Reason and Experience tell us that there is Evidence for a Creator

[Czernobog]

Yes. yes he was. I mean this is a Religion forum! Clearly the only people who are going to post here are going to be people who have a religion! What is wrong with you?

And doesn't his reply to me come off as someone who is frustrated and doesn't have a good answer? And he doesn't because every argument for God is fatally flawed. Not proof.

I already know what the truth is. They'll even admit it. They want to believe. My dad wants to believe he's going to see mom one day. Sorry dad. But do I tell him? No. It bothers him when I question if so I just pretend to believe, sort of. He admits no virgin births or talking snakes so he just believes there must be something. That's why it seems obvious to them because they can't imagine not. Well we can. What if not? But to them that's offending this God who hides and doesn't seem to care. And is belief necessary? Only if you believe one of the 1000 religions

And the only ones who can explain why he doesn't careare made up religions. Because if he doesn't care (generic God) then belief is not necessary and no heaven waits. Just be glad you were born to get the life you have now. No Allah awaits

Why do I care? Because I hate stupid. That's why. It's holding us back. We are 1% better than apes. Maybe we'd be 2% if we would evolve faster and drop superstitions. There was a time and maybe God is still needed because we still are very primitive in a lot of ways.

I choose to hope that our consciousness survives death, in some form. But, even if it doesn't, I am made of the same stuff as stars, and that stuff will return to those stars after my death, to, perhaps, return to combine into another life. It may not be an "afterlife", but I take comfort in knowing that even after I'm gone, I'm not really "gone".

And the cool thing is that the thing that is giving me comfort doesn't require some magic skyman; it is just based on the basic physical laws of the universe. This is why I "worship" nature. We can prove that exists.

According to scripture Jesus said that a time is coming when worship will not be restricted to a Temple but real worshippers will worship God in spirit and in truth.

I take that to mean that one day people will reject houses of worship as fake and show their love for God and celebrate life simply by being truthful.

What do you mean by saying that you worship nature?

I mean that I celebrate the beauty, and the cycles of nature, and the role that I play in those cycles.

By questioning the 1000s of religions out there you are offending god. Now pick one and shut up! Lol

Fine. I choose Pastafarianism.

 

[Czernobog]

Yes. yes he was. I mean this is a Religion forum! Clearly the only people who are going to post here are going to be people who have a religion! What is wrong with you?

And doesn't his reply to me come off as someone who is frustrated and doesn't have a good answer? And he doesn't because every argument for God is fatally flawed. Not proof.

I already know what the truth is. They'll even admit it. They want to believe. My dad wants to believe he's going to see mom one day. Sorry dad. But do I tell him? No. It bothers him when I question if so I just pretend to believe, sort of. He admits no virgin births or talking snakes so he just believes there must be something. That's why it seems obvious to them because they can't imagine not. Well we can. What if not? But to them that's offending this God who hides and doesn't seem to care. And is belief necessary? Only if you believe one of the 1000 religions

And the only ones who can explain why he doesn't careare made up religions. Because if he doesn't care (generic God) then belief is not necessary and no heaven waits. Just be glad you were born to get the life you have now. No Allah awaits

Why do I care? Because I hate stupid. That's why. It's holding us back. We are 1% better than apes. Maybe we'd be 2% if we would evolve faster and drop superstitions. There was a time and maybe God is still needed because we still are very primitive in a lot of ways.

I choose to hope that our consciousness survives death, in some form. But, even if it doesn't, I am made of the same stuff as stars, and that stuff will return to those stars after my death, to, perhaps, return to combine into another life. It may not be an "afterlife", but I take comfort in knowing that even after I'm gone, I'm not really "gone".

And the cool thing is that the thing that is giving me comfort doesn't require some magic skyman; it is just based on the basic physical laws of the universe. This is why I "worship" nature. We can prove that exists.

According to scripture Jesus said that a time is coming when worship will not be restricted to a Temple but real worshippers will worship God in spirit and in truth.

I take that to mean that one day people will reject houses of worship as fake and show their love for God and celebrate life simply by being truthful.

What do you mean by saying that you worship nature?

Atheists don't hate God we hate everything bad that comes with it and that includes the lie that God talked to anyone or sent aa son.

But in spirit I agree with your post. If there is a creator that cares he would care about the truth and being good.

Son of God is just a relational metaphor indicating rank above that of ordinary prophets who were called servants of God.


I suspect that you are reacting to the notion of God that has been perpetuated for millenia, beliefs about God that I also reject.


That being said and having accepted scientific discoveries about the universe do you still find it out of the realm of possibilities for an individual human being to have been contacted by some extraterrestrial intelligence thousands of years ago?

I will be curious to see Sealybobo's response for this, however, my response would be that, while is it not out of the realm of the possible, I find it highly unlikely. If we were in contact with extraterrestrial races 2,000 years ago, why not today? I mean, did we grab their privates, or, in some other way, offend them, so, now suddenly, they don't wanna talk to us anymore? If we had been in contact with extraterrestrials, I think it would be likely that we would still be in contact with them. So, I think the "advanced spaceman" theory is rather unlikely.

 

[hobelim]

And doesn't his reply to me come off as someone who is frustrated and doesn't have a good answer? And he doesn't because every argument for God is fatally flawed. Not proof.

I already know what the truth is. They'll even admit it. They want to believe. My dad wants to believe he's going to see mom one day. Sorry dad. But do I tell him? No. It bothers him when I question if so I just pretend to believe, sort of. He admits no virgin births or talking snakes so he just believes there must be something. That's why it seems obvious to them because they can't imagine not. Well we can. What if not? But to them that's offending this God who hides and doesn't seem to care. And is belief necessary? Only if you believe one of the 1000 religions

And the only ones who can explain why he doesn't careare made up religions. Because if he doesn't care (generic God) then belief is not necessary and no heaven waits. Just be glad you were born to get the life you have now. No Allah awaits

Why do I care? Because I hate stupid. That's why. It's holding us back. We are 1% better than apes. Maybe we'd be 2% if we would evolve faster and drop superstitions. There was a time and maybe God is still needed because we still are very primitive in a lot of ways.

I choose to hope that our consciousness survives death, in some form. But, even if it doesn't, I am made of the same stuff as stars, and that stuff will return to those stars after my death, to, perhaps, return to combine into another life. It may not be an "afterlife", but I take comfort in knowing that even after I'm gone, I'm not really "gone".

And the cool thing is that the thing that is giving me comfort doesn't require some magic skyman; it is just based on the basic physical laws of the universe. This is why I "worship" nature. We can prove that exists.

According to scripture Jesus said that a time is coming when worship will not be restricted to a Temple but real worshippers will worship God in spirit and in truth.

I take that to mean that one day people will reject houses of worship as fake and show their love for God and celebrate life simply by being truthful.

What do you mean by saying that you worship nature?

Atheists don't hate God we hate everything bad that comes with it and that includes the lie that God talked to anyone or sent aa son.

But in spirit I agree with your post. If there is a creator that cares he would care about the truth and being good.

Son of God is just a relational metaphor indicating rank above that of ordinary prophets who were called servants of God.


I suspect that you are reacting to the notion of God that has been perpetuated for millenia, beliefs about God that I also reject.


That being said and having accepted scientific discoveries about the universe do you still find it out of the realm of possibilities for an individual human being to have been contacted by some extraterrestrial intelligence thousands of years ago?

I will be curious to see Sealybobo's response for this, however, my response would be that, while is it not out of the realm of the possible, I find it highly unlikely. If we were in contact with extraterrestrial races 2,000 years ago, why not today? I mean, did we grab their privates, or, in some other way, offend them, so, now suddenly, they don't wanna talk to us anymore? If we had been in contact with extraterrestrials, I think it would be likely that we would still be in contact with them. So, I think the "advanced spaceman" theory is rather unlikely.

If you visited the earth 5000 years ago and took a sniff, you wouldn't want to return for a few thousand years either.

 

[Czernobog]

I choose to hope that our consciousness survives death, in some form. But, even if it doesn't, I am made of the same stuff as stars, and that stuff will return to those stars after my death, to, perhaps, return to combine into another life. It may not be an "afterlife", but I take comfort in knowing that even after I'm gone, I'm not really "gone".

And the cool thing is that the thing that is giving me comfort doesn't require some magic skyman; it is just based on the basic physical laws of the universe. This is why I "worship" nature. We can prove that exists.

According to scripture Jesus said that a time is coming when worship will not be restricted to a Temple but real worshippers will worship God in spirit and in truth.

I take that to mean that one day people will reject houses of worship as fake and show their love for God and celebrate life simply by being truthful.

What do you mean by saying that you worship nature?

Atheists don't hate God we hate everything bad that comes with it and that includes the lie that God talked to anyone or sent aa son.

But in spirit I agree with your post. If there is a creator that cares he would care about the truth and being good.

Son of God is just a relational metaphor indicating rank above that of ordinary prophets who were called servants of God.


I suspect that you are reacting to the notion of God that has been perpetuated for millenia, beliefs about God that I also reject.


That being said and having accepted scientific discoveries about the universe do you still find it out of the realm of possibilities for an individual human being to have been contacted by some extraterrestrial intelligence thousands of years ago?

I will be curious to see Sealybobo's response for this, however, my response would be that, while is it not out of the realm of the possible, I find it highly unlikely. If we were in contact with extraterrestrial races 2,000 years ago, why not today? I mean, did we grab their privates, or, in some other way, offend them, so, now suddenly, they don't wanna talk to us anymore? If we had been in contact with extraterrestrials, I think it would be likely that we would still be in contact with them. So, I think the "advanced spaceman" theory is rather unlikely.

If you visited the earth 5000 years ago and took a sniff, you wouldn't want to return for a few thousand years either.

Okay...and it's been a few thousand years. Hell, have have even advanced enough to send an invitation out there (Voyager). Soooo...where are they?

 

[sealybobo]

And doesn't his reply to me come off as someone who is frustrated and doesn't have a good answer? And he doesn't because every argument for God is fatally flawed. Not proof.

I already know what the truth is. They'll even admit it. They want to believe. My dad wants to believe he's going to see mom one day. Sorry dad. But do I tell him? No. It bothers him when I question if so I just pretend to believe, sort of. He admits no virgin births or talking snakes so he just believes there must be something. That's why it seems obvious to them because they can't imagine not. Well we can. What if not? But to them that's offending this God who hides and doesn't seem to care. And is belief necessary? Only if you believe one of the 1000 religions

And the only ones who can explain why he doesn't careare made up religions. Because if he doesn't care (generic God) then belief is not necessary and no heaven waits. Just be glad you were born to get the life you have now. No Allah awaits

Why do I care? Because I hate stupid. That's why. It's holding us back. We are 1% better than apes. Maybe we'd be 2% if we would evolve faster and drop superstitions. There was a time and maybe God is still needed because we still are very primitive in a lot of ways.

I choose to hope that our consciousness survives death, in some form. But, even if it doesn't, I am made of the same stuff as stars, and that stuff will return to those stars after my death, to, perhaps, return to combine into another life. It may not be an "afterlife", but I take comfort in knowing that even after I'm gone, I'm not really "gone".

And the cool thing is that the thing that is giving me comfort doesn't require some magic skyman; it is just based on the basic physical laws of the universe. This is why I "worship" nature. We can prove that exists.

According to scripture Jesus said that a time is coming when worship will not be restricted to a Temple but real worshippers will worship God in spirit and in truth.

I take that to mean that one day people will reject houses of worship as fake and show their love for God and celebrate life simply by being truthful.

What do you mean by saying that you worship nature?

Atheists don't hate God we hate everything bad that comes with it and that includes the lie that God talked to anyone or sent aa son.

But in spirit I agree with your post. If there is a creator that cares he would care about the truth and being good.

Son of God is just a relational metaphor indicating rank above that of ordinary prophets who were called servants of God.


I suspect that you are reacting to the notion of God that has been perpetuated for millenia, beliefs about God that I also reject.


That being said and having accepted scientific discoveries about the universe do you still find it out of the realm of possibilities for an individual human being to have been contacted by some extraterrestrial intelligence thousands of years ago?

I will be curious to see Sealybobo's response for this, however, my response would be that, while is it not out of the realm of the possible, I find it highly unlikely. If we were in contact with extraterrestrial races 2,000 years ago, why not today? I mean, did we grab their privates, or, in some other way, offend them, so, now suddenly, they don't wanna talk to us anymore? If we had been in contact with extraterrestrials, I think it would be likely that we would still be in contact with them. So, I think the "advanced spaceman" theory is rather unlikely.

There were aliens from other planets in our solar system and they did plant the life seed here millions of years ago before their planet went extinct. Today we would call them Martians.

They knew their planet wouldn't last forever and ours was next to sustain life but millions of years after Mars went extinct. All they could do was plant a seed that would later turn from single cell organisms to two the fish the US.

 

[PK1]

What truth are you referring to?

The kind none of your kind wants to hear.

Subjective "truth" [sic] = fantasy.
Also known as wishful thinking, esp when one imagines they have a "relationship" with a "personal" god.

I am not an atheist, but i have not experienced any rational evidence for a theistic position. The teleological argument is naive.

Objective truth = reality
How do you know I don't? Because you don't? We all do, most just don't realize it.

If you are not an atheist and you don't have any rational evidence for a theistic position, does that mean you believe you are an agnostic? Because if that were true would not only limit your argument to those that believe, you would also be arguing against non-belief. By definition an agnostic is a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

Philosophically, i am an ignostic about "God" claims.
As a real scientist, i am agnostic about all claims regarding a god. I disagree with atheists as well as theists.

Objective & rational evidence about rational concepts are my guides.
Agnosticism = no belief without knowledge.
This famous statement is an example:
"When asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know."

Really? Can you send me a link to one of your posts that shows you disagreeing with an atheist? Because if none exist, then do you really believe you have been objective in our conversations. In fact, since you are a real scientist, maybe what you should do it plot up the number of times you have argued with believers and non-believers and see if there is a trend. What do I know though, I'm just a lowly engineer who applies science in commercial real world applications, right?

If you are like most engineers i know, you probably lack a broad education that includes general philosophy (ontology, epistemology, mind, etc), philosophy of science, biology, psychology & other social sciences.
Since i focus on rational evidence when forming beliefs, i can be considered a "weak atheist" as well as an agnostic.
You too are a weak atheist.

FYI, I posted a basic lesson on atheism and our theistic difference in the other thread "Is there a God?" ...
.

 

[hobelim]

According to scripture Jesus said that a time is coming when worship will not be restricted to a Temple but real worshippers will worship God in spirit and in truth.

I take that to mean that one day people will reject houses of worship as fake and show their love for God and celebrate life simply by being truthful.

What do you mean by saying that you worship nature?

Atheists don't hate God we hate everything bad that comes with it and that includes the lie that God talked to anyone or sent aa son.

But in spirit I agree with your post. If there is a creator that cares he would care about the truth and being good.

Son of God is just a relational metaphor indicating rank above that of ordinary prophets who were called servants of God.


I suspect that you are reacting to the notion of God that has been perpetuated for millenia, beliefs about God that I also reject.


That being said and having accepted scientific discoveries about the universe do you still find it out of the realm of possibilities for an individual human being to have been contacted by some extraterrestrial intelligence thousands of years ago?

I will be curious to see Sealybobo's response for this, however, my response would be that, while is it not out of the realm of the possible, I find it highly unlikely. If we were in contact with extraterrestrial races 2,000 years ago, why not today? I mean, did we grab their privates, or, in some other way, offend them, so, now suddenly, they don't wanna talk to us anymore? If we had been in contact with extraterrestrials, I think it would be likely that we would still be in contact with them. So, I think the "advanced spaceman" theory is rather unlikely.

If you visited the earth 5000 years ago and took a sniff, you wouldn't want to return for a few thousand years either.

Okay...and it's been a few thousand years. Hell, have have even advanced enough to send an invitation out there (Voyager). Soooo...where are they?

Sending voyager into space to try to talk to another civilization was like trying to talk to a whale by throwing a rock into the sea.


Advance extraterrestrial lifeforms would not necessarily have to be here or travel here physically to communicate with a receptive mind especially if those intelligences are of another dimension or realm of intelligent life..If it is true that there are lifeforms that are incorporeal in nature as scripture reports then they would have access to and dominion over what is incorporeal in man, the mind, and would not be restricted in anyway by space or time or the laws that restrict humans by virtue of their physical nature which is a part of the material universe..


Aside from that If there are advanced intelligences capable of traveling across the universe then they were already well aware of life developing on earth long before a human being ever wondered what a fart was...


You ask where are they? Perhaps they can only be seen by their effects in the same way one can only see the wind by the effect it has on the leaves of the trees.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that certain people throughout history have advanced or benefitted the species with an idea. Perhaps the many people who attributed their inspiration to a dream or a muse were people influenced by a superior intelligence like Moses was influenced to introduce divine law which teaches people to distinguish between clean and unclean, right and wrong, true and false, and life and death.

 

[Czernobog]

Atheists don't hate God we hate everything bad that comes with it and that includes the lie that God talked to anyone or sent aa son.

But in spirit I agree with your post. If there is a creator that cares he would care about the truth and being good.

Son of God is just a relational metaphor indicating rank above that of ordinary prophets who were called servants of God.


I suspect that you are reacting to the notion of God that has been perpetuated for millenia, beliefs about God that I also reject.


That being said and having accepted scientific discoveries about the universe do you still find it out of the realm of possibilities for an individual human being to have been contacted by some extraterrestrial intelligence thousands of years ago?

I will be curious to see Sealybobo's response for this, however, my response would be that, while is it not out of the realm of the possible, I find it highly unlikely. If we were in contact with extraterrestrial races 2,000 years ago, why not today? I mean, did we grab their privates, or, in some other way, offend them, so, now suddenly, they don't wanna talk to us anymore? If we had been in contact with extraterrestrials, I think it would be likely that we would still be in contact with them. So, I think the "advanced spaceman" theory is rather unlikely.

If you visited the earth 5000 years ago and took a sniff, you wouldn't want to return for a few thousand years either.

Okay...and it's been a few thousand years. Hell, have have even advanced enough to send an invitation out there (Voyager). Soooo...where are they?

Sending voyager into space to try to talk to another civilization was like trying to talk to a whale by throwing a rock into the sea.


Advance extraterrestrial lifeforms would not necessarily have to be here or travel here physically to communicate with a receptive mind especially if those intelligences are of another dimension or realm of intelligent life..If it is true that there are lifeforms that are incorporeal in nature as scripture reports then they would have access to and dominion over what is incorporeal in man, the mind, and would not be restricted in anyway by space or time or the laws that restrict humans by virtue of their physical nature which is a part of the material universe..


Aside from that If there are advanced intelligences capable of traveling across the universe then they were already well aware of life developing on earth long before a human being ever wondered what a fart was...


You ask where are they? Perhaps they can only be seen by their effects in the same way one can only see the wind by the effect it has on the leaves of the trees.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that certain people throughout history have advanced or benefitted the species with an idea. Perhaps the many people who attributed their inspiration to a dream or a muse were people influenced by a superior intelligence like Moses was influenced to introduce divine law which teaches people to distinguish between clean and unclean, right and wrong, true and false, and life and death.

And it is at this point that your "aliens" require exactly the same amount of intellect suspending faith. I prefer to deal with objective reality to subjective faith. Sorry.

 

[hobelim]

Son of God is just a relational metaphor indicating rank above that of ordinary prophets who were called servants of God.


I suspect that you are reacting to the notion of God that has been perpetuated for millenia, beliefs about God that I also reject.


That being said and having accepted scientific discoveries about the universe do you still find it out of the realm of possibilities for an individual human being to have been contacted by some extraterrestrial intelligence thousands of years ago?

I will be curious to see Sealybobo's response for this, however, my response would be that, while is it not out of the realm of the possible, I find it highly unlikely. If we were in contact with extraterrestrial races 2,000 years ago, why not today? I mean, did we grab their privates, or, in some other way, offend them, so, now suddenly, they don't wanna talk to us anymore? If we had been in contact with extraterrestrials, I think it would be likely that we would still be in contact with them. So, I think the "advanced spaceman" theory is rather unlikely.

If you visited the earth 5000 years ago and took a sniff, you wouldn't want to return for a few thousand years either.

Okay...and it's been a few thousand years. Hell, have have even advanced enough to send an invitation out there (Voyager). Soooo...where are they?

Sending voyager into space to try to talk to another civilization was like trying to talk to a whale by throwing a rock into the sea.


Advance extraterrestrial lifeforms would not necessarily have to be here or travel here physically to communicate with a receptive mind especially if those intelligences are of another dimension or realm of intelligent life..If it is true that there are lifeforms that are incorporeal in nature as scripture reports then they would have access to and dominion over what is incorporeal in man, the mind, and would not be restricted in anyway by space or time or the laws that restrict humans by virtue of their physical nature which is a part of the material universe..


Aside from that If there are advanced intelligences capable of traveling across the universe then they were already well aware of life developing on earth long before a human being ever wondered what a fart was...


You ask where are they? Perhaps they can only be seen by their effects in the same way one can only see the wind by the effect it has on the leaves of the trees.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that certain people throughout history have advanced or benefitted the species with an idea. Perhaps the many people who attributed their inspiration to a dream or a muse were people influenced by a superior intelligence like Moses was influenced to introduce divine law which teaches people to distinguish between clean and unclean, right and wrong, true and false, and life and death.

And it is at this point that your "aliens" require exactly the same amount of intellect suspending faith. I prefer to deal with objective reality to subjective faith. Sorry.

Ok, fair enough. You want personal proof.

Don't be surprised if you wake up one morning in the twilight zone after having strange dreams of being incapacitated and probed by strange creatures..

You asked for it..

 

[Czernobog]

I will be curious to see Sealybobo's response for this, however, my response would be that, while is it not out of the realm of the possible, I find it highly unlikely. If we were in contact with extraterrestrial races 2,000 years ago, why not today? I mean, did we grab their privates, or, in some other way, offend them, so, now suddenly, they don't wanna talk to us anymore? If we had been in contact with extraterrestrials, I think it would be likely that we would still be in contact with them. So, I think the "advanced spaceman" theory is rather unlikely.

If you visited the earth 5000 years ago and took a sniff, you wouldn't want to return for a few thousand years either.

Okay...and it's been a few thousand years. Hell, have have even advanced enough to send an invitation out there (Voyager). Soooo...where are they?

Sending voyager into space to try to talk to another civilization was like trying to talk to a whale by throwing a rock into the sea.


Advance extraterrestrial lifeforms would not necessarily have to be here or travel here physically to communicate with a receptive mind especially if those intelligences are of another dimension or realm of intelligent life..If it is true that there are lifeforms that are incorporeal in nature as scripture reports then they would have access to and dominion over what is incorporeal in man, the mind, and would not be restricted in anyway by space or time or the laws that restrict humans by virtue of their physical nature which is a part of the material universe..


Aside from that If there are advanced intelligences capable of traveling across the universe then they were already well aware of life developing on earth long before a human being ever wondered what a fart was...


You ask where are they? Perhaps they can only be seen by their effects in the same way one can only see the wind by the effect it has on the leaves of the trees.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that certain people throughout history have advanced or benefitted the species with an idea. Perhaps the many people who attributed their inspiration to a dream or a muse were people influenced by a superior intelligence like Moses was influenced to introduce divine law which teaches people to distinguish between clean and unclean, right and wrong, true and false, and life and death.

And it is at this point that your "aliens" require exactly the same amount of intellect suspending faith. I prefer to deal with objective reality to subjective faith. Sorry.

Ok, fair enough. You want personal proof.

Don't be surprised if you wake up one morning in the twilight zone after having strange dreams of being incapacitated and probed by strange creatures..

You asked for it..

No. I want objective proof.

 

[hobelim]

If you visited the earth 5000 years ago and took a sniff, you wouldn't want to return for a few thousand years either.

Okay...and it's been a few thousand years. Hell, have have even advanced enough to send an invitation out there (Voyager). Soooo...where are they?

Sending voyager into space to try to talk to another civilization was like trying to talk to a whale by throwing a rock into the sea.


Advance extraterrestrial lifeforms would not necessarily have to be here or travel here physically to communicate with a receptive mind especially if those intelligences are of another dimension or realm of intelligent life..If it is true that there are lifeforms that are incorporeal in nature as scripture reports then they would have access to and dominion over what is incorporeal in man, the mind, and would not be restricted in anyway by space or time or the laws that restrict humans by virtue of their physical nature which is a part of the material universe..


Aside from that If there are advanced intelligences capable of traveling across the universe then they were already well aware of life developing on earth long before a human being ever wondered what a fart was...


You ask where are they? Perhaps they can only be seen by their effects in the same way one can only see the wind by the effect it has on the leaves of the trees.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that certain people throughout history have advanced or benefitted the species with an idea. Perhaps the many people who attributed their inspiration to a dream or a muse were people influenced by a superior intelligence like Moses was influenced to introduce divine law which teaches people to distinguish between clean and unclean, right and wrong, true and false, and life and death.

And it is at this point that your "aliens" require exactly the same amount of intellect suspending faith. I prefer to deal with objective reality to subjective faith. Sorry.

Ok, fair enough. You want personal proof.

Don't be surprised if you wake up one morning in the twilight zone after having strange dreams of being incapacitated and probed by strange creatures..

You asked for it..

No. I want objective proof.

What, like 9 out of 10 scientists agree?

What would suffice as proof better than a personal experience?

If you really wanted proof of God what could ever possibly convince you short of God making himself known to you? Are you chicken?

Anyone can claim that something is good to eat and it can be objectively judged as good to eat but how could you ever really know if the claim is true unless you reach out your hand , take, and eat?

 

[Czernobog]

Okay...and it's been a few thousand years. Hell, have have even advanced enough to send an invitation out there (Voyager). Soooo...where are they?

Sending voyager into space to try to talk to another civilization was like trying to talk to a whale by throwing a rock into the sea.


Advance extraterrestrial lifeforms would not necessarily have to be here or travel here physically to communicate with a receptive mind especially if those intelligences are of another dimension or realm of intelligent life..If it is true that there are lifeforms that are incorporeal in nature as scripture reports then they would have access to and dominion over what is incorporeal in man, the mind, and would not be restricted in anyway by space or time or the laws that restrict humans by virtue of their physical nature which is a part of the material universe..


Aside from that If there are advanced intelligences capable of traveling across the universe then they were already well aware of life developing on earth long before a human being ever wondered what a fart was...


You ask where are they? Perhaps they can only be seen by their effects in the same way one can only see the wind by the effect it has on the leaves of the trees.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that certain people throughout history have advanced or benefitted the species with an idea. Perhaps the many people who attributed their inspiration to a dream or a muse were people influenced by a superior intelligence like Moses was influenced to introduce divine law which teaches people to distinguish between clean and unclean, right and wrong, true and false, and life and death.

And it is at this point that your "aliens" require exactly the same amount of intellect suspending faith. I prefer to deal with objective reality to subjective faith. Sorry.

Ok, fair enough. You want personal proof.

Don't be surprised if you wake up one morning in the twilight zone after having strange dreams of being incapacitated and probed by strange creatures..

You asked for it..

No. I want objective proof.

What, like 9 out of 10 scientists agree?

What would suffice as proof better than a personal experience? Anyone can claim that something is good to eat and it can be objectively judged as good to eat but how could you ever really know if the claim is true unless you reach out your hand , take, and eat?

What you are describing is subjective opinion. There is no such thing as "objective evidence' that something is "good". I may think that a banana is fantastic, and wonderful to eat. But, if you don't like bananas, then it is going to taste like shit to you.

The objective reality is that bananas exist. Their existence can be proven. That is all I seek. Objective proof that either God, or your Super Aliens exist.

 

[hobelim]

Sending voyager into space to try to talk to another civilization was like trying to talk to a whale by throwing a rock into the sea.


Advance extraterrestrial lifeforms would not necessarily have to be here or travel here physically to communicate with a receptive mind especially if those intelligences are of another dimension or realm of intelligent life..If it is true that there are lifeforms that are incorporeal in nature as scripture reports then they would have access to and dominion over what is incorporeal in man, the mind, and would not be restricted in anyway by space or time or the laws that restrict humans by virtue of their physical nature which is a part of the material universe..


Aside from that If there are advanced intelligences capable of traveling across the universe then they were already well aware of life developing on earth long before a human being ever wondered what a fart was...


You ask where are they? Perhaps they can only be seen by their effects in the same way one can only see the wind by the effect it has on the leaves of the trees.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that certain people throughout history have advanced or benefitted the species with an idea. Perhaps the many people who attributed their inspiration to a dream or a muse were people influenced by a superior intelligence like Moses was influenced to introduce divine law which teaches people to distinguish between clean and unclean, right and wrong, true and false, and life and death.

And it is at this point that your "aliens" require exactly the same amount of intellect suspending faith. I prefer to deal with objective reality to subjective faith. Sorry.

Ok, fair enough. You want personal proof.

Don't be surprised if you wake up one morning in the twilight zone after having strange dreams of being incapacitated and probed by strange creatures..

You asked for it..

No. I want objective proof.

What, like 9 out of 10 scientists agree?

What would suffice as proof better than a personal experience? Anyone can claim that something is good to eat and it can be objectively judged as good to eat but how could you ever really know if the claim is true unless you reach out your hand , take, and eat?

What you are describing is subjective opinion. There is no such thing as "objective evidence' that something is "good". I may think that a banana is fantastic, and wonderful to eat. But, if you don't like bananas, then it is going to taste like shit to you.

The objective reality is that bananas exist. Their existence can be proven. That is all I seek. Objective proof that either God, or your Super Aliens exist.

Alrighty then. Sweet dreams.

 

[sealybobo]

Atheists don't hate God we hate everything bad that comes with it and that includes the lie that God talked to anyone or sent aa son.

But in spirit I agree with your post. If there is a creator that cares he would care about the truth and being good.

Son of God is just a relational metaphor indicating rank above that of ordinary prophets who were called servants of God.


I suspect that you are reacting to the notion of God that has been perpetuated for millenia, beliefs about God that I also reject.


That being said and having accepted scientific discoveries about the universe do you still find it out of the realm of possibilities for an individual human being to have been contacted by some extraterrestrial intelligence thousands of years ago?

I will be curious to see Sealybobo's response for this, however, my response would be that, while is it not out of the realm of the possible, I find it highly unlikely. If we were in contact with extraterrestrial races 2,000 years ago, why not today? I mean, did we grab their privates, or, in some other way, offend them, so, now suddenly, they don't wanna talk to us anymore? If we had been in contact with extraterrestrials, I think it would be likely that we would still be in contact with them. So, I think the "advanced spaceman" theory is rather unlikely.

If you visited the earth 5000 years ago and took a sniff, you wouldn't want to return for a few thousand years either.

Okay...and it's been a few thousand years. Hell, have have even advanced enough to send an invitation out there (Voyager). Soooo...where are they?

Sending voyager into space to try to talk to another civilization was like trying to talk to a whale by throwing a rock into the sea.


Advance extraterrestrial lifeforms would not necessarily have to be here or travel here physically to communicate with a receptive mind especially if those intelligences are of another dimension or realm of intelligent life..If it is true that there are lifeforms that are incorporeal in nature as scripture reports then they would have access to and dominion over what is incorporeal in man, the mind, and would not be restricted in anyway by space or time or the laws that restrict humans by virtue of their physical nature which is a part of the material universe..


Aside from that If there are advanced intelligences capable of traveling across the universe then they were already well aware of life developing on earth long before a human being ever wondered what a fart was...


You ask where are they? Perhaps they can only be seen by their effects in the same way one can only see the wind by the effect it has on the leaves of the trees.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that certain people throughout history have advanced or benefitted the species with an idea. Perhaps the many people who attributed their inspiration to a dream or a muse were people influenced by a superior intelligence like Moses was influenced to introduce divine law which teaches people to distinguish between clean and unclean, right and wrong, true and false, and life and death.

He picked 10 random thing men don't like and said don't do those things. For example don't lust after your neighbors wife or don't lie. And did we really need to be told not to do these things?

Rest on Sunday?

All man made.

 

[sealybobo]

Okay...and it's been a few thousand years. Hell, have have even advanced enough to send an invitation out there (Voyager). Soooo...where are they?

Sending voyager into space to try to talk to another civilization was like trying to talk to a whale by throwing a rock into the sea.


Advance extraterrestrial lifeforms would not necessarily have to be here or travel here physically to communicate with a receptive mind especially if those intelligences are of another dimension or realm of intelligent life..If it is true that there are lifeforms that are incorporeal in nature as scripture reports then they would have access to and dominion over what is incorporeal in man, the mind, and would not be restricted in anyway by space or time or the laws that restrict humans by virtue of their physical nature which is a part of the material universe..


Aside from that If there are advanced intelligences capable of traveling across the universe then they were already well aware of life developing on earth long before a human being ever wondered what a fart was...


You ask where are they? Perhaps they can only be seen by their effects in the same way one can only see the wind by the effect it has on the leaves of the trees.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that certain people throughout history have advanced or benefitted the species with an idea. Perhaps the many people who attributed their inspiration to a dream or a muse were people influenced by a superior intelligence like Moses was influenced to introduce divine law which teaches people to distinguish between clean and unclean, right and wrong, true and false, and life and death.

And it is at this point that your "aliens" require exactly the same amount of intellect suspending faith. I prefer to deal with objective reality to subjective faith. Sorry.

Ok, fair enough. You want personal proof.

Don't be surprised if you wake up one morning in the twilight zone after having strange dreams of being incapacitated and probed by strange creatures..

You asked for it..

No. I want objective proof.

What, like 9 out of 10 scientists agree?

What would suffice as proof better than a personal experience?

If you really wanted proof of God what could ever possibly convince you short of God making himself known to you? Are you chicken?

Anyone can claim that something is good to eat and it can be objectively judged as good to eat but how could you ever really know if the claim is true unless you reach out your hand , take, and eat?

We all accepted God as fact when we were told as children. Well maybe I even had a problem with the story then too.

Point is I can't believe something I don't just because I want to. But that is what theists do.

 

[hobelim]

Son of God is just a relational metaphor indicating rank above that of ordinary prophets who were called servants of God.


I suspect that you are reacting to the notion of God that has been perpetuated for millenia, beliefs about God that I also reject.


That being said and having accepted scientific discoveries about the universe do you still find it out of the realm of possibilities for an individual human being to have been contacted by some extraterrestrial intelligence thousands of years ago?

I will be curious to see Sealybobo's response for this, however, my response would be that, while is it not out of the realm of the possible, I find it highly unlikely. If we were in contact with extraterrestrial races 2,000 years ago, why not today? I mean, did we grab their privates, or, in some other way, offend them, so, now suddenly, they don't wanna talk to us anymore? If we had been in contact with extraterrestrials, I think it would be likely that we would still be in contact with them. So, I think the "advanced spaceman" theory is rather unlikely.

If you visited the earth 5000 years ago and took a sniff, you wouldn't want to return for a few thousand years either.

Okay...and it's been a few thousand years. Hell, have have even advanced enough to send an invitation out there (Voyager). Soooo...where are they?

Sending voyager into space to try to talk to another civilization was like trying to talk to a whale by throwing a rock into the sea.


Advance extraterrestrial lifeforms would not necessarily have to be here or travel here physically to communicate with a receptive mind especially if those intelligences are of another dimension or realm of intelligent life..If it is true that there are lifeforms that are incorporeal in nature as scripture reports then they would have access to and dominion over what is incorporeal in man, the mind, and would not be restricted in anyway by space or time or the laws that restrict humans by virtue of their physical nature which is a part of the material universe..


Aside from that If there are advanced intelligences capable of traveling across the universe then they were already well aware of life developing on earth long before a human being ever wondered what a fart was...


You ask where are they? Perhaps they can only be seen by their effects in the same way one can only see the wind by the effect it has on the leaves of the trees.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that certain people throughout history have advanced or benefitted the species with an idea. Perhaps the many people who attributed their inspiration to a dream or a muse were people influenced by a superior intelligence like Moses was influenced to introduce divine law which teaches people to distinguish between clean and unclean, right and wrong, true and false, and life and death.

He picked 10 random thing men don't like and said don't do those things. For example don't lust after your neighbors wife or don't lie. And did we really need to be told not to do these things?

Rest on Sunday?

All man made.

Try to realize that when the law was given people were hardly more than knuckle dragging barbarians and the law was written in figurative language at at time when most of the people of the world couldn't even read.

Now most people can read but still have no clue that kosher law for instance has nothing whatever to do with what a person serves and eats for dinner. What it is about reflects wisdom and understanding about the human mind that surpasses even that of modern man..

That being said yes, people really did and still do need to be taught to distinguish the difference between clean and unclean, right and wrong, good and evil, light and darkness, life and death.

If not, why do so many people pray to a nonexistent entity for favors while they live and presents when they die?

Why do so many people who claim to be intelligent refuse to accept the possibility of superior intelligences or that there is hidden teaching in scripture that is impossible to have been a product of the mind of men given the times in which they were written when all people had the form and shape of human beings but intelligences just slightly above that of a monkey and knew as much about the conscious mind as a pebble?

 

[hobelim]

Sending voyager into space to try to talk to another civilization was like trying to talk to a whale by throwing a rock into the sea.


Advance extraterrestrial lifeforms would not necessarily have to be here or travel here physically to communicate with a receptive mind especially if those intelligences are of another dimension or realm of intelligent life..If it is true that there are lifeforms that are incorporeal in nature as scripture reports then they would have access to and dominion over what is incorporeal in man, the mind, and would not be restricted in anyway by space or time or the laws that restrict humans by virtue of their physical nature which is a part of the material universe..


Aside from that If there are advanced intelligences capable of traveling across the universe then they were already well aware of life developing on earth long before a human being ever wondered what a fart was...


You ask where are they? Perhaps they can only be seen by their effects in the same way one can only see the wind by the effect it has on the leaves of the trees.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that certain people throughout history have advanced or benefitted the species with an idea. Perhaps the many people who attributed their inspiration to a dream or a muse were people influenced by a superior intelligence like Moses was influenced to introduce divine law which teaches people to distinguish between clean and unclean, right and wrong, true and false, and life and death.

And it is at this point that your "aliens" require exactly the same amount of intellect suspending faith. I prefer to deal with objective reality to subjective faith. Sorry.

Ok, fair enough. You want personal proof.

Don't be surprised if you wake up one morning in the twilight zone after having strange dreams of being incapacitated and probed by strange creatures..

You asked for it..

No. I want objective proof.

What, like 9 out of 10 scientists agree?

What would suffice as proof better than a personal experience?

If you really wanted proof of God what could ever possibly convince you short of God making himself known to you? Are you chicken?

Anyone can claim that something is good to eat and it can be objectively judged as good to eat but how could you ever really know if the claim is true unless you reach out your hand , take, and eat?

We all accepted God as fact when we were told as children. Well maybe I even had a problem with the story then too.

Point is I can't believe something I don't just because I want to. But that is what theists do.

Same here. I only believe in what I know to be the truth, what I have seen with my own eyes conform to and confirmed by actual reality.

 

[PK1]

... why do so many people pray to a nonexistent entity for favors while they live and presents when they die?
... the possibility of superior intelligences or that there is hidden teaching in scripture

The explanation for why "so many people pray to a nonexistent entity" is very simple within social & developmental psychology viewpoints:
1) children learn thoughts & overt behavioral patterns within social context;
2) these behavioral patterns develop emotional correlates that may be carried into adulthood;
3) certain sub/cultural beliefs continue to influence thoughts in brains that don't learn to think for themselves based on analytical tools within the fields of modern philosophy & sciences.

The "possibility of superior intelligences" is at best a primitive hypothesis at this time.

 

[sealybobo]

... why do so many people pray to a nonexistent entity for favors while they live and presents when they die?
... the possibility of superior intelligences or that there is hidden teaching in scripture

The explanation for why "so many people pray to a nonexistent entity" is very simple within social & developmental psychology viewpoints:
1) children learn thoughts & overt behavioral patterns within social context;
2) these behavioral patterns develop emotional correlates that may be carried into adulthood;
3) certain sub/cultural beliefs continue to influence thoughts in brains that don't learn to think for themselves based on analytical tools within the fields of modern philosophy & sciences.

The "possibility of superior intelligences" is at best a primitive hypothesis at this time.

This is too much information for a theist. Just like they can't take in the 1000's of reasons why evolution is probably true. If you can't tell them in 1 or 2 sentences why all living things are related, and if it's not something their brains can wrap around they will reject the possibility that we were once monkey's and before that fish.

But they will accept a holy book that tells of talking snakes and virgin births.

It is hard for them to imagine/believe/comprehend that they are brainwashed.

Why there is no god

“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” – Carl Sagan

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

 

[hobelim]

... why do so many people pray to a nonexistent entity for favors while they live and presents when they die?
... the possibility of superior intelligences or that there is hidden teaching in scripture

The explanation for why "so many people pray to a nonexistent entity" is very simple within social & developmental psychology viewpoints:
1) children learn thoughts & overt behavioral patterns within social context;
2) these behavioral patterns develop emotional correlates that may be carried into adulthood;
3) certain sub/cultural beliefs continue to influence thoughts in brains that don't learn to think for themselves based on analytical tools within the fields of modern philosophy & sciences.

The "possibility of superior intelligences" is at best a primitive hypothesis at this time.

This is too much information for a theist. Just like they can't take in the 1000's of reasons why evolution is probably true. If you can't tell them in 1 or 2 sentences why all living things are related, and if it's not something their brains can wrap around they will reject the possibility that we were once monkey's and before that fish.

But they will accept a holy book that tells of talking snakes and virgin births.

It is hard for them to imagine/believe/comprehend that they are brainwashed.

Why there is no god

“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” – Carl Sagan

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

having a humbling awareness that the intelligence of human beings is not the greatest of intelligences in existence in no way detracts or deprives the rational mind from experiencing the fullness of what life has to offer.

Thinking that man is the highest form of intelligent life in the universe, as dumb as you admit most are, would be extremely depressing.