm not going to engage in a debate about homosexual activity with you. This isn't about that. It's about hypocrisy.... and when you run around claiming you're the voice of morality, it's probably a really bad idea to get caught doing the very thing you're agitating against."

When you assume that the only reason homosexuals prowl in park bathrooms is "I'm sorry the republican tent is so small that a gay congressman needs to closet himself and resort to airport restrooms for solace" then, YES, you are debating the activity. Perhaps I've become the frigid water splashed in your face by asking if you can concieve of any other reason besides republican domination for such locations. Alas, it is sadly ironic that you, from the tolorant left, talk about hypocrisy.


"That's nuts... seriously.
You're the one I see talking shit.. .but that's ok. As you said, I'm sure it's good for your stress relief. "


Funny, I watched Gunny respond EXACTLY the same way when faced with eating his own joy at provoking the other team..

well, not really all that funny when one thinks about the coming election.



"I love how you guys whine for bi-partisanship when it's YOU who get nailed. Yet, you keep voting for the loonies who pick the most devisive platforms possible."

when I get nailed? praytell, elaborate. Am I all of a sudden a neocon now?



"You can start with Joe Scarborough on his show this a.m.... he said the same thing as I did. (Unless of course you think Rush Limbaugh is a real conservative, in which case, you're so far out of touch that you may as well give it up now)."

post a link.

 

[ReillyT]

then prepare to play out the same cycle of world politics that rutted the greatest generation into a century of fallout that we still get to pay for. You are not pointing at YOUR LEADERS. You are pointing at REPUBLICAN leaders for the sole purpose of agitating the right. There is a phenominal difference. You are not rejecting the policy of leaders, because such policy is the reflection of his political base, so much as you are giving your political opposites another reason to pounce when it comes time for a dem to fuck up. Instead of looking for common ground regarding homosexuality in america, like how we can ALL agree that fred phelps is a fucking moron and is not representative of either side, you focus on a momentary circumstance that is no more relevant today then it will be when you forget about it in a years time and certainly no more beneficial to poke fun of than it could be if you would show the slightest interest in consideration. If you cannot see the wisdom of an olive branch then you are as much a part of the problem as sean hannity.

Because your post was rambling, please take my responses in no particular order.

First, I am pointing at Republican hypocrites because they are hypocrites, and their actions call into question their message, which I find asinine to begin with. So you see, I question them and their policy.

You are right, policy can be a reflection of political base. However, for a person with integrity, the political base shouldn't overwhelm personal belief. When one identifies such a circumstance, one has identified a person lacking integrity. This happens to be important to know when one is talking about elected leaders.

With respect to homosexuality, the Phelps family aside, conservative republicans and I won't agree on a whole hell of a lot. Of course, their views are informed by and erected upon a certain set of moral beliefs. Therefore, it is interesting when one finds that these moral beliefs are in fact a charade.

If Republicans pounce when Democratic leaders fuck up, that is good. They should. It is healthy for the democracy that they do so. I do the same. When the Senate passed the recent legislation permitting warrantless wiretaps, I sent a letter to Harry Reid. I let him know I wasn't happy. I have no problems with a Republican sending him a letter informing him that he is a monumental hypocrite. It is fair game.

Why would you ever think that pointing out hypocrisy is off-limits? What real purpose does turning a blind eye to those of questionable integrity serve?

 

[ReillyT]

When you assume that the only reason homosexuals prowl in park bathrooms is "I'm sorry the republican tent is so small that a gay congressman needs to closet himself and resort to airport restrooms for solace" then, YES, you are debating the activity. Perhaps I've become the frigid water splashed in your face by asking if you can concieve of any other reason besides republican domination for such locations. Alas, it is sadly ironic that you, from the tolorant left, talk about hypocrisy.

Actually, she was referring to a gay Republican congressman prowling in a restroom (it is the republican tent under which the republican Senator rests) - not homosexuals in general. You see, she is debating the party and the tent, not homosexuality in general. Also, what is the irony of which you speak?

Funny, I watched Gunny respond EXACTLY the same way when faced with eating his own joy at provoking the other team..

well, not really all that funny when one thinks about the coming election..

If people right and left keep responding to you that you are nuts.... well, what is the common denominator?

 

[Bern80]

I hear you shogun...I really do. I just don't see how my side - or the other side, probably - can trust the OTHER side enough to drop the drawn pistol first. What have, say, republicans done to assuage the damage done by the eight year nonstop Clinton character assassination? They took the power inherent in congressional majorities and white house ownership and crammed legislation down the democrat's throats and threatened to change the senate rules to do away with filibusters. I have YET to see a fucking olive branch, let alone a signal for a truce.

How about thinking out side the box a bit then? Perhaps starting with the concept of 'sides'. That we have politcal parties at all I believe is half the problem. Yes there will always be people who are more conservative or more liberal, but the fact that right and left have been institutionalized doesn't lend itself well to the greater good. You're right. No one wants to be the first to put away their pistol. Tranlsation: neither side can afford to agree, or say their idea is better than mine, or whatever. It's politically sudicidal.

 

[ReillyT]

Actually Shogun, I find you so full of shit, that I would love to ask you a few questions.

An elected politician runs on a platform promising to keep the lobbies out of Washington. It is discovered that his campaign was funded by private interest lobbies. Is this relevant? Can we discuss this, or is it merely lowering the dialogue?

An elected politician runs on a platform that promises stricter gun control. It is discovered that he owns a rocket launcher and an AK-47. Is this relevant? Can we discuss this, or is it merely lowering the dialogue?

An elected politician runs on a platform of bringing honesty to Washington. It is discovered that he is plagarist. Is this relevant? Can we discuss this, or is it merely lowering the dialogue?

An elected official runs on a platform stressing bringing equality to the masses of invisible in our society. Oooopppsss, turns out he is a member of the Klan. Is this relevant? Can we discuss this, or is it merely lowering the dialogue?