Report: EU building hundreds of illegal structures for Palestinians in Area C of West Bank

[Phoenall]

Of course their side of the story is the right side.

Or is it the correct story is the one told by unbiased people who see through the LIES of islam.

 

[montelatici]

Except that it is now a part of international law and they need a permit to build. They didn't get that.

Israel does not abide by international law so this comment is moot.

HOW ABOUT A VERIFIABLE LINK FROM A NON PARTISAN SOURCE

From the clown that never provides links and invents things.

LIAR

Yes, that is exactly what you are.

 

[Phoenall]

Except that it is now a part of international law and they need a permit to build. They didn't get that.

Israel does not abide by international law so this comment is moot.

HOW ABOUT A VERIFIABLE LINK FROM A NON PARTISAN SOURCE

From the clown that never provides links and invents things.

LIAR

Yes, that is exactly what you are.

WRONG as I am not a muslim, so I cant be a LIAR, You even have a name for it don't you kithman and taqiya

 

[montelatici]

Looks like you know far more Arabic than I do. Are you a self-hating Muslim, Mustafa?

 

[Disir]

Area C is under Israeli control. Them's the facts. A permit is required. Even the EU recognizes this.

Area C is occupied by Israel and under it's control, is that what you are saying?

You heard me correctly the first time.

 

[Disir]

The EU is establishing facts on the ground in the West Bank, building hundreds of illegal structures near Ma'ale Adumim and E1 which the government does not remove because it does not want a diplomatic tangle with the Europeans, according to a report released by Regavim.

This report is just one of a number that Regavim, a right-wing organization which describes itself as a “research backed, legal advocacy organization focused on land ownership issues,” has released in recent months.

According to the group, EU support for the Palestinians has in recent years moved from “passive diplomatic and financial assistance to a situation of active cooperation in illegal building which the Palestinian Authority has been advancing unilaterally since 2000, as part of its strategic plan to create a Palestinian state de facto, while avoiding the need for negotiations with Israel.”

This week, prior to its release of its newest report, Regavim took journalists to look at a number of Beduin encampments straddling E1 as well as the Jerusalem-Jericho road. These are not temporary tent encampments as they were in years past, but rather clusters that -- in addition to tents and tin shacks -- also include more permanent structures bearing the EU logo.

According to Ari Briggs, Regavim’s international relations director, the EU logo is placed on the structures in the belief that this will prevent Israel from demolishing them.

Israel will likely not take down a building with an EU logo, because of public relations damage this would cause, as well as concern for the harm this could cause to relations with the EU, he said.

Mak.-Gen Yoav Mordechai, the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT), was in Europe this week holding talks with high level EU officials, with this issue – according to one diplomatic source – one of the topics of his conversations.

A spokesperson for COGAT, referring to the Regavim charge that it is reluctant to take down the structures because of the EU involvement, said, “The Civil Administration acts against illegal construction, and no organization is exempt from enforcement. COGAT has sent official letters to embassies and international organizations cautioning them against building illegally in Judea and Samaria.”
Report EU building hundreds of illegal structures for Palestinians in Area C of West Bank - Arab-Israeli Conflict - Jerusalem Post

How's that water coming along?

How about the purchasing olive tree scam?

What a COMPLETE JOKE YOU ARE......after the tens of thousands of homes built for Jews on Palestinian Land and the Theft of other Palestinian Land..your comment has rightly been binned into the Trash Can of History.....More Dreadful Zionist Terrorist Hypocritical Garbage we can do without

The only joke I'm seeing here is you.

 

[Roudy]

The EU is establishing facts on the ground in the West Bank, building hundreds of illegal structures near Ma'ale Adumim and E1 which the government does not remove because it does not want a diplomatic tangle with the Europeans, according to a report released by Regavim.

This report is just one of a number that Regavim, a right-wing organization which describes itself as a “research backed, legal advocacy organization focused on land ownership issues,” has released in recent months.

According to the group, EU support for the Palestinians has in recent years moved from “passive diplomatic and financial assistance to a situation of active cooperation in illegal building which the Palestinian Authority has been advancing unilaterally since 2000, as part of its strategic plan to create a Palestinian state de facto, while avoiding the need for negotiations with Israel.”

This week, prior to its release of its newest report, Regavim took journalists to look at a number of Beduin encampments straddling E1 as well as the Jerusalem-Jericho road. These are not temporary tent encampments as they were in years past, but rather clusters that -- in addition to tents and tin shacks -- also include more permanent structures bearing the EU logo.

According to Ari Briggs, Regavim’s international relations director, the EU logo is placed on the structures in the belief that this will prevent Israel from demolishing them.

Israel will likely not take down a building with an EU logo, because of public relations damage this would cause, as well as concern for the harm this could cause to relations with the EU, he said.

Mak.-Gen Yoav Mordechai, the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT), was in Europe this week holding talks with high level EU officials, with this issue – according to one diplomatic source – one of the topics of his conversations.

A spokesperson for COGAT, referring to the Regavim charge that it is reluctant to take down the structures because of the EU involvement, said, “The Civil Administration acts against illegal construction, and no organization is exempt from enforcement. COGAT has sent official letters to embassies and international organizations cautioning them against building illegally in Judea and Samaria.”
Report EU building hundreds of illegal structures for Palestinians in Area C of West Bank - Arab-Israeli Conflict - Jerusalem Post

How's that water coming along?

How about the purchasing olive tree scam?

Gentlemen, start your bulldozers!

 

[Disir]

I feel a RoccoR moment coming over me....and back in the room....fun though reading this "map war" is, sadly it’s irrelevant to the OP.

The OP states, “The EU is establishing facts on the ground in the West Bank, building hundreds of illegal structures near Ma'ale Adumim and E1 which the government does not remove because it does not want a diplomatic tangle with the Europeans, according to a report released by Regavim.”

OK, let’s look at the legality of these EU structures. I asked earlier for clarification on area C, which I think we can all agree is territory occupied by Israel since 1967 and over which Israel has control. However, Oslo accords or no Oslo accords, Israel does not have sovereignty over this area nor has it formally annexed the area (an illegal act in any event). This makes Israel an occupying power as defined by The Hague convention of 1907 subsequently incorporated into the Geneva Conventions (IV).

Still with me? Under both The Hague and Geneva conventions an occupying power must, “...ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country” (article 43 Hague)

Basically this means that Israeli law does not necessarily apply in the occupied territories so how can these structures be “illegal”?

Well we can perhaps spend a lot of time and energy debating the status of Palestine between 1948 and 1967 yet again, but to save us all the bother, ultimately the laws that applied in area C between 1948 and 1967 whatever its status, were either Jordanian (Planning Law Number 79) or British (The Town and Country Planning Law 1945).

It may come as a surprise to some that the Zionist Occupation Forces recognise (and often abuse) the Jordanian legal system within the occupied territories of Palestine, which means that the law that applies in any building and construction work is the Jordanian Planning Law number 79 of 1966

In a nutshell, this law requires any development plans to be prepared, approved, and kept up to date by local authorities and construction permits may be refused if a development conflicts with the local plan; penalties for unpermitted development may include, in extreme cases, demolition. The law provides for a High Planning Council advised by a Central Planning Department which would prepare and approve 'regional' plans, and local municipalities or groups of villages would prepare 'outline' and 'detailed' plans, to be approved by the High Planning Council and District Commission, respectively. All of these institutions exist within the PA.

Consequently as a) The EU does not recognise the Zionist Occupation of Palestine as either legal or permanent, building permits would have been sought from the PA before building work commenced. The EU structures are therefore legal under International Law and Israel knows it. This is why the structures have not been demolished.

The OP is therefore misleading and a rather pathetic attempt to somehow create equivalency between Zionist settlement building (illegal) and EU building (legal) where none exists.

Typical Hasbara BS

Not so respectfully, Challenger.

The Zionist occupation. You wouldn't recognie a Zionist if one came and bit you on your nose and screamed, "Hey, I'm a Zionist".

I have no respect for you.

You cannot build without a permit. The EU has continued to do so. Illegally. You can cry all you want. But, thems the breaks.

 

[Disir]

Except that it is now a part of international law and they need a permit to build. They didn't get that.

Israel does not abide by international law so this comment is moot.

Dear Penelope,

My suggestion is that you look for a 2004 Israeli Supreme Court decision. So, your comment is not relevant.

 

[Disir]

The EU is establishing facts on the ground in the West Bank, building hundreds of illegal structures near Ma'ale Adumim and E1 which the government does not remove because it does not want a diplomatic tangle with the Europeans, according to a report released by Regavim.

This report is just one of a number that Regavim, a right-wing organization which describes itself as a “research backed, legal advocacy organization focused on land ownership issues,” has released in recent months.

According to the group, EU support for the Palestinians has in recent years moved from “passive diplomatic and financial assistance to a situation of active cooperation in illegal building which the Palestinian Authority has been advancing unilaterally since 2000, as part of its strategic plan to create a Palestinian state de facto, while avoiding the need for negotiations with Israel.”

This week, prior to its release of its newest report, Regavim took journalists to look at a number of Beduin encampments straddling E1 as well as the Jerusalem-Jericho road. These are not temporary tent encampments as they were in years past, but rather clusters that -- in addition to tents and tin shacks -- also include more permanent structures bearing the EU logo.

According to Ari Briggs, Regavim’s international relations director, the EU logo is placed on the structures in the belief that this will prevent Israel from demolishing them.

Israel will likely not take down a building with an EU logo, because of public relations damage this would cause, as well as concern for the harm this could cause to relations with the EU, he said.

Mak.-Gen Yoav Mordechai, the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT), was in Europe this week holding talks with high level EU officials, with this issue – according to one diplomatic source – one of the topics of his conversations.

A spokesperson for COGAT, referring to the Regavim charge that it is reluctant to take down the structures because of the EU involvement, said, “The Civil Administration acts against illegal construction, and no organization is exempt from enforcement. COGAT has sent official letters to embassies and international organizations cautioning them against building illegally in Judea and Samaria.”
Report EU building hundreds of illegal structures for Palestinians in Area C of West Bank - Arab-Israeli Conflict - Jerusalem Post

How's that water coming along?

How about the purchasing olive tree scam?

Gentlemen, start your bulldozers!

That's what they want so they can play the victim. There is too much money in this shit. That's why they instigate. And that harms the people.

 

[Roudy]

The EU is establishing facts on the ground in the West Bank, building hundreds of illegal structures near Ma'ale Adumim and E1 which the government does not remove because it does not want a diplomatic tangle with the Europeans, according to a report released by Regavim.

This report is just one of a number that Regavim, a right-wing organization which describes itself as a “research backed, legal advocacy organization focused on land ownership issues,” has released in recent months.

According to the group, EU support for the Palestinians has in recent years moved from “passive diplomatic and financial assistance to a situation of active cooperation in illegal building which the Palestinian Authority has been advancing unilaterally since 2000, as part of its strategic plan to create a Palestinian state de facto, while avoiding the need for negotiations with Israel.”

This week, prior to its release of its newest report, Regavim took journalists to look at a number of Beduin encampments straddling E1 as well as the Jerusalem-Jericho road. These are not temporary tent encampments as they were in years past, but rather clusters that -- in addition to tents and tin shacks -- also include more permanent structures bearing the EU logo.

According to Ari Briggs, Regavim’s international relations director, the EU logo is placed on the structures in the belief that this will prevent Israel from demolishing them.

Israel will likely not take down a building with an EU logo, because of public relations damage this would cause, as well as concern for the harm this could cause to relations with the EU, he said.

Mak.-Gen Yoav Mordechai, the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT), was in Europe this week holding talks with high level EU officials, with this issue – according to one diplomatic source – one of the topics of his conversations.

A spokesperson for COGAT, referring to the Regavim charge that it is reluctant to take down the structures because of the EU involvement, said, “The Civil Administration acts against illegal construction, and no organization is exempt from enforcement. COGAT has sent official letters to embassies and international organizations cautioning them against building illegally in Judea and Samaria.”
Report EU building hundreds of illegal structures for Palestinians in Area C of West Bank - Arab-Israeli Conflict - Jerusalem Post

How's that water coming along?

How about the purchasing olive tree scam?

Gentlemen, start your bulldozers!

That's what they want so they can play the victim. There is too much money in this shit. That's why they instigate. And that harms the people.

Why have these specially retro fitted bulldozers if you aren't going to use them? **** world opinion.

 

[Disir]

The EU is establishing facts on the ground in the West Bank, building hundreds of illegal structures near Ma'ale Adumim and E1 which the government does not remove because it does not want a diplomatic tangle with the Europeans, according to a report released by Regavim.

This report is just one of a number that Regavim, a right-wing organization which describes itself as a “research backed, legal advocacy organization focused on land ownership issues,” has released in recent months.

According to the group, EU support for the Palestinians has in recent years moved from “passive diplomatic and financial assistance to a situation of active cooperation in illegal building which the Palestinian Authority has been advancing unilaterally since 2000, as part of its strategic plan to create a Palestinian state de facto, while avoiding the need for negotiations with Israel.”

This week, prior to its release of its newest report, Regavim took journalists to look at a number of Beduin encampments straddling E1 as well as the Jerusalem-Jericho road. These are not temporary tent encampments as they were in years past, but rather clusters that -- in addition to tents and tin shacks -- also include more permanent structures bearing the EU logo.

According to Ari Briggs, Regavim’s international relations director, the EU logo is placed on the structures in the belief that this will prevent Israel from demolishing them.

Israel will likely not take down a building with an EU logo, because of public relations damage this would cause, as well as concern for the harm this could cause to relations with the EU, he said.

Mak.-Gen Yoav Mordechai, the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT), was in Europe this week holding talks with high level EU officials, with this issue – according to one diplomatic source – one of the topics of his conversations.

A spokesperson for COGAT, referring to the Regavim charge that it is reluctant to take down the structures because of the EU involvement, said, “The Civil Administration acts against illegal construction, and no organization is exempt from enforcement. COGAT has sent official letters to embassies and international organizations cautioning them against building illegally in Judea and Samaria.”
Report EU building hundreds of illegal structures for Palestinians in Area C of West Bank - Arab-Israeli Conflict - Jerusalem Post

How's that water coming along?

How about the purchasing olive tree scam?

Gentlemen, start your bulldozers!

That's what they want so they can play the victim. There is too much money in this shit. That's why they instigate. And that harms the people.

Why have these specially retro fitted bulldozers if you aren't going to use them? **** world opinion.

Last I heard they will be bulldozed but that simply means that the EU will ***** cry. Like they do.

 

[Roudy]

The EU is establishing facts on the ground in the West Bank, building hundreds of illegal structures near Ma'ale Adumim and E1 which the government does not remove because it does not want a diplomatic tangle with the Europeans, according to a report released by Regavim.

This report is just one of a number that Regavim, a right-wing organization which describes itself as a “research backed, legal advocacy organization focused on land ownership issues,” has released in recent months.

According to the group, EU support for the Palestinians has in recent years moved from “passive diplomatic and financial assistance to a situation of active cooperation in illegal building which the Palestinian Authority has been advancing unilaterally since 2000, as part of its strategic plan to create a Palestinian state de facto, while avoiding the need for negotiations with Israel.”

This week, prior to its release of its newest report, Regavim took journalists to look at a number of Beduin encampments straddling E1 as well as the Jerusalem-Jericho road. These are not temporary tent encampments as they were in years past, but rather clusters that -- in addition to tents and tin shacks -- also include more permanent structures bearing the EU logo.

According to Ari Briggs, Regavim’s international relations director, the EU logo is placed on the structures in the belief that this will prevent Israel from demolishing them.

Israel will likely not take down a building with an EU logo, because of public relations damage this would cause, as well as concern for the harm this could cause to relations with the EU, he said.

Mak.-Gen Yoav Mordechai, the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT), was in Europe this week holding talks with high level EU officials, with this issue – according to one diplomatic source – one of the topics of his conversations.

A spokesperson for COGAT, referring to the Regavim charge that it is reluctant to take down the structures because of the EU involvement, said, “The Civil Administration acts against illegal construction, and no organization is exempt from enforcement. COGAT has sent official letters to embassies and international organizations cautioning them against building illegally in Judea and Samaria.”
Report EU building hundreds of illegal structures for Palestinians in Area C of West Bank - Arab-Israeli Conflict - Jerusalem Post

How's that water coming along?

How about the purchasing olive tree scam?

Gentlemen, start your bulldozers!

That's what they want so they can play the victim. There is too much money in this shit. That's why they instigate. And that harms the people.

Why have these specially retro fitted bulldozers if you aren't going to use them? **** world opinion.

Last I heard they will be bulldozed but that simply means that the EU will ***** cry. Like they do.

You can't count on the EU, that's for sure. Russia has invaded Ukraine and the EU is doing exactly what Europe did when Hitler invaded another country. Figuring out ways to appease and sign a fake treaty that will only make matters worse. We have a Chamberlain as president of the U.S. when we need a Churchill.

 

[Kondor3]

Not to worry.

A little arson here and there, amongst those EU-constructed shacks, and the problem is solved.

 

[Vigilante]

A few missiles go astray and that problem solved...as they take care of this mounting problem!

Syrian Army, Hezbollah Launch Attack to Capture Territory Near Golan Heights

http://freebeacon.com ^
JERUSALEM—The Syrian army and its Hezbollah ally launched a joint attack this week apparently aimed at capturing a swath of territory abutting the Israeli-held Golan Heights from rebel forces, opening a possible new front for the Israeli army to contend with. Iran, which has acknowledged sending military advisers and high-ranking officers from its Revolutionary Guard to assist in the operation, is believed to be behind the strategic move. The establishment of Hezbollah bases on Syrian territory opposite the Golan would enable the Lebanese organization to strike at Israel without risking retaliation against Lebanon. While the Syrian army is playing a...

 

[Roudy]

A few missiles go astray and that problem solved...as they take care of this mounting problem!

Syrian Army, Hezbollah Launch Attack to Capture Territory Near Golan Heights

http://freebeacon.com ^
JERUSALEM—The Syrian army and its Hezbollah ally launched a joint attack this week apparently aimed at capturing a swath of territory abutting the Israeli-held Golan Heights from rebel forces, opening a possible new front for the Israeli army to contend with. Iran, which has acknowledged sending military advisers and high-ranking officers from its Revolutionary Guard to assist in the operation, is believed to be behind the strategic move. The establishment of Hezbollah bases on Syrian territory opposite the Golan would enable the Lebanese organization to strike at Israel without risking retaliation against Lebanon. While the Syrian army is playing a...

Let Hezbollah launch an attack on Israel from Syria and that will be all Israel needs to level half of southern Syria.

 

[Challenger]

I feel a RoccoR moment coming over me....and back in the room....fun though reading this "map war" is, sadly it’s irrelevant to the OP.

The OP states, “The EU is establishing facts on the ground in the West Bank, building hundreds of illegal structures near Ma'ale Adumim and E1 which the government does not remove because it does not want a diplomatic tangle with the Europeans, according to a report released by Regavim.”

OK, let’s look at the legality of these EU structures. I asked earlier for clarification on area C, which I think we can all agree is territory occupied by Israel since 1967 and over which Israel has control. However, Oslo accords or no Oslo accords, Israel does not have sovereignty over this area nor has it formally annexed the area (an illegal act in any event). This makes Israel an occupying power as defined by The Hague convention of 1907 subsequently incorporated into the Geneva Conventions (IV).

Still with me? Under both The Hague and Geneva conventions an occupying power must, “...ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country” (article 43 Hague)

Basically this means that Israeli law does not necessarily apply in the occupied territories so how can these structures be “illegal”?

Well we can perhaps spend a lot of time and energy debating the status of Palestine between 1948 and 1967 yet again, but to save us all the bother, ultimately the laws that applied in area C between 1948 and 1967 whatever its status, were either Jordanian (Planning Law Number 79) or British (The Town and Country Planning Law 1945).

It may come as a surprise to some that the Zionist Occupation Forces recognise (and often abuse) the Jordanian legal system within the occupied territories of Palestine, which means that the law that applies in any building and construction work is the Jordanian Planning Law number 79 of 1966

In a nutshell, this law requires any development plans to be prepared, approved, and kept up to date by local authorities and construction permits may be refused if a development conflicts with the local plan; penalties for unpermitted development may include, in extreme cases, demolition. The law provides for a High Planning Council advised by a Central Planning Department which would prepare and approve 'regional' plans, and local municipalities or groups of villages would prepare 'outline' and 'detailed' plans, to be approved by the High Planning Council and District Commission, respectively. All of these institutions exist within the PA.

Consequently as a) The EU does not recognise the Zionist Occupation of Palestine as either legal or permanent, building permits would have been sought from the PA before building work commenced. The EU structures are therefore legal under International Law and Israel knows it. This is why the structures have not been demolished.

The OP is therefore misleading and a rather pathetic attempt to somehow create equivalency between Zionist settlement building (illegal) and EU building (legal) where none exists.

Typical Hasbara BS

Not so respectfully, Challenger.

...You cannot build without a permit. The EU has continued to do so. Illegally. You can cry all you want. But, thems the breaks.

Did the EU ask permission to build from the PA? if the answer is "yes" that's all the legality that's required. I'm not crying, just stating the facts.

 

[Phoenall]

Looks like you know far more Arabic than I do. Are you a self-hating Muslim, Mustafa?

Shows I have done the research into islam and the BAALESTINIANS. You being R.C. will know who BAAL was I take it, and realise why the arab muslims named themselves after him ?

 

[Phoenall]

I feel a RoccoR moment coming over me....and back in the room....fun though reading this "map war" is, sadly it’s irrelevant to the OP.

The OP states, “The EU is establishing facts on the ground in the West Bank, building hundreds of illegal structures near Ma'ale Adumim and E1 which the government does not remove because it does not want a diplomatic tangle with the Europeans, according to a report released by Regavim.”

OK, let’s look at the legality of these EU structures. I asked earlier for clarification on area C, which I think we can all agree is territory occupied by Israel since 1967 and over which Israel has control. However, Oslo accords or no Oslo accords, Israel does not have sovereignty over this area nor has it formally annexed the area (an illegal act in any event). This makes Israel an occupying power as defined by The Hague convention of 1907 subsequently incorporated into the Geneva Conventions (IV).

Still with me? Under both The Hague and Geneva conventions an occupying power must, “...ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country” (article 43 Hague)

Basically this means that Israeli law does not necessarily apply in the occupied territories so how can these structures be “illegal”?

Well we can perhaps spend a lot of time and energy debating the status of Palestine between 1948 and 1967 yet again, but to save us all the bother, ultimately the laws that applied in area C between 1948 and 1967 whatever its status, were either Jordanian (Planning Law Number 79) or British (The Town and Country Planning Law 1945).

It may come as a surprise to some that the Zionist Occupation Forces recognise (and often abuse) the Jordanian legal system within the occupied territories of Palestine, which means that the law that applies in any building and construction work is the Jordanian Planning Law number 79 of 1966

In a nutshell, this law requires any development plans to be prepared, approved, and kept up to date by local authorities and construction permits may be refused if a development conflicts with the local plan; penalties for unpermitted development may include, in extreme cases, demolition. The law provides for a High Planning Council advised by a Central Planning Department which would prepare and approve 'regional' plans, and local municipalities or groups of villages would prepare 'outline' and 'detailed' plans, to be approved by the High Planning Council and District Commission, respectively. All of these institutions exist within the PA.

Consequently as a) The EU does not recognise the Zionist Occupation of Palestine as either legal or permanent, building permits would have been sought from the PA before building work commenced. The EU structures are therefore legal under International Law and Israel knows it. This is why the structures have not been demolished.

The OP is therefore misleading and a rather pathetic attempt to somehow create equivalency between Zionist settlement building (illegal) and EU building (legal) where none exists.

Typical Hasbara BS

Not so respectfully, Challenger.

...You cannot build without a permit. The EU has continued to do so. Illegally. You can cry all you want. But, thems the breaks.

Did the EU ask permission to build from the PA? if the answer is "yes" that's all the legality that's required. I'm not crying, just stating the facts.

So if I give the local skinheads permission to build a clubhouse in your garden that is all the permission they need ?

 

[Challenger]

Looks like you know far more Arabic than I do. Are you a self-hating Muslim, Mustafa?

Shows I have done the research into islam and the BAALESTINIANS. You being R.C. will know who BAAL was I take it, and realise why the arab muslims named themselves after him ?

Interesting, you always bleat on about "Palestinian" being the original name for the Jewish population, are you now saying that was never true?