Religion and Ethics

[Grumblenuts]

Someone has to be the adult in the room.

Someday we will all grow up and outgrow these caterpillar games of pooping everywhere!

Paying attention to stuff like this seems a good start:

BREAK THE CHAIN

I'M GETTING ALERTS FOR A THREAD I'M NO LONGER INVOLVED IN.

 

[BlackSand]

he main difference is people are going through different stages of grief and recovery.

The same creatures that look different in their caterpillar stage, pupae and butterfly stages are still the same beings though their external shell or appearance changes. They even eat different diets to grow through different stages in their life cycle.

How you enjoy your relationships and journey through life depends how you see people.

If you want to waste your mental energy judging people back by how they appear and talk to you and others, that is on you.

To me, even Christians who aren't fully practicing what their faith message really means, are going through stages of growth.

I can either grow in a positive direction while helping others to grow bigger and better. Or I can stay stuck in the same negative mudslinging food fights if we just want to vent all day using the other as target practice.

We can either grow up or grow down.

I prefer to speak to the bigger person inside and better side of people.

I encourage you to do the same, for your own benefit and peace of mind.

I do not see how stooping to lower levels helps anyone. If they are venting and projecting, like a baby caterpillar pooping all over the place, the sooner we get past this phase we can move to the cocoon phase.

If people are fighting and pushing to break out of their shells, the sooner we get past that phase we can move on to growing stronger wings and flying.

These are the same creatures no matter what stage they appear at the time.

It does not help them to grow up by bashing them back.

I believe in respecting and caring for others in ways I want others to care and respect one another, including me.

Someone has to be the adult in the room.

Someday we will all grow up and outgrow these caterpillar games of pooping everywhere!

.

Whether one's path is to Heaven or Spiritual Enlightenment, it is a Journey.
For Christians ... Christ is the Light that guides them through the Darkness on their Journey

As simple as that may be ... It will still completely escape someone who chooses to deny God's Grace (or unmerited favor).

.​

 

[emilynghiem]

Believe what you want, but if you start claiming your god is the only source of all good things, it gets kinda insulting to those that don't share your devotion

The fact is, SOMEONE is right.

Atheists do EXACTLY the same thing, and you dont understand why WE would be insulted

^ Death Angel makes a fair point here
It can be just as insulting and challenging when Atheists make personal remarks against Christian Theists for their beliefs

The difference is:
Christians are expected to practice forgiveness, so when that fails, they could be attacked as hypocrites or encouraged to forgive. Christians should help each other to forgive. But atheists seeking to exploit this flaw will goad and bait them to try proving them failures.

Atheists are expected to prove their positions on facts not faith.
That argument goes equally in circles since neither existence or nonexistence of God can be provem or disproven.
So when Atheists fail at this, the same thing happens: either attack them and use this flaw to personally bait and troll.
Or try to be objective and help reason with this process: if both sides are faithbased, then why not focus on what will help reach agreement on the meanings or applications to real life that we agree are mutually beneficial and serve the best purpose?

If we agree the purpose of "seeking the Kingdom of God" means universal truth, let's seek that together, Atheist or Christian, despite our different language.

If we agree the meaning and message of Christ Jesus is Restorative Justice, let's look at the difference this approach makes by seeking Justice and Peace by MUTUAL Forgiveness and Correction by inclusion, instead of Judgment and Punishment for rejection.

BULLDOG if you would respond better by approaching this through Buddhist ethics, I believe a combination of that helps to check against abuses with Constitutional and Christian principles.

BlackSand I used to be a Moderator but had to stop due to juggling two jobs. I could go back and volunteer for the Religion and Ethics threads. Which looks like a 24/7 job in itself.

I may do better by staying as a regular member, and just mediating member to member to break up bullying fights.
Do we need a separate mediation ring to do that in? Or is it okay to do that in the middle of threads whenever a push comes to shove?

Is there a way to make a timeout rule or place, if two posters start butting heads personally, they go into timeout until they agree to stick to issues, or start a separate thread to work it out one on one before they post. If so I can volunteer to co-mediate with you to walk the two posters through a timeout like stopping a fight to make sure both are okay, and agree no more punching below the belt but what is your real issue, get it resolved, then you can go back in the ring.

Would it help to have a way to call Timeouts and walk the two headbutters through some understanding that will prevent that bullying in the future? Thanks!

 

[Grumblenuts]

Believe what you want, but if you start claiming your god is the only source of all good things, it gets kinda insulting to those that don't share your devotion

The fact is, SOMEONE is right.

Atheists do EXACTLY the same thing, and you dont understand why WE would be insulted

LOL. Theists divide themselves by asserting stuff like "The fact is, SOMEONE is right." Atheists just claim to disbelieve it all equally. Sorry some feel so insulted by that. Oh, you poor victims.

 

[BlackSand]

OL. Theists divide themselves by asserting stuff like "The fact is, SOMEONE is right." Atheists just claim to disbelieve it all equally. Sorry some feel so insulted by that. Oh, you poor victims.

.

I don't worry about the Christians, because He has them covered, complete with instructions.
Nor do I pity the Christian that lives in the Light of Christ, and is Thankful for His Blessings.
.​

 

[emilynghiem]

Believe what you want, but if you start claiming your god is the only source of all good things, it gets kinda insulting to those that don't share your devotion

The fact is, SOMEONE is right.

Atheists do EXACTLY the same thing, and you dont understand why WE would be insulted

LOL. Theists divide themselves by asserting stuff like "The fact is, SOMEONE is right." Atheists just claim to disbelieve it all equally. Sorry some feel so insulted by that. Oh, you poor victims.

Not just that Grumblenuts
What BULLDOG and @DeathAngel
Both point out is the Personal Attacks
that cause Personal Insult.
When it gets Personal and off topic
then human beings on both sides can take this personally.

Both can be argued as conflicting with their own positions:
A. If Christians are forgiving where is the forgiveness?
B. If Atheists are objective, where is the objectivity?
Both appear to fail at their own claims.

We can either use this to bait and troll and test the forgiveness/objectivity of the Mods who have to clean up complaints.

Or we can focus on more constructive approaches that don't deadlock like this.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Believe what you want, but if you start claiming your god is the only source of all good things, it gets kinda insulting to those that don't share your devotion

The fact is, SOMEONE is right.

Atheists do EXACTLY the same thing, and you dont understand why WE would be insulted

LOL. Theists divide themselves by asserting stuff like "The fact is, SOMEONE is right." Atheists just claim to disbelieve it all equally. Sorry some feel so insulted by that. Oh, you poor victims.

Not just that Grumblenuts
What BULLDOG and @DeathAngel
Both point out is the Personal Attacks
that cause Personal Insult.
When it gets Personal and off topic
then human beings on both sides can take this personally.

Both can be argued as conflicting with their own positions:
A. If Christians are forgiving where is the forgiveness?
B. If Atheists are objective, where is the objectivity?
Both appear to fail at their own claims.

We can either use this to bait and troll and test the forgiveness/objectivity of the Mods who have to clean up complaints.

Or we can focus on more constructive approaches that don't deadlock like this.

Understood, but I don't see either actually mentioning "the Personal Attacks"
I think you must be reading funny.

 

[emilynghiem]

Believe what you want, but if you start claiming your god is the only source of all good things, it gets kinda insulting to those that don't share your devotion

The fact is, SOMEONE is right.

Atheists do EXACTLY the same thing, and you dont understand why WE would be insulted

LOL. Theists divide themselves by asserting stuff like "The fact is, SOMEONE is right." Atheists just claim to disbelieve it all equally. Sorry some feel so insulted by that. Oh, you poor victims.

Not just that Grumblenuts
What BULLDOG and @DeathAngel
Both point out is the Personal Attacks
that cause Personal Insult.
When it gets Personal and off topic
then human beings on both sides can take this personally.

Both can be argued as conflicting with their own positions:
A. If Christians are forgiving where is the forgiveness?
B. If Atheists are objective, where is the objectivity?
Both appear to fail at their own claims.

We can either use this to bait and troll and test the forgiveness/objectivity of the Mods who have to clean up complaints.

Or we can focus on more constructive approaches that don't deadlock like this.

Understood, but I don't see either actually mentioning "the Personal Attacks"
I think you must be reading funny.

Sorry I thought they were both referring to complaints in general that religious threads were getting derailed by personal slams.

My understanding was people were either bringing up political slams against liberals against Christians, or personally trying to discredit Atheists or Christians instead of sticking to the topics.

Even if these personal grudges are not referenced directly in each post or thread where the derailment occurs, I thought they both were fair in pointing out the personal negativity is projected by BOTH sides onto each other, stated or not. This is dragged into threads where it is not getting resolved personally, so it gets projected over and over, even indirectly.

Sorry Grumblenuts this wasn't clear.

As for BULLDOG if you are admitting to getting entertainment encouraging or giving back what you see dished out, how can you complain? You are attracting this very thing?

There are more positive ways to give people back what they are asking for WITHOUT stooping to the same.

The difference is rising above not lowering yourself to the same level.

Then you can hold people to their own words and compel positive change for the right reasons. Usually this works when the forgiveness and respect is mutual.

If you jump into a moving river with other people flailing, you drag each other down.

If you stand on stable ground you can get better leverage to pull others to dry ground. And from there you can support a discussion without flailing around.

If your concern is not for resolving the discussion, well no wonder.

If all you care about is enjoying the flailing and failing, then you get pulled down as well.

If that's your idea of fun, enjoy it while it lasts.

I would rather have fun that uplifts and enlightens people. This mutual flailing can only get old, and is not sustainable.

Perhaps it is venting out old baggage from the past.

If there is evolution, this is our chance to prove people can evolve after all!

 

[BULLDOG]

Surely you aren't trying to compare the religious nuts on the internet with the Dalai Lama. When is the last time you saw him post something like " You're evil and love to kill babies. You deserve to suffer in hell for eternity" on a discussion board? Seems you are confusing responding in kind with bitterness.

.

The Dalai Lama is as human as you are, and the people you describe as religious nuts.
There's no need to deny a comparison based in what is equal to all.

emilynghiem ... Just pointed out the difference between the Dalai Lama, and a lot of other humans, to include you.

.​

You are right if you ignore the fact that one tends to have credibility when the other seems to be in a constant search for the next juicy conspiracy theory.

 

[BULLDOG]

Believe what you want, but if you start claiming your god is the only source of all good things, it gets kinda insulting to those that don't share your devotion

The fact is, SOMEONE is right.

Atheists do EXACTLY the same thing, and you dont understand why WE would be insulted

^ Death Angel makes a fair point here
It can be just as insulting and challenging when Atheists make personal remarks against Christian Theists for their beliefs

The difference is:
Christians are expected to practice forgiveness, so when that fails, they could be attacked as hypocrites or encouraged to forgive. Christians should help each other to forgive. But atheists seeking to exploit this flaw will goad and bait them to try proving them failures.

Atheists are expected to prove their positions on facts not faith.
That argument goes equally in circles since neither existence or nonexistence of God can be provem or disproven.
So when Atheists fail at this, the same thing happens: either attack them and use this flaw to personally bait and troll.
Or try to be objective and help reason with this process: if both sides are faithbased, then why not focus on what will help reach agreement on the meanings or applications to real life that we agree are mutually beneficial and serve the best purpose?

If we agree the purpose of "seeking the Kingdom of God" means universal truth, let's seek that together, Atheist or Christian, despite our different language.

If we agree the meaning and message of Christ Jesus is Restorative Justice, let's look at the difference this approach makes by seeking Justice and Peace by MUTUAL Forgiveness and Correction by inclusion, instead of Judgment and Punishment for rejection.

BULLDOG if you would respond better by approaching this through Buddhist ethics, I believe a combination of that helps to check against abuses with Constitutional and Christian principles.

BlackSand I used to be a Moderator but had to stop due to juggling two jobs. I could go back and volunteer for the Religion and Ethics threads. Which looks like a 24/7 job in itself.

I may do better by staying as a regular member, and just mediating member to member to break up bullying fights.
Do we need a separate mediation ring to do that in? Or is it okay to do that in the middle of threads whenever a push comes to shove?

Is there a way to make a timeout rule or place, if two posters start butting heads personally, they go into timeout until they agree to stick to issues, or start a separate thread to work it out one on one before they post. If so I can volunteer to co-mediate with you to walk the two posters through a timeout like stopping a fight to make sure both are okay, and agree no more punching below the belt but what is your real issue, get it resolved, then you can go back in the ring.

Would it help to have a way to call Timeouts and walk the two headbutters through some understanding that will prevent that bullying in the future? Thanks!

Again, you show you don't even understand what makes an atheist. Very few are on a mission to prove there is no god. I have never once said there is no god. I have only said I have never seen any reason to believe a god exists. I would personally be thrilled if credible evidence of a god were produced. Don't expect me not to laugh and ridicule those who insist their feelings are proof of god.

 

[BULLDOG]

Believe what you want, but if you start claiming your god is the only source of all good things, it gets kinda insulting to those that don't share your devotion

The fact is, SOMEONE is right.

Atheists do EXACTLY the same thing, and you dont understand why WE would be insulted

LOL. Theists divide themselves by asserting stuff like "The fact is, SOMEONE is right." Atheists just claim to disbelieve it all equally. Sorry some feel so insulted by that. Oh, you poor victims.

Not just that Grumblenuts
What BULLDOG and @DeathAngel
Both point out is the Personal Attacks
that cause Personal Insult.
When it gets Personal and off topic
then human beings on both sides can take this personally.

Both can be argued as conflicting with their own positions:
A. If Christians are forgiving where is the forgiveness?
B. If Atheists are objective, where is the objectivity?
Both appear to fail at their own claims.

We can either use this to bait and troll and test the forgiveness/objectivity of the Mods who have to clean up complaints.

Or we can focus on more constructive approaches that don't deadlock like this.

I objectively have never seen any reason to believe a god exists. If you ever present such evidence, I will join you in your belief. However, I doubt I would join you in your devotion to a god such as the one described in the bible. He seems to be a hateful and arbitrary being.

 

[Ziggy]

I have never seen any reason to believe a god exists.

That's a serious statement.
Hope? Creation? Love?

What would you have to see to believe?
What reason would you need?

Faith is not determined by reason or sight. It's more like a "knowing"
An understanding of who we are, what we are, and why we are here.
If you are "looking" for a "reason" to believe,
could you imagine a reason for seeing?

What are you looking for?
What are you waiting for?

Sincerely
Hugs

 

[BULLDOG]

I have never seen any reason to believe a god exists.

That's a serious statement.
Hope? Creation? Love?

What would you have to see to believe?
What reason would you need?

Faith is not determined by reason or sight. It's more like a "knowing"
An understanding of who we are, what we are, and why we are here.
If you are "looking" for a "reason" to believe,
could you imagine a reason for seeing?

What are you looking for?
What are you waiting for?

Sincerely
Hugs

I'm not looking for anything. I have never seen any evidence that unicorns exist. That doesn't mean I should be looking for proof of unicorns. If you start a thread describing how much unicorns have done for you, I will ask the same questions, and ridicule any silly answers you give about just having faith that they are real.

 

[Ziggy]

I have never seen any reason to believe a god exists.

That's a serious statement.
Hope? Creation? Love?

What would you have to see to believe?
What reason would you need?

Faith is not determined by reason or sight. It's more like a "knowing"
An understanding of who we are, what we are, and why we are here.
If you are "looking" for a "reason" to believe,
could you imagine a reason for seeing?

What are you looking for?
What are you waiting for?

Sincerely
Hugs

I'm not looking for anything. I have never seen any evidence that unicorns exist. That doesn't mean I should be looking for proof of unicorns. If you start a thread describing how much unicorns have done for you, I will ask the same questions, and ridicule any silly answers you give about just having faith that they are real.

What evidence do you have that I exist?

 

[BULLDOG]

I have never seen any reason to believe a god exists.

That's a serious statement.
Hope? Creation? Love?

What would you have to see to believe?
What reason would you need?

Faith is not determined by reason or sight. It's more like a "knowing"
An understanding of who we are, what we are, and why we are here.
If you are "looking" for a "reason" to believe,
could you imagine a reason for seeing?

What are you looking for?
What are you waiting for?

Sincerely
Hugs

I'm not looking for anything. I have never seen any evidence that unicorns exist. That doesn't mean I should be looking for proof of unicorns. If you start a thread describing how much unicorns have done for you, I will ask the same questions, and ridicule any silly answers you give about just having faith that they are real.

What evidence do you have that I exist?

Words on the screen indicate somebody is typing on the other end. What you write indicates what kind of person you are.

 

[Ziggy]

I have never seen any reason to believe a god exists.

That's a serious statement.
Hope? Creation? Love?

What would you have to see to believe?
What reason would you need?

Faith is not determined by reason or sight. It's more like a "knowing"
An understanding of who we are, what we are, and why we are here.
If you are "looking" for a "reason" to believe,
could you imagine a reason for seeing?

What are you looking for?
What are you waiting for?

Sincerely
Hugs

I'm not looking for anything. I have never seen any evidence that unicorns exist. That doesn't mean I should be looking for proof of unicorns. If you start a thread describing how much unicorns have done for you, I will ask the same questions, and ridicule any silly answers you give about just having faith that they are real.

What evidence do you have that I exist?

Words on the screen indicate somebody is typing on the other end. What you write indicates what kind of person you are.

What about words in a book?
If I wrote a book, would that give evidence that I exist?

Hugs

 

[BlackSand]

What about words in a book?
If I wrote a book, would that give evidence that I exist?

Hugs

.

Old Bulldog kind of stepped right into that one ...

.​

 

[Ziggy]

What about words in a book?
If I wrote a book, would that give evidence that I exist?

Hugs

.

Old Bulldog kind of stepped right into that one ...

.​

sshhh..

 

[Grumblenuts]

I have never seen any reason to believe a god exists.

That's a serious statement.
Hope? Creation? Love?

What would you have to see to believe?
What reason would you need?

Faith is not determined by reason or sight. It's more like a "knowing"
An understanding of who we are, what we are, and why we are here.
If you are "looking" for a "reason" to believe,
could you imagine a reason for seeing?

What are you looking for?
What are you waiting for?

Sincerely
Hugs

In my opinion:
"Faith is not determined by reason or sight." -- Agreed!
But no, it's not like knowing. It's like "belief." That thing we atheists admit to lacking, right upfront. Simply having faith doesn't cut it for us. Not just in reference to gods or religions either. In real, daily life. Deciding upon who to trust as one's plumber, mechanic, child's school teacher, doctor, partner,.. can only prove a wise, happy choice for one given sufficient time and experience.

If say, one's mechanic seems too good to be true at first, they likely are. Given two or three consecutive satisfactory transactions one may reasonably begin to relax a bit. As favorable evidence builds trust begins proving warranted. Besides being human nature, it behooves us to trust others to some extent initially -- to lend them some benefit of the doubt. But then we must question, research, test, and verify depending on the situation, else forever just be suckered. If every problem just looks like another pill prescription to one's family practitioner, then it's time one found a real doctor.

 

[BULLDOG]

I have never seen any reason to believe a god exists.

That's a serious statement.
Hope? Creation? Love?

What would you have to see to believe?
What reason would you need?

Faith is not determined by reason or sight. It's more like a "knowing"
An understanding of who we are, what we are, and why we are here.
If you are "looking" for a "reason" to believe,
could you imagine a reason for seeing?

What are you looking for?
What are you waiting for?

Sincerely
Hugs

I'm not looking for anything. I have never seen any evidence that unicorns exist. That doesn't mean I should be looking for proof of unicorns. If you start a thread describing how much unicorns have done for you, I will ask the same questions, and ridicule any silly answers you give about just having faith that they are real.

What evidence do you have that I exist?

Words on the screen indicate somebody is typing on the other end. What you write indicates what kind of person you are.

What about words in a book?
If I wrote a book, would that give evidence that I exist?

Hugs

If you have a point, make it.