Reasons for Dissension between France and USA

N

newone

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I’d like to talk about France, since it is a rubric in your newsgroup and it’s a country I know pretty well. Also, I think it’s very important to shed some light for those readers who don’t know Europe and France well, since apparently here in this newsgroup no one thinks about what I’m going to say, so as to analyze the situation well, WITHOUT HATRED toward the French, and understand why there have been such changes in foreign policy in a country that was a strong friend of the United States. I mean to talk about the existence of the far right in France, the country in Europe where it is by far the strongest. The far right creates insecurity, mistrust and worries among people in France. They threaten, insult and denigrate other politicians, including the president of the republic, who are all so used to it by now that they no longer even respond (wrongly). There is spitefulness and disgraceful drawings for example in the media they own, against those who oppose the opinions of the French “Danube of Thought”, a demagogue who encourages lowly instincts. Victims know that it’s useless to start long and costly lawsuits, as the far right practically never loses a case, or with only small sentences, and goes on to repeat the offence anyway. Judges don’t dare to or don’t want to punish them, perhaps they actually support them, we might wonder, even when they pretend to be left-wing. Only ‘they’ confiscate the voicing of opinions when they can and want to have the right to speak. In those cases, it’s only hatred that can be expressed in the media, that no one seems to (dare to) silence. Such is the deleterious state of justice and the rest.
They cry WOLF, about insecurity, but they’re the wolf. They say they’re opposed to foreign, abusive invasion. But by developing the worship of their leader, they arouse other callings from fellow countrymen, rival, jealous big shots who want to be the leaders in this ‘superman’ political ideology, thereby causing divisions in national cohesion. They say they fight ‘Islamic terrorism’, but by their racist aggressions against foreign-born communities, including Muslims (cf. recent attacks against small mosques), they give great publicity to Muslim terrorist ideology political leaders, with opportunities for media coverage and roles as victims. People then tend to listen to and side with the latter, and for fear of reprisals or out of compassion for the victims of such attacks, show sympathy and comfort for this Islam. The far right is the BEST ALLY of ISLAMISM, by fostering its propaganda. It’s all grist to each other’s mills. They need each other to make headway.
Using, twisting and corrupting symbols, they succeeded in associating their political and racist objectives, in people’s minds, with the symbol of a cross inside a circle, which represented the Aura around Jesus’ cross. So this has now become the symbol of total hatred between peoples, which they leave as their signature after their attacks. You understand this is a substitute for Nazi ideology, which was until now only found in Hitler’s swastika, and now has this ‘softer-line’, less shocking variation. In complete opposition to the Christian religion. Those stupid criminal actions don’t bring about any solution of course, and they have but one consequence, that of poisoning our daily lives.
France is the only country in the world, or in Europe at least, where over the last thirty years or so such a strong Nazi political party has developed and thrived, to the point of making it to the second round of the last presidential election, which required the mass mobilization of all other parties against it in the final vote let’s not forget. Its leaders play a different tune depending on whether they feel strong enough to express their racist wishes and ulterior motives, and say again and again that they’re against democracy in their private media, without being confronted with having to come out and say this to voters. This is the work mostly of one HIGHLY INTELLIGENT MAN - which his opponents refuse to admit, and would feel humiliated to acknowledge as such, which goes to show how stupid they are -, undoubtedly for me alas one of the most experienced and smartest among the French political class, which sometimes look like a herd of donkeys next to him. He now has a large support network both in France and abroad. To counter him, the other French politicians have chosen to respond, when he wants, where he wants, and every time they “bring him soup in a chamber pot”. It’s sad and painful to see democrats, whom he and his people of the far right despise, on their knees in front of this braggart Nazi they obey, whose career was one of a political agitator and troublemaker full of hatred for others, such as General de Gaulle back when he was alive.
He is full of self-importance now, for he has succeeding in becoming the central reference of Interior political issues. However, he has a flaw. Like all proud people, he wishes to be admired like a peacock all over the Earth, like a providential superman, and he arouses callings as I mentioned above, among others who envy him and wish to take his place. He in fact has an abominable little twin brother. They were the BEST FRIENDS of Saddam in France. They’ve managed to make into a freedom of opinion that is as honorable as another the fact of showing racist hatred, voluntarily quite visibly, toward those who are not of French origin first and then toward others, who most often shy away from responding. As if not being French or being of immigrant origin, i.e. not considered by them as French, were a crime to be denounced. This accusation that all those donkeys fear is enough to silence opponents, even those of French stock.
Naturally only the founder is allowed to say who is French and who isn’t. And are only French in his view those who’ve come out of his pants, that is no one besides himself maybe. This political party and movement is the black star of French domestic politics. Let me add that politics is like Astronomy regarding certain things, with similar laws. When a star moves close to another, even one much larger than itself, it manages to change and redirect the trajectory of the bigger one, like it or not, away from its initial desired path. And those changing the course of French democracy in recent decades are the French electors, who used to vote for other extremist but less harmful parties and now vote for this one, which has managed to even win over voters who consider themselves as Christians… Through fear or persuasion after all this time, they’ve succeeded in carrying out a ‘takeover’ (financial style) on part of France’s clergy, to secure the faithful’s ideological and electoral support for the ‘great man’.
After explaining all this, this newsgroup’s readers may understand better the changes in French foreign policy and the move away from the American traditional Atlantic allies, which is not explained to the public by supposed specialist, intelligent and well-informed journalists. The culprit IS NOT America, (and your President).

This is a humiliating fact to admit and face for the French and a shameful reality for the French democratic political class, which feels powerless and often embarrassingly dominated in debates, among other reasons why, because of anti-democratic rules and practices such as personal attacks and denigrations, which they allowed from the start.

In France, like in all other countries as a rule, the far right is A MAFIA. The neighboring country of Spain has experienced it and keeps deep traces and marks, with never-ending scars and spirit of revenge, still undemocratic habits and laws, INJUSTICES that keep reviving terrorism. Having said that, let’s not exaggerate. After all the extremist votes have been cast, their progress is rather halted now, and we can say that (for now) their influence has decreased and they’re losing ground. But sooner or later we’ll need to find a solution to this scandal that has gone on too long we think. In particular France I hope will get rid of this cancer of society, even using a scalpel if necessary. Those despicable people have brought only hatred and slander as methods in combat and debates. The only positive point is that at least the people who didn’t experience, fortunately, the dark times of Nazi occupation of France during World War II can get an idea of what it was like then.


Some weeks ago, the ‘great man’ protested with emotion against the expulsion of a Islamiq terrorist towards Algery. There would be for him an attack with freedom of thought of this last. (Including in the form of blows that one gives to women)


The same text (in german)
http://www.fes-online-akademie.de/forum/read.php?f=1&i=33&t=33
' ' ' (in french)
http://french.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=192&highlight=
 
These are the buchananite conservatives of france. Where are the french neocon globalist jew supporters? are there any? Who is this big guy of the new french fascism?
 
Also in speaking of the politics of France, it's absolutely vital to include the role that the Muslim population currently plays in that country.

What fraction of Frenchmen emulate the politics of the far right, similar to Nazi Germany? To me even 1 in 1000 seems to be a overstatement. You might have a few white skinheads in the cities but in mainstream politics absolutely no one of Western culture is advocating racial or religious inequality. No Jews or Muslims are being stripped of their rights.

Not all, but MOST of the Jew hatred in France is coming from the Muslims in France. Of every ten Frenchmen, one is an Islamist which has refused to assimiliate Western cultural values of equality and freedom of religion.

THAT'S the problem with France today. And the White culture of France is also unable to integrate the Islamic element without provoking a backlash among their immigrant population.

True, there is a rightist element, almost exclusively among the White population, which has attempted to halt immigration from the Middle East and deal with the domestic problem of Islamic Fundamentalism. But if you talk of racial hatred on a Nazi scale, the true legacy of Jew hatred now carried by the torch of Islam and it's followers.
 
I skimmed through the post (toooooo long) but from what I did see, your far right sounds like our far left.....
 
Originally posted by freeandfun1
I skimmed through the post (toooooo long) but from what I did see, your far right sounds like our far left.....

Um, the far left and far right are right next to eachother on the political spectrum aren't they?

Maybe that's why...
 
Originally posted by nycflasher
Um, the far left and far right are right next to eachother on the political spectrum aren't they?

Maybe that's why...

I consider the buchananite protectionists on this board to be just as destructive and economically stupid as liberals, if that's what you mean.
 
Originally posted by nycflasher
Um, the far left and far right are right next to eachother on the political spectrum aren't they?

Maybe that's why...


Actually you make a good point.

Politics today, especially regarding the anti-American movement, is based upon a union of extremist left and right elements.

Every anti-war demonstration in the West today, since 9-11, has included elements of both extremes:

RIGHT:

Islamic Fundamentalists
Anti-Semetic groups (ie.Neo-Nazi’s)
The Catholic Leadership
Conservative Christian Coalitions

Left:
Communists
Socialists
Union Groups (ie. Teacher’s Union)
Gay Rights Organizations
College Professors
Pot smoking hippies and a various other assortment of activists for the sake of activism

Anyway, my point is, it’s too simple just imagining:

Left ------ Center ------ Right


Imagine a two dimensional chart instead



…………………………………………….Leadership………..……………………….
……………Revolutionary………………Flexible…………………………..Dogmatic

Individual
Liberty

Each to his own
+
+
+
+
+
+
Moderated
-
-
-
-
-
-
Forced Conformity



I'm curious where you would locate certain governments among this chart.

I put Islamic Fundamentalists and the Communist Party at the bottom right of this chart, each sharing an inflexible, dogmatic politic... which leads me to place the U.S. government towards, but not all the way, to the upper left.

The extreme left and extreme right have seemed to come full circle to the bottom in a temporary comprimise, based upon the flexibility of the leadership for each.
 
Comrade, which conservative Christian organizations have you seen protesting the war? The only Christian organizations I have seen protesting the war are the liberal ones, but if there are some conservative ones out there, I'd be interested to know about them.
 
Originally posted by Comrade
Pot smoking hippies and a various other assortment of activists for the sake of activism

I know you aren't saying all pot smokers are hippies.... but.....

:rolleyes: :D
 
Originally posted by gop_jeff
Comrade, which conservative Christian organizations have you seen protesting the war? The only Christian organizations I have seen protesting the war are the liberal ones, but if there are some conservative ones out there, I'd be interested to know about them.

At some point the Christian right tips down into the bottom of the chart and falls into lockstep with Islamists and the left over the Jewish issue, which seems to take precedence over even the war on terror.


Hostility to the moderate Right of Bush comes from the Christian extreme right, one leader comes to mind, Pat Buchanan.

He published this scathing attack on Bush middle East policy as of late. Which just happens to be indistinguishable from a leftish or Islamist point of view...

http://www.amconmag.com/03_24_03/cover.html


March 24, 2003 issue
Copyright © 2003 The American Conservative



Whose War?

A neoconservative clique seeks to ensnare our country in a series of wars that are not in America’s interest.

by Patrick J. Buchanan


The War Party may have gotten its war. But it has also gotten something it did not bargain for. Its membership lists and associations have been exposed and its motives challenged. In a rare moment in U.S. journalism, Tim Russert put this question directly to Richard Perle: “Can you assure American viewers ... that we’re in this situation against Saddam Hussein and his removal for American security interests? And what would be the link in terms of Israel?”



I haven't been a regular reader of the Christian Science Monitor, but some of the headlines from today's home page certainly appear biased to the anti-war spectrum.

http://www.csmonitor.com/commentary/monitorView.html


THE MONITOR'S VIEW

A Hornet's Nest in Gaza

Israel's offensive only hurts its effort to remove Jewish settlements.


THE MONITOR'S VIEW

Nurturing Iraq's Media

The US must promote a free and independent fourth estate.


OPINION

Iraq sarin shell is not part of a secret cache

It's the dud heard 'round the world - and US should stop irresponsible speculation.



DANIEL SCHORR

Bush's path to reelection runs through Iraq

Logistical control of Iraq power transfer is one thing; emotion over a beheading is another.



And I've certainly read C.S.M. articles in the past with the same anti-Semetic, anti-war tone of Buchanan.

I believe many these fellows also belong in the bottom of the chart!
 
Originally posted by freeandfun1
I know you aren't saying all pot smokers are hippies.... but.....

:rolleyes: :D


Hehe, well I can vouch for that one.

No, there are pot smoking hippies who dance around in silly costumes over the unjust war in Iraq, and then there are spliff toking intellectuals who watch them get all worked up and laugh themselves silly over how foolish they are.

:)
 
Here's more from Pat:

"Not in our lifetimes has America been so isolated from old friends. Far worse, President Bush is being lured into a trap baited for him by these neocons that could cost him his office and cause America to forfeit years of peace won for us by the sacrifices of two generations in the Cold War."


"They charge us with anti-Semitism—i.e., a hatred of Jews for their faith, heritage, or ancestry. False. The truth is, those hurling these charges harbor a “passionate attachment” to a nation not our own that causes them to subordinate the interests of their own country and to act on an assumption that, somehow, what’s good for Israel is good for America."


"The War Party’s plan, however, had been in preparation far in advance of 9/11. And when President Bush, after defeating the Taliban, was looking for a new front in the war on terror, they put their precooked meal in front of him. Bush dug into it."


"President Bush had been warned. He was to exploit the attack of 9/11 to launch a series of wars on Arab regimes, none of which had attacked us"




If didn't know better I'd attribute these statements to a far left anti-war protestor, not a far right conservative Christian. Every point made by Pat reflects the arguments of the far anti-war left.

1. The loss of American reputation.

2. The prepatory invasion plans.

3. The exploitation of 9/11 to carry them out.

4. The Jewish conspiracy to do so.

Then again, this could very well be a quote from William Joyce, our token far right anti-Zionist.

Anyway, it's very peculiar stuff, how these elements have allied themselves.
 
Originally posted by Comrade
Hehe, well I can vouch for that one.

No, there are pot smoking hippies who dance around in silly costumes over the unjust war in Iraq, and then there are spliff toking intellectuals who watch them get all worked up and laugh themselves silly over how foolish they are.

:)


Ahhh thank you, I would fall into the second category.:D
 
Originally posted by Comrade
Hehe, well I can vouch for that one.

. . . . and then there are spliff toking intellectuals who watch them get all worked up and laugh themselves silly over how foolish they are.

:)

Hee hee.... okay, I more resemble that remark! :eek: :D ;)
 
Originally posted by Comrade
At some point the Christian right tips down into the bottom of the chart and falls into lockstep with Islamists and the left over the Jewish issue, which seems to take precedence over even the war on terror.

I agree that there is a fringe element on the Christian Right that you describe; however, I think that their "Christian" credentials are cast in doubt when they reach such a stance. Not denying their existence, but I think it's a very small fringe.

Hostility to the moderate Right of Bush comes from the Christian extreme right, one leader comes to mind, Pat Buchanan.

Buchanan is an isolationist Republican, and while he may also be the poster boy for 1990's conservative Christianity, I think his politics of isolation have dominated his thinking over the last few years. I agree with some of Buchanan's views, but I disagree with a lot of them also.

I haven't been a regular reader of the Christian Science Monitor, but some of the headlines from today's home page certainly appear biased to the anti-war spectrum.

And I've certainly read C.S.M. articles in the past with the same anti-Semetic, anti-war tone of Buchanan.

I believe many these fellows also belong in the bottom of the chart!

The CSM has been one of the more unbiased and better researched papers I've seen. I don't usually look at their home page (I get it on my PDA, which only gives me 5-6 stories a day) but I think they try to detail the issues without regard to political stands. I can't speak for their editorials, though, because I've never read them - I will have to look into that.
However, I will tell you that Christian Science is a 19th century cult-type following that mainstream Christianity rejects because its founder (Mary Baker Eddy) totally misconstrued the Bible to fit her particular teachings.
 
Originally posted by freeandfun1
I skimmed through the post (toooooo long) but from what I did see, your far right sounds like our far left.....

You know, some of these electors of political parties’ extremists, in France or everywhere else of course, are often so much stupid (and their politicians as well sometimes) that we should hang to them a chocolate medal around the neck. And they would answer : thank you.
 
Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
These are the buchananite conservatives of france. Where are the french neocon globalist jew supporters? are there any? Who is this big guy of the new french fascism?

Hello everybody
do not answer me in gibberish, please
 
gop_jeff said:
I agree that there is a fringe element on the Christian Right that you describe; however, I.......Science is a 19th century cult-type following that mainstream ....to fit her particular teachings.
There were reactions in the forums where I posted this text. But it was necessary, given the totalitarian ideology that infiltrates our habits a little more each day, and that (under a PRETEXT OF SECURITY) terrorizes individuals in their behavior or their private lives.
I believe that, as concerns France where it is most spoken about, the great majority of politicians pretend to fight the extreme right (and Judges pretend to use the arsenal of laws against it).
Although the discussion is full of barbed remarks, but the barbs have been safely covered over with cherries and strawberries. And although they appear to fight the extreme right with tooth and nail, their teeth are falling out and their nails have been recently trimmed. Not only ‘foils are tipped with a button’, but moreover they have put oranges and grapefruits on the end. It is obvious that powerful people want to give the extreme right a chance to win one day.
In any case, I felt like saying ‘for centuries and centuries’, but we musn’t exaggerate and being ridiculous. As a matter of tact, this expression should not be taken over, in particular by politicians. Thus I want to say that the History of France and of other surrouding European countries has never (except for a very brief parenthesis) had anything to do with Nazism and the Swastika. Whatever my personal origins or civil status, I have nothing whatsoever in common with them.
If some ‘Cretins’ who call themselves ‘Christians’ follow them, that is and will remain Their fault, but will never be mine.
 

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