Record Number of Carry Permits in U.S.

[JoeB131]

I'll give them your wallet, I ain't going give a lowlife a damn thing of mine.


As far as I'm concerned, they have to take it.

Okay.. so you just escalated a minor property crime to a homicide. Good work.

 

[Polishprince]

I'll give them your wallet, I ain't going give a lowlife a damn thing of mine.


As far as I'm concerned, they have to take it.

Okay.. so you just escalated a minor property crime to a homicide. Good work.

Hardly. First of all, armed robbery isn't a "minor crime" at least here in PA. Its a grade A felony, possible 20 years and at the minimum 5.

Second, most criminals are wusses and won't shoot you anyhow.

 

[JoeB131]

Hardly. First of all, armed robbery isn't a "minor crime" at least here in PA. Its a grade A felony, possible 20 years and at the minimum 5.

And funny thing, all those guns and all those prisons, and we haven't stopped the problem.

Maybe it's time to try something else.

 

[Polishprince]

Hardly. First of all, armed robbery isn't a "minor crime" at least here in PA. Its a grade A felony, possible 20 years and at the minimum 5.

And funny thing, all those guns and all those prisons, and we haven't stopped the problem.

Maybe it's time to try something else.

Actually, we sort of did. The crime rate is still considerably less than what it was in the 1970's.

 

[2aguy]

Cars kill over 35,000 people a year.....they are worse than gun makers......accidental gun deaths were 458 in 2019.........

Cars are designed with safety in mind. Guns are designed to kill people.

A full, detailed background check for his job as a security guard.....

Obviously, it wasn't "full and detailed"... since they missed he was a crazy person.

With cars, that are designed for safety they kill 35,000 people accidentally. Guns, designed to fire a bullet, 458 killed accidentally with over 600 million in private hands.....

The numbers don't support your argument.

And if an extensive background check for a high level security job, another full, comprehensive FBI anti-terrorist background check, 3 in person interviews with trained FBI interrogators on top of that and finally, an under cover approach by other FBI agents can't find a mass public shooter, background checks will not work for a mass public shooter....you fool.

 

[2aguy]

The right to self defense against the dangerous criminal element is important for Americans. I am a senior myself, how can I go into an urban hell hole without a sidearm and expect to emerge on the other side.

I go through urban areas every day without a gun... including some really shitty areas at some points in my career... I was fine.

Gun in the home 43 times more likely to kill a household member than a bad guy.

If you don't commit a crime, they can't take your guns....and they can't lock you up.....that's how it works, you dumb ass.

We need a better standard, then. That's the point. Of course, we can't even meet that standard, can we? The National Rampage Association has so watered down background checks they miss the guy in Aurora IL who had a conviction for stabbing someone, and he was able to get a gun and give the Exit Interview From Hell.

For those who are new to this debate, joe just lied....he used a number 43 times more likely to die by your own gun.....and he knows that number is a lie.....he has been shown, over and over that that number was shown to be a lie by none other than the guy who did the research that created that number, David Kellerman. That guy was called out by academics and other researchers, he did his study over and came out with a new number...2.7 times......and yet even then, he was still called out because he still used the same flawed model to get that number......joe lied.....he continues to lie about this....

Here....the study where the guy changed his number from 43 to 2.7 and why it was still wrong....

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199310073291506

After controlling for these characteristics, we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7;

------------


Nine Myths Of Gun Control

Myth #6 "A homeowner is 43 times as likely to be killed or kill a family member as an intruder"

To suggest that science has proven that defending oneself or one's family with a gun is dangerous, gun prohibitionists repeat Dr. Kellermann's long discredited claim: "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder." [17] This fallacy , fabricated using tax dollars, is one of the most misused slogans of the anti-self-defense lobby.

The honest measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved, and the property protected not Kellermann's burglar or rapist body count.

Only 0.1% (1 in a thousand) of the defensive uses of guns results in the death of the predator. [3]

Any study, such as Kellermann' "43 times" fallacy, that only counts bodies will expectedly underestimate the benefits of gun a thousand fold.

Think for a minute. Would anyone suggest that the only measure of the benefit of law enforcement is the number of people killed by police? Of course not. The honest measure of the benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved by deaths and injuries averted, and the property protected. 65 lives protected by guns for every life lost to a gun. [2]

Kellermann recently downgraded his estimate to "2.7 times," [18] but he persisted in discredited methodology. He used a method that cannot distinguish between "cause" and "effect." His method would be like finding more diet drinks in the refrigerators of fat people and then concluding that diet drinks "cause" obesity.


Also, he studied groups with high rates of violent criminality, alcoholism, drug addiction, abject poverty, and domestic abuse .


From such a poor and violent study group he attempted to generalize his findings to normal homes

Interestingly, when Dr. Kellermann was interviewed he stated that, if his wife were attacked, he would want her to have a gun for protection.[19] Apparently, Dr. Kellermann doesn't even believe his own studies.


-----


Public Health and Gun Control: A Review



Since at least the mid-1980s, Dr. Kellermann (and associates), whose work had been heavily-funded by the CDC, published a series of studies purporting to show that persons who keep guns in the home are more likely to be victims of homicide than those who don¹t.

In a 1986 NEJM paper, Dr. Kellermann and associates, for example, claimed their "scientific research" proved that defending oneself or one¹s family with a firearm in the home is dangerous and counter productive, claiming "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder."8

In a critical review and now classic article published in the March 1994 issue of the Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia (JMAG), Dr. Edgar Suter, Chairman of Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research (DIPR), found evidence of "methodologic and conceptual errors," such as prejudicially truncated data and the listing of "the correct methodology which was described but never used by the authors."5

Moreover, the gun control researchers failed to consider and underestimated the protective benefits of guns.

Dr. Suter writes: "The true measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives and medical costs saved, the injuries prevented, and the property protected ‹ not the burglar or rapist body count.

Since only 0.1 - 0.2 percent of defensive uses of guns involve the death of the criminal, any study, such as this, that counts criminal deaths as the only measure of the protective benefits of guns will expectedly underestimate the benefits of firearms by a factor of 500 to 1,000."5

In 1993, in his landmark and much cited NEJM article (and the research, again, heavily funded by the CDC), Dr. Kellermann attempted to show again that guns in the home are a greater risk to the victims than to the assailants.4 Despite valid criticisms by reputable scholars of his previous works (including the 1986 study), Dr. Kellermann ignored the criticisms and again used the same methodology.

He also used study populations with disproportionately high rates of serious psychosocial dysfunction from three selected state counties, known to be unrepresentative of the general U.S. population.

For example,

53 percent of the case subjects had a history of a household member being arrested,

31 percent had a household history of illicit drug use, 32 percent had a household member hit or hurt in a family fight, and

17 percent had a family member hurt so seriously in a domestic altercation that prompt medical attention was required.
Moreover, both the case studies and control groups in this analysis had a very high incidence of financial instability.

In fact, in this study, gun ownership, the supposedly high risk factor for homicide was not one of the most strongly associated factors for being murdered.

Drinking, illicit drugs, living alone, history of family violence, living in a rented home were all greater individual risk factors for being murdered than a gun in the home. One must conclude there is no basis to apply the conclusions of this study to the general population.

All of these are factors that, as Dr. Suter pointed out, "would expectedly be associated with higher rates of violence and homicide."5

It goes without saying, the results of such a study on gun homicides, selecting this sort of unrepresentative population sample, nullify the authors' generalizations, and their preordained, conclusions can not be extrapolated to the general population.

Moreover, although the 1993 New England Journal of Medicine study purported to show that the homicide victims were killed with a gun ordinarily kept in the home, the fact is that as Kates and associates point out 71.1 percent of the victims were killed by assailants who did not live in the victims¹ household using guns presumably not kept in that home.6

 

[2aguy]

There was no genocide against Native Americans...

Wow. YOu actually said that with a straight face.

Yes....most Americans at the founding owned guns....you were shown the truth and duly embarrassed when you claimed you cited Michael Bellesiles as your source for your false information.......

Yeah, again, they really didn't... it's why we had to get guns from the French for the revolution, and had to mass produce them again for the Civil War.

It took 200 years because morons who think like you didn't come along until just recently....up till then, normal people understood that Free People have the right to protect themselves from criminals and an out of control government.

Actually, normal people realize you don't need enough guns to fight off the Zombies... which is why 78% of people don't own guns. Of those that remain, most would probably be fine with background checks and licenses.... But they aren't the gun industries target market. The target market are the 3% of the population who own 50% of the guns and fetishize them. They are also the most likely to produce Adam Lanza, Nick Cruz and all the other famous nutbags who shoot places up.

hen sick morons like you came along who enjoy being slaves, and enjoy the thought of sending your fellow Americans to gulags and deaths camps, so the USSC had to come in and bitch slap you with the reality that the 2nd Amendment means Americans can own and carry guns....you dumb twit.

Wow, dude, you are really mentally ill if you think anyone wants to send you to a "Gulag".

Here's the thing. According to Soviet figures, the number of people sent to the Gulags were 10 million over a period of 1928 and 1953. Then Stalin died and his successors let those folks out.

Okay. In the US, we currently have 2 million people in prison and another 7 million on parole or probation at any given time. Of course, most of those folks are poor people of color, so you don't care. 70 million have police records... Looks like having guns hasn't really stopped the kind of oppression you whine about.

You continue to lie about guns in America.....your hero, Michael Bellesiles who sold you that lie, lost his job and had to pull his research...you were shown that he lost his job, his award, and had to pull the research but you still lie about it......

 

[2aguy]

There was no genocide against Native Americans...

Wow. YOu actually said that with a straight face.

Yes....most Americans at the founding owned guns....you were shown the truth and duly embarrassed when you claimed you cited Michael Bellesiles as your source for your false information.......

Yeah, again, they really didn't... it's why we had to get guns from the French for the revolution, and had to mass produce them again for the Civil War.

It took 200 years because morons who think like you didn't come along until just recently....up till then, normal people understood that Free People have the right to protect themselves from criminals and an out of control government.

Actually, normal people realize you don't need enough guns to fight off the Zombies... which is why 78% of people don't own guns. Of those that remain, most would probably be fine with background checks and licenses.... But they aren't the gun industries target market. The target market are the 3% of the population who own 50% of the guns and fetishize them. They are also the most likely to produce Adam Lanza, Nick Cruz and all the other famous nutbags who shoot places up.

hen sick morons like you came along who enjoy being slaves, and enjoy the thought of sending your fellow Americans to gulags and deaths camps, so the USSC had to come in and bitch slap you with the reality that the 2nd Amendment means Americans can own and carry guns....you dumb twit.

Wow, dude, you are really mentally ill if you think anyone wants to send you to a "Gulag".

Here's the thing. According to Soviet figures, the number of people sent to the Gulags were 10 million over a period of 1928 and 1953. Then Stalin died and his successors let those folks out.

Okay. In the US, we currently have 2 million people in prison and another 7 million on parole or probation at any given time. Of course, most of those folks are poor people of color, so you don't care. 70 million have police records... Looks like having guns hasn't really stopped the kind of oppression you whine about.

Yes...leave it to you to compare violent criminals in our prisons, who commit rape, murder and other violent crimes, to the innocent men and women who did nothing wrong, put in prison by your hero Stalin......

 

[2aguy]

At least 3,468 brave Americans have been shot in the killing fields of Chicago so far this year. Who knows how many have been shot that the Chicago PD doesn't know about.

100,000 Americans are shot or killed every year in the entire country....

That's what happens when you have a "gun Culture".

Chicago had a sensible gun law prior to 2010, then the National Rampage Association went to court and got it struck down, and the gun industry flooded our streets with guns.

Wrong, you lie again...

According to the FBI there were 10,258 gun murders in 2019.....of those, 70-80 percent were criminals murdered by other criminals.....and of the rest, the majority were friends and family of the criminals.......

Injuries by gun?

Non-fatal injuries, from the CDC...

Nonfatal and Fatal Firearm-Related Injuries -- United States, 1993-1997

CDC non fatal gun accident.....

1993... 104,390

1994... 89,744

1995... 84,322

1996... 69,649

1997... 64,207

2001.... 17,696

2002... 17,579

2003... 18,941

2004... 16,555

2005... 15,388

2006... 14,678

2007... 15,698

2008... 17,215

2009... 18,610

2010... 14,161

2011... 14,675

2012... 17,362

2013... 16,864

2014..... 15,928

Non fatal gun injury stats from 1999......

Nonfatal and Fatal Firearm-Related Injuries -- United States, 1993-1997

1993... 104,390

1994... 89,744

1995... 84,322

1996... 69,649

1997... 64,207

 

[2aguy]

At least 3,468 brave Americans have been shot in the killing fields of Chicago so far this year. Who knows how many have been shot that the Chicago PD doesn't know about.

100,000 Americans are shot or killed every year in the entire country....

That's what happens when you have a "gun Culture".

Chicago had a sensible gun law prior to 2010, then the National Rampage Association went to court and got it struck down, and the gun industry flooded our streets with guns.

Moron....as more Americans own and carry guns our gun murder and gun crime rates went down,......you just keep lying over and over again...

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

Charts.......two charts, one for murder, one for violent crime....both going down as more people were carrying guns for self defense.

Data Reveals Murders and Violent Crime Decrease as More People Carry Guns - The Truth About Guns

Courtesy Crime Prevention Research Center


John Lott has published his Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States: 2020 and there’s lots of good news in it.

• The number of concealed handgun permits has soared to over 19.48 million – a 34% increase over 2016.
• Seventeen states no longer provide data on all the people who are legally carrying a concealed handgun because people in those states no longer need a permit to carry.
• Permits for women and minorities continue to increase at a much faster rate than for either men or whites.
• Five states now have over 1 million permit holders: Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Pennsylvania, and Texas. Florida is the first state to have over 2 million permits.

And more. On personal note, I’m proud that my own state is one of those with a million-plus. That’s particularly impressive, because the last time I checked, we were only around 700,000; about 1 in 8 adults.

Other goods news is that chart above. It shows the murder rate has declined as the CCW rate increases. That’s not news to TTAG regulars, but it’s nice to see it confirmed for yet another year. In case some gun-grabbing type wants to argue that the murder rate trend is really almost flat, so it doesn’t mean anything, take a look at the CCW vs. violent crime trend. Concealed carry is up while violent crime down.

But the trend is even more noticeable, to the point where one cannot honestly deny it.

Courtesy Crime Prevention Research Center

 

[2aguy]

Years ago not many people needed guns. Growing up, our household never had any guns. In the summer we slept with the door open and only a screen door for protection. Nobody bothered you.

NObody needs guns now. That you chose to live in a slum, that's on you, Welfare Ray.

How do gunmakers act? They are manufacturing and selling a product for a specific use. No, murder is not their intention. Target practice and self-defense are.

The gunmakers deliberately market to the gun crazies, as they are more likely to buy more guns.

View attachment 409638

There is nobody to sign off on anything. When you purchase a gun, your name is ran through a federal government background check. The gun seller doesn't make a judgement call. They either get a green light or a red light. Green means sell the gun, red means do not sell the gun.

Except a lot of them didn't wait for the green light... they were too keen to make the sale.

But again, hold them accountable for the damage they cause, they are going to make DAMNED SURE they know who they are selling to.... So when a Mutant like THIS shows up...

View attachment 409641
And wants a machine gun and a 100 round clip, you say, "Mehhhhh, maybe not."

You are lying again....gun stores do federal background checks....criminals use straw buyers who can pass any background check ....so the baby momma, the mother, the grandmother of the criminal buys the gun for them....they pass the background check, you moron......it isn't the gun stores selling to criminals, it is criminals breaking the law...

 

[2aguy]

Plenty of people need guns. The possibility of being attacked is out there, and especially if you are a senior citizen what are you supposed to do if attacked? Just die?

Give them you wallet. Nothing is worth your or anyone else's life.

An estimated 2 million crimes each year in America are foiled by gunowners.

No, they aren't. That's a myth.

Here's the real figure. The FBI claims there are 50,000 DGU's a year, with only 200 criminals being killed in self-defense with guns.

Even that number is a stretch, because it means no fatalities 99.98% of the time, which seems unlikely.

Wrong......that number isn't even close to the poorly researched National Crime Victimization Survey, you moron.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..



I’

 

[2aguy]

Hardly. First of all, armed robbery isn't a "minor crime" at least here in PA. Its a grade A felony, possible 20 years and at the minimum 5.

And funny thing, all those guns and all those prisons, and we haven't stopped the problem.

Maybe it's time to try something else.

We haven't stopped it, but we reduced it 49% for gun murder and 75% for gun crime....

The actual problem which you don't care about is democrat party judges and prosecutors who constantly release repeat gun offenders over and over again and it is these criminals who do 90% of all the shooting and gun murder.......stop them, and you reduce the gun crime rate.

 

[2aguy]

Hardly. First of all, armed robbery isn't a "minor crime" at least here in PA. Its a grade A felony, possible 20 years and at the minimum 5.

And funny thing, all those guns and all those prisons, and we haven't stopped the problem.

Maybe it's time to try something else.

How about we try keeping actual gun criminals locked up and stop letting the democrat party judges and prosecutors from releasing them...so they can shoot again...

 

[2aguy]

Hardly. First of all, armed robbery isn't a "minor crime" at least here in PA. Its a grade A felony, possible 20 years and at the minimum 5.

And funny thing, all those guns and all those prisons, and we haven't stopped the problem.

Maybe it's time to try something else.

Moron, this is why we have gun crime in democrat party controlled cities...you doofus.

A man who was accused in May of stabbing four men, killing one, on the Far North Side escaped from electronic monitoring this week and is being actively sought in Ohio, according to authorities.

Prosecutors charged Juan Torkelson, 27, with first-degree murder and three counts of attempted first-degree murder on May 30. But a Cook County judge decided to let Torkelson get out of jail on electronic monitoring by posting just $10,000 bond.
-------
Torkelson posted the $10,000 bond and went home on electronic monitoring on June 25, according to sheriff’s department records.

But deputies received an “unauthorized leave alert” Tuesday, October 27, a sheriff’s office spokesperson said. Authorities declared him AWOL the next day.

Chicago murder defendant is AWOL and on the loose, authorities say

Prosecutors charged Juan Torkelson, 27, with first-degree murder and three counts of attempted first-degree murder on May 30. But a Cook County judge decided to let Torkelson get out of jail on electronic monitoring by posting just $10,000 bond.

cwbchicago.com

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

NObody needs guns now. That you chose to live in a slum, that's on you, Welfare Ray.

No, I didn't choose to live in a slum. It was a beautiful and vibrant suburb until the Democrats ruined it. Thanks to Democrats, now I need a gun.

The gunmakers deliberately market to the gun crazies, as they are more likely to buy more guns.

How do they market to anybody? The only place you see gun ads are in gun magazines. You don't see television commercials on guns, you don't see road signs advertising guns, you don't see Walmart advertising guns in their fliers.

Except a lot of them didn't wait for the green light... they were too keen to make the sale.

But again, hold them accountable for the damage they cause, they are going to make DAMNED SURE they know who they are selling to.... So when a Mutant like THIS shows up...

And wants a machine gun and a 100 round clip, you say, "Mehhhhh, maybe not."

Which is as stupid as saying your car salesman should have known you were an alcoholic and likely to kill somebody driving drunk when he sold you a car. If you violate somebody's constitutional rights, you may find yourself in court with an expensive lawyer trying to defend you. Gun sellers do not make the call on who they sell firearms to, the government makes that call. I've had background checks. They take about five minutes at most. Nobody is so impatient they'd be willing to break the law and lose their store because they didn't want to do a background check. In fact they do them at gun shows. It's a simple and quick process.

 

[daveman]

Well, Joe hates the Constitution, because it doesn't allow the totalitarian government he so desperately desires.

This is very clear. He also believes that citizens are not constitutionally allowed to own firearms, and the founders intent is it was only for militias, in spite of the USSC stating differently.

C'mon, guys, we need to give up our freedoms because Joe's feelings are hurt!

 

[daveman]

And that's exactly why government should not be deciding on who gets a gun and who doesn't. Thanks for giving me a good example of that.

Under our Constitution, there is no way to deny him a gun. You can't violate rights based on an opinion. You can't hold trials in your living room and judge a crime that never happened yet. In our country, you are innocent until proven guilty, in spite of Democrat objections.

Sure there is.

Here's the conversation.

"I want me an AR-15 and a 100 round clip! Meh, heheheheheheh..."

"Okay, are you a member of a well-regulated Militia?"

"Um, no."

"No Gun for you!!!"

See, that was easy.

And yet in 60 years that never happened.

yet.

This tired old worn-out argument. Complete bullshit. You really think anyone's going to give up their guns because you can't fucking read?

You're destined to go through life bitter and disappointed, Comrade.

 

[daveman]

Give them you wallet. Nothing is worth your or anyone else's life.

The criminal already decided what he's stealing is worth more than his life.

 

[August West]

Give them you wallet. Nothing is worth your or anyone else's life.

The criminal already decided what he's stealing is worth more than his life.

Unless he shoots you in the back first and takes your wallet and your gun. How are you going to defend yourself against that smart guy? You have no wallet and he has 2 guns. Life isn`t a Charles Bronson movie.