Refugee Status

[Coyote]

So...who merits refugee status?

According to the political Right, this family's "travails" galvanized vociferous actions to grant them refugee status. And for what reason? They weren't politically or economically oppressed. They weren't persecuted for religious reasons. Their lives weren't in danger. Their home country had a law against home schooling. That was it.

German home-school family can stay in U.S. indefinitely - Washington Times


Then, you have the plight of thousands of children fleeing atrocities in Central America: murder, gangs, human trafficking and child rape.

The awful reason tens of thousands of children are seeking refuge in the United States - Vox

Children are uniquely vulnerable to gang violence. The street gangs known as "maras" — M-18 and Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13 — target kids for forced recruitment, usually in their early teenage years, but sometimes as young as kindergarten. They also forcibly recruit girls as "girlfriends," a euphemistic term for a non-consensual relationship that involves rape by one or more gang members.

These are the people that the Republicans want to alter our laws so that we can more quickly deport them back to the violence from which they fled.

It's crazy.

Immigration poll reveals partisan rift over Central American refugees | World news | theguardian.com
70% of Republicans believe these children should NOT be treated as refugees and granted assylum. But this home-schooling family should. WHY?

Pretty much ALL of Latin America is beset by official corruption and violence. Most of it derived from the drug trade. The best possible thing to do would be to legalize drugs. That would take the money out of the trade and with it 90% of the violence we see every day.

Secondly the people need to rise up and depose their corrupt governments. The US has been used as a pressure valve by the elites in Latin America for far too long. Mexico for instance is mineralogically one of the wealthiest countries on the planet. There is no reason for it to still be a third world country. None.

So long as the US accepts the unwanted and un-needed from the south, nothing will change until even the US tips under the weight of corruption.

That's just reality. No country can open its borders and maintain sovereignty.

I'm not proposing open borders - I'm just talking about this particular immediate situation. I think the entire immigration system needs a major overhaul but that's a topic for another discussion

 

[Coyote]

Or you reward them for having bad parents... Why don't their home countries clean up the mess they have allowed to grow all over Central and South America?? Could it be profit?

You aren't rewarding them - children have no choice, they don't choose to be born, they don't choose their parents.

I do agree - something needs to be done to fix the problems in their home countries - but that is a long term problem and the current immigrant crisis is an immediate one.

Profit? How so?

There has to be some reason why Central American governments are allowing these children to face such severe hardship that they would need to leave. Does the Honduran government want to clear out the barrios, or are they getting kickbacks from organized crime.

9 times out of 10, there is a profit motive for corrupt leaders that allow such horrid conditions.

I think in large part they don't care - corruption and organized crime are so huge - why would they care about children leaving? But I see what you are saying in the second part and agree, there is likely huge profits in the hands of a few.

 

[westwall]

So...who merits refugee status?

According to the political Right, this family's "travails" galvanized vociferous actions to grant them refugee status. And for what reason? They weren't politically or economically oppressed. They weren't persecuted for religious reasons. Their lives weren't in danger. Their home country had a law against home schooling. That was it.

German home-school family can stay in U.S. indefinitely - Washington Times


Then, you have the plight of thousands of children fleeing atrocities in Central America: murder, gangs, human trafficking and child rape.

The awful reason tens of thousands of children are seeking refuge in the United States - Vox


These are the people that the Republicans want to alter our laws so that we can more quickly deport them back to the violence from which they fled.

It's crazy.

Immigration poll reveals partisan rift over Central American refugees | World news | theguardian.com
70% of Republicans believe these children should NOT be treated as refugees and granted assylum. But this home-schooling family should. WHY?

Pretty much ALL of Latin America is beset by official corruption and violence. Most of it derived from the drug trade. The best possible thing to do would be to legalize drugs. That would take the money out of the trade and with it 90% of the violence we see every day.

Secondly the people need to rise up and depose their corrupt governments. The US has been used as a pressure valve by the elites in Latin America for far too long. Mexico for instance is mineralogically one of the wealthiest countries on the planet. There is no reason for it to still be a third world country. None.

So long as the US accepts the unwanted and un-needed from the south, nothing will change until even the US tips under the weight of corruption.

That's just reality. No country can open its borders and maintain sovereignty.

I'm not proposing open borders - I'm just talking about this particular immediate situation. I think the entire immigration system needs a major overhaul but that's a topic for another discussion

That's true, I just think that so long as one ONLY looks at the immediate problem there never WILL be a change, and we will be asking this same question next month, and the month after that etc.. At some point you have to stop and admit that it is madness to keep doing the same thing over and over, and institute a paradigm change.

 

[westwall]

You aren't rewarding them - children have no choice, they don't choose to be born, they don't choose their parents.

I do agree - something needs to be done to fix the problems in their home countries - but that is a long term problem and the current immigrant crisis is an immediate one.

Profit? How so?

There has to be some reason why Central American governments are allowing these children to face such severe hardship that they would need to leave. Does the Honduran government want to clear out the barrios, or are they getting kickbacks from organized crime.

9 times out of 10, there is a profit motive for corrupt leaders that allow such horrid conditions.

I think in large part they don't care - corruption and organized crime are so huge - why would they care about children leaving? But I see what you are saying in the second part and agree, there is likely huge profits in the hands of a few.

They NEED the children to leave. And they want them to take their whole families with them. The Latin American governments have squeezed the poor for so long that there are now two options, leave for the US or revolt. The powers that be are pushing them up to the US to stave off revolt.

Brazil does the same thing but they push them out into the jungle where they can build their temporary communities away from the ruling elite. But the motivation is the same, relieve the pressure that the poor are causing (figuratively speaking) so that they don't revolt.

 

[Coyote]

"Most immigrants come here to work and they work hard - legal or illegal."
Your words. So these illegals are going to work hard at what jobs? Maybe we could establish carpet factories here?

There are apparently no shortage of jobs that they are willing to do that Americans are not.

Just like the illegal German family.



That is punishing them. You've already made it clear how you feel about their parents. Sending them back into the same dangerous situation they fled from is punishing them.

Why not punish the German family for being here illegally?

I question why none of you who advocate giving these illegal invaders carte blanche are asking about our children? You all seem to want to ignore the impact an invasion of this magnitude has on those who were born here? Or should be all just pack up and move someplace we like better?

We are all immigrants or descendents of immigrants who at one time faced the same attitudes. Now we're here and have it made, so close the door.

Speak for yourself.

You know, if we would stop paying people for sitting on their asses, stop or curtail all the government administered, taxpayer funded "free" programs, you might be surprised how many Americans would suddenly want the jobs your mythology tells us these people are coming here to take.

That is a can of worms - a much more complicated situation. A lot of the jobs they take are hard work and low wage. You can't support a family in America on them, but you can send money home to your family in Mexico and it can go a lot further. When the economy tanked and immigration was down - those jobs went unfilled.

Are you ignoring the "fact" that the majority of these "refugees" are minor children who would not be permitted to work under our laws? So I ask, are we planning on reclaiming our former manufacturing glory by employing child labor?

For the third time, I'll repeat - children, as in this current crisis are a different matter and the reason for granting them refugee status is humanitarian.

 

[Coyote]

Pretty much ALL of Latin America is beset by official corruption and violence. Most of it derived from the drug trade. The best possible thing to do would be to legalize drugs. That would take the money out of the trade and with it 90% of the violence we see every day.

Secondly the people need to rise up and depose their corrupt governments. The US has been used as a pressure valve by the elites in Latin America for far too long. Mexico for instance is mineralogically one of the wealthiest countries on the planet. There is no reason for it to still be a third world country. None.

So long as the US accepts the unwanted and un-needed from the south, nothing will change until even the US tips under the weight of corruption.

That's just reality. No country can open its borders and maintain sovereignty.

I'm not proposing open borders - I'm just talking about this particular immediate situation. I think the entire immigration system needs a major overhaul but that's a topic for another discussion

That's true, I just think that so long as one ONLY looks at the immediate problem there never WILL be a change, and we will be asking this same question next month, and the month after that etc.. At some point you have to stop and admit that it is madness to keep doing the same thing over and over, and institute a paradigm change.

I agree - any solution has to address the long term problem as well as he immediate problem. Simply sending the children back into violence is not the solution, and ignoring what is going on in those countries to promote the exodus is not the solution.

 

[Rikurzhen]

For the third time, I'll repeat - children, as in this current crisis are a different matter and the reason for granting them refugee status is humanitarian.

I've had my fill with soft-hearted people. Especially the Christians and what they've done in Africa. Look, for all the soft-hearted folks, don't inflict the consequences of your soft-heatedness on your neighbors. Sell your car, take the proceeds and send them to a charity in Latin America and provide for these children in a refugee camp in Mexico.

If you want to be humanitarian, be humanitarian. Please don't use your vote to express your humanitarianism because by doing so you shift the costs onto people who disagree with you. That's a misuse of your vote.

 

[westwall]

I'm not proposing open borders - I'm just talking about this particular immediate situation. I think the entire immigration system needs a major overhaul but that's a topic for another discussion

That's true, I just think that so long as one ONLY looks at the immediate problem there never WILL be a change, and we will be asking this same question next month, and the month after that etc.. At some point you have to stop and admit that it is madness to keep doing the same thing over and over, and institute a paradigm change.

I agree - any solution has to address the long term problem as well as he immediate problem. Simply sending the children back into violence is not the solution, and ignoring what is going on in those countries to promote the exodus is not the solution.

Agreed. I do find it interesting and somewhat hopeful that the administration reached out to the churches to help with this terrible situation. That IS, after all, the churches raison d'etre.

 

[gallantwarrior]

You aren't rewarding them - children have no choice, they don't choose to be born, they don't choose their parents.

I do agree - something needs to be done to fix the problems in their home countries - but that is a long term problem and the current immigrant crisis is an immediate one.

Profit? How so?

There has to be some reason why Central American governments are allowing these children to face such severe hardship that they would need to leave. Does the Honduran government want to clear out the barrios, or are they getting kickbacks from organized crime.

9 times out of 10, there is a profit motive for corrupt leaders that allow such horrid conditions.

I think in large part they don't care - corruption and organized crime are so huge - why would they care about children leaving? But I see what you are saying in the second part and agree, there is likely huge profits in the hands of a few.

You should also consider the benefits reaped by the corrupt, the profits to be realized here, should these children be sanctioned to stay. Money will change hands, but you can count on very little falling into the hands of these children. They will be provided a subsistence existence here, if that.

 

[Coyote]

That's true, I just think that so long as one ONLY looks at the immediate problem there never WILL be a change, and we will be asking this same question next month, and the month after that etc.. At some point you have to stop and admit that it is madness to keep doing the same thing over and over, and institute a paradigm change.

I agree - any solution has to address the long term problem as well as he immediate problem. Simply sending the children back into violence is not the solution, and ignoring what is going on in those countries to promote the exodus is not the solution.

Agreed. I do find it interesting and somewhat hopeful that the administration reached out to the churches to help with this terrible situation. That IS, after all, the churches raison d'etre.

Yes - I did also, and I was really heartened when I saw churches across the US taking it up and condemning some of the hateful actions directed towards the children and moving politically and locally to help

 

[Coyote]

There has to be some reason why Central American governments are allowing these children to face such severe hardship that they would need to leave. Does the Honduran government want to clear out the barrios, or are they getting kickbacks from organized crime.

9 times out of 10, there is a profit motive for corrupt leaders that allow such horrid conditions.

I think in large part they don't care - corruption and organized crime are so huge - why would they care about children leaving? But I see what you are saying in the second part and agree, there is likely huge profits in the hands of a few.

You should also consider the benefits reaped by the corrupt, the profits to be realized here, should these children be sanctioned to stay. Money will change hands, but you can count on very little falling into the hands of these children. They will be provided a subsistence existence here, if that.

At least they would have a better chance for the future here.

 

[Coyote]

For the third time, I'll repeat - children, as in this current crisis are a different matter and the reason for granting them refugee status is humanitarian.

I've had my fill with soft-hearted people. Especially the Christians and what they've done in Africa. Look, for all the soft-hearted folks, don't inflict the consequences of your soft-heatedness on your neighbors. Sell your car, take the proceeds and send them to a charity in Latin America and provide for these children in a refugee camp in Mexico.

If you want to be humanitarian, be humanitarian. Please don't use your vote to express your humanitarianism because by doing so you shift the costs onto people who disagree with you. That's a misuse of your vote.

I have the right to use my vote any way I see fit - as do you and I suspect I would not agree with all your choices or the costs they might incur.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Yes - I did also, and I was really heartened when I saw churches across the US taking it up and condemning some of the hateful actions directed towards the children and moving politically and locally to help

Obama has been shown to be a master of the "divide and conquer" strategy. His partnership with churches works to split the religious conservative faction - some will side with their church and others will side with their nation.

 

[DigitalDrifter]

Uh, nothing has changed in Central America since the 1970s....they are now invading our country since Obama is promising them amnesty and all kinds of free shit paid for by people like me.

umh...well...so is this German family. What gives? Why the hypocrisy?

I was unaware uneducated German gang members were showing up by the boatloads at our shores overwhelming our services and demanding to be allowed to jump in front of others who respect our laws and want to become contributing Americans.
Let me know when the waves of Germans start showing up.

 

[Rikurzhen]

For the third time, I'll repeat - children, as in this current crisis are a different matter and the reason for granting them refugee status is humanitarian.

I've had my fill with soft-hearted people. Especially the Christians and what they've done in Africa. Look, for all the soft-hearted folks, don't inflict the consequences of your soft-heatedness on your neighbors. Sell your car, take the proceeds and send them to a charity in Latin America and provide for these children in a refugee camp in Mexico.

If you want to be humanitarian, be humanitarian. Please don't use your vote to express your humanitarianism because by doing so you shift the costs onto people who disagree with you. That's a misuse of your vote.

I have the right to use my vote any way I see fit - as do you and I suspect I would not agree with all your choices or the costs they might incur.

No, you don't and neither do I. You and I are in a compact, we're co-citizens to each other. When we vote we should be voting on our own vision of what is best for America, instead of using the vote to bolster our own self-images or to help foreigners at the expense of our co-citizens.

The fact that you feel you have some right to bind me to provide care for foreigners, especially when I object to doing so and most especially when I suggest a way that you can help the foreigners (sell your car) without involving me, is very troubling.

 

[Ernie S.]

You don't know that. Many are fleeing violence - uncontrolled violence in countries with some of the highest murder stats and gang violence rates and child trafficking. That's not good enough?



Not necessarily.



If that is the case, than the German family had no business coming here - they could have found safety in one of many neighboring countries without making an extended trek to find refuge in a rich country. Do you not see the hypocrisy here?

EU countries bound by treaty to extradite them back to Germany??? Yeah that's smart. Or maybe they could have moved to Palestine or Iran? Russia?

They can choose to move to any EU country. Why would they be extradited if they chose to move?

There are also closer non-EU countries: Russia, Belarus, Serbia etc - it was already pointed out that they aren't allowed to be picky.

Asylum vs refugee status The EU won't grant asylum for citizens of other EU countries.
Eastern European countries are not all that compatible with German Lutherans or Roman Catholics. Serbia for instance is about 4% Roman Catholic and about 1% all Protestant denominations. These people speak English, likely not Serbian or Russian.
Again, you seek asylum where you'll likely be granted it and refugee status in the first safe place.

 

[gallantwarrior]

I've had my fill with soft-hearted people. Especially the Christians and what they've done in Africa. Look, for all the soft-hearted folks, don't inflict the consequences of your soft-heatedness on your neighbors. Sell your car, take the proceeds and send them to a charity in Latin America and provide for these children in a refugee camp in Mexico.

If you want to be humanitarian, be humanitarian. Please don't use your vote to express your humanitarianism because by doing so you shift the costs onto people who disagree with you. That's a misuse of your vote.

I have the right to use my vote any way I see fit - as do you and I suspect I would not agree with all your choices or the costs they might incur.

No, you don't and neither do I. You and I are in a compact, we're co-citizens to each other. When we vote we should be voting on our own vision of what is best for America, instead of using the vote to bolster our own self-images or to help foreigners at the expense of our co-citizens.

The fact that you feel you have some right to bind me to provide care for foreigners, especially when I object to doing so and most especially when I suggest a way that you can help the foreigners (sell your car) without involving me, is very troubling.

Liberal lemming-think cannot be overcome with reasoned arguments, but thank you for playing!

 

[Ernie S.]

You aren't rewarding them - children have no choice, they don't choose to be born, they don't choose their parents.

I do agree - something needs to be done to fix the problems in their home countries - but that is a long term problem and the current immigrant crisis is an immediate one.

Profit? How so?

There has to be some reason why Central American governments are allowing these children to face such severe hardship that they would need to leave. Does the Honduran government want to clear out the barrios, or are they getting kickbacks from organized crime.

9 times out of 10, there is a profit motive for corrupt leaders that allow such horrid conditions.

I think in large part they don't care - corruption and organized crime are so huge - why would they care about children leaving? But I see what you are saying in the second part and agree, there is likely huge profits in the hands of a few.

If they don't care, or if they are somehow profiting by the violence, the people should rise up. It would help to be armed, I suppose. What do you think the odds are that a corrupt government would support anything akin to a second amendment in the country they are motivated to keep under totalitarian control?

Hondurans own 6.2 guns/100 citizens. The US has roughly 100 guns for 100 citizens.

 

[OKTexas]

So...who merits refugee status?

According to the political Right, this family's "travails" galvanized vociferous actions to grant them refugee status. And for what reason? They weren't politically or economically oppressed. They weren't persecuted for religious reasons. Their lives weren't in danger. Their home country had a law against home schooling. That was it.

German home-school family can stay in U.S. indefinitely - Washington Times


Then, you have the plight of thousands of children fleeing atrocities in Central America: murder, gangs, human trafficking and child rape.

The awful reason tens of thousands of children are seeking refuge in the United States - Vox

Children are uniquely vulnerable to gang violence. The street gangs known as "maras" — M-18 and Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13 — target kids for forced recruitment, usually in their early teenage years, but sometimes as young as kindergarten. They also forcibly recruit girls as "girlfriends," a euphemistic term for a non-consensual relationship that involves rape by one or more gang members.

These are the people that the Republicans want to alter our laws so that we can more quickly deport them back to the violence from which they fled.

It's crazy.

Immigration poll reveals partisan rift over Central American refugees | World news | theguardian.com
70% of Republicans believe these children should NOT be treated as refugees and granted assylum. But this home-schooling family should. WHY?

False equivalences and outright lies, good propaganda there comrade. Border Patrol interviews are saying 95% of these so called kids came because they were promised a free pass and nothing else. Children who come in with an adult are eligible for immediate deportation, why isn't your dear leader following the law?

 

[Ernie S.]

I think in large part they don't care - corruption and organized crime are so huge - why would they care about children leaving? But I see what you are saying in the second part and agree, there is likely huge profits in the hands of a few.

You should also consider the benefits reaped by the corrupt, the profits to be realized here, should these children be sanctioned to stay. Money will change hands, but you can count on very little falling into the hands of these children. They will be provided a subsistence existence here, if that.

At least they would have a better chance for the future here.

They would, for sure, but it is not my responsibility to foot the bill not your right to demand I do. I'm a pretty generous guy. You can ask any of the 4 homeless people I've taken in over the last 5 years here in Alabama.
The money? Hell I have money. That's not the point. The point is I CHOSE to provide these folks with a temporary home so they could get back on their feet.
No one is telling you not to do whatever you can to help these kids. Take up a collection if you like. I'd be happy to kick in a bit.
We're just saying it is not the governments job to take my money and give it to the victim du jour.