Question for teachers

[Wiseacre]

In Obama's speech last night, he said that laying off teachers has to stop. I wasn't aware that many teachers have been laid off, and those that were might have been as a result of the teachers union refusing to accept lower benefits in exchange for fewer layoffs, if any.

My question is, how many teachers do you think are being laid off relative to the administration (non-teachers). What's your experience or knowledge, are we really cutting teachers over non-teachers?

(snippet from a response to Obama's speech at Heritage.com)


Jobs for Teachers?

In his remarks tonight, President Obama argued that his jobs proposal would create more jobs for teachers. He went as far as to say laying off teachers…"has to stop".

But since 1970, student enrollment in public elementary and secondary schools has increased just 7 percent, while public elementary and secondary staff hires have increased 83 percent. Moreover, in the 1950′s, there were approximately 2.36 teachers for every non-teacher in a school district. Today, in our nation’s school systems, that ratio is closer to 1 to 1. So every teacher in the classroom has an administrative counterpart in your local public school district. That is a tremendous strain on state budgets. But it is also a huge boon the education unions.

President Obama’s call to spend more precious taxpayer dollars to "prevent teacher layoffs" may do more to inflate schools’ non-teaching rosters than to retain teachers.

On a per-pupil basis, federal spending on education has nearly tripled since the 1970′s. And those who have benefited the most from this profligacy aren’t the children sitting in the nation’s classrooms. No, the increase in federal education spending (and commensurate increase in Washington’s involvement in local schools) hasn’t led to improvements in academic achievement, to increased graduation rates, or even to a narrowing of the achievement gap. It hasn’t served to improve outcomes for children, but it has propped-up the public education jobs program that too often aims to meet the needs of the adults in the system, not the children it was designed to educate.

 

[old navy]

I teach in the 11th largest public school system in the country. Every year we have more students enroll than was projected. The system hires more teachers in response, and in fact, have cut administrative positions to compensate for scarce resources. Every time I hear the president say that his stimulus must be passed to re-hire teachers, I picture a classroom of kids, alone, waiting for a teacher to show up. Funny stuff. I have 180 students in six classes, many more than most teachers. I'm not complaining though, as the large numbers mean job security in a crappy economy.

I believe that when money is thrown at "education," it mostly goes to the unions which helps at the polls. Coincidentally, there is an election coming up in a few months.

As far as increased spending not improving graduation rates, narrowing the achievment gap, or increasing academic achievement, how can it be expected too? Money is not the problem or the solution. The decay of society and large numbers of illiterate children is a large part of the problem. There are still tons of smart kids in the system whose scores are diluted by their lesser achieving classmates. The state of education in the USA is not nearly as bad as advertised.

 

[uscitizen]

School year starts, teacher layoffs continue
September 6, 2011 4:04 PM

Hundreds of thousands of teachers across the country have lost their jobs to state budget cuts, and with the new school year starting, the layoffs just keep coming. Ben Tracy reports.



School year starts, teacher layoffs continue - CBS News Video

 

[WorldWatcher]

My question is, how many teachers do you think are being laid off relative to the administration (non-teachers). What's your experience or knowledge, are we really cutting teachers over non-teachers?

I work in the Human Resources Department for a school system. We've had staffing reductions every year for the last 3-4 years. The reasons were primarily because about 7 years ago we started to see decreases in student enrollment. (A trend that is projected to change in 2012-2013.) The prior Superintendent did not want to decrease teacher staffing levels, then comes the economic downturn in 2008 coupled with sever budget cuts.

Over the multiple rounds of RIF's, the support staff has taken much deeper cuts then those experienced by instructional staff. The RIF plans developed and approved by the School Board called for Teachers to be cut as a last resort. For example our HR Department is down about 35% from what it was at the beginning of the 2008-2009 school year, yet along with that reduction in staff there has been no corresponding reduction in duty requirements. Most of the work performed by non-exempt positions were absorbed by exempt staff meaning we routinely put in 60-70 hour weeks just to stay even. (By shifting the work to exempt staff there is no requirement to pay overtime.) Thank heaven for VPN and Remote Desktop and being able to access systems in the evening and during the weekend. Not complaining mind you because as retired Navy I'm used to doing whatever it takes to get the job done and I'm very thankful to the administration and the taxpayers who pay my salary for the ability to keep my job.

While the majority of the cuts have been in what we classify as non-instructional staff, there were quite a few teaching positions that were also eliminated. Some of these were adjustments needed to realign with lower student enrollments, some positions/programs were eliminated/reduced because of budgetary pressures. The region I live/work in has about 8 school systems in a geographical area where commuting is possible and we have a high military density in the region. Over a normal summer hiring season we would normally hire 250-300 personnel, with the RIF'd positions that is down to probably in the 175-225 range now. While there have been teaching positions eliminated, we have been pretty lucky through retirements, voluntary resignations, an early retirement program, military transfers, etc. to be able to reduce positions with only having to fire a relatively small number of actual teachers. In other words we were able to vacate positions through attrition, but that means we were hiring below our normal numbers - which means some looking at entering the teaching profession were left without positions to be hired into. One area that took a pretty big hit was Teacher Aides in the early elementary grades which our system had supported for a number of years. With the budget cuts they were eliminated from the State staffing formulas and with local revenues down those positions were cut, the only ones left in the general education classrooms are now in the Kindergarten grade.


Sometimes teacher "cuts" don't necessarily mean that someone was fired (although it very well may be that way), sometimes it just means that staffing is reduced and people looking for teacher jobs have no slots to be hired into.


>>>>

 

[chanel]

Our district of 4000 students lost 54 positions last year - 35 of them teachers. But because of the new changes in pension rules, many have retired and many more are expected to, at the end of this year. Hopefully, those who were laid off will be rehired.

Part of the problem was that the "Obama money" (the first stimulus) was for one year only. That is what I fear with this new jobs plan. Staff is rehired for a year and then the money runs out. Either the state will have to pick up the tab for the next 30 years or the people will be laid off again.

 

[bill5]

But since 1970, student enrollment in public elementary and secondary schools has increased just 7 percent, while public elementary and secondary staff hires have increased 83 percent. Moreover, in the 1950′s, there were approximately 2.36 teachers for every non-teacher in a school district. Today, in our nation’s school systems, that ratio is closer to 1 to 1. So every teacher in the classroom has an administrative counterpart in your local public school district. That is a tremendous strain on state budgets. But it is also a huge boon the education unions.

Stop throwing facts out. Politicians and their many shills HATE that.

 

[chanel]

Administrators are not part of the union. In some schools in NJ, they have a 6 figure guy who heads "Minority Affairs" or some nonsense. The only duty seems to be to threaten teachers who fail minority students. In many schools, there are overpaid athletic directors who have their secretaries do all their work. They're not union either.

 

[editec]

Try finding the rate of unemployment for k-12 educators.

Go ahead just try to find it.

And if you do find it, please let me know what search term you used, to would you?

Thanks.

 

[chanel]

Can't vouch for the source editec, but I googled "unemployed teachers 2011".

As to hiring teachers, total employment in local government education (August 2010 to August 2011) is down by 200,000 nationwide. Education employment in state government for the same period shows no change. In short, there is no indication of serious loss of jobs when viewing state government education employment data; there is a loss of 200,000 when viewing local government data. The Bureau of Labor Statistics August 2011 unemployment rate for education and health services, not seasonally adjusted, which contains teachers and other educators, is 6.3%, one of the lowest unemployment rates for any sector, and a bit lower than 6.7% in August 2010. While the president implied that teachers were facing serious payrolls cuts, the data offer a mixed bag of evidence. There are job losses, but the sector is one of the healthier in the overall labor market.

http://mercatus.org/expert_commentary/key-points-obamas-jobs-plan-mixed-bag

 

[chanel]

Looks like the OP was correct. Teachers are being laid off; but not at the same rate as the rest of the country. Of course, there are laws about class sizes.

 

[Samson]

is that I haven't heard of any school that has had to shut down their Marching Band program.....the USA can stand proud amoung the nations of the world knowing that if there's ever a global shortage of tuba players, we've got that covered.

 

[Wiseacre]

is that I haven't heard of any school that has had to shut down their Marching Band program.....the USA can stand proud amoung the nations of the world knowing that if there's ever a global shortage of tuba players, we've got that covered.

Thanks so much, I just knew there had to be some good news somewhere under the mountain of shit we're dealing with in our schools. Our kids can't do much else, but by God they look good in those uniforms.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Our school district terminated nearly 80 contracts in the spring, found enough money to bring about 69 of them back, so about 12 were layed off. A school district west of Ft Worth forced their teachers to sign a resignation later last spring if they wanted to be considered for rehire, which was just ethically wrong. Those teachers, their families, and their friends are organizing to replace the entire board over the next three elections and then fire the Superintendent for cause, which means no perks, just bye bye.

 

[ogibillm]

is that I haven't heard of any school that has had to shut down their Marching Band program.....the USA can stand proud amoung the nations of the world knowing that if there's ever a global shortage of tuba players, we've got that covered.

you have to be kidding me.

arts programs are among the first to get cut - and if you don't see value in educating students in the arts i suggest you go back to your cave and give it some more thought.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Our school district terminated nearly 80 contracts in the spring, found enough money to bring about 69 of them back, so about 12 were layed off. A school district west of Ft Worth forced their teachers to sign a resignation later last spring if they wanted to be considered for rehire, which was just ethically wrong. Those teachers, their families, and their friends are organizing to replace the entire board over the next three elections and then fire the Superintendent for cause, which means no perks, just bye bye.

By obtaining a resignation letter...

1. By having a resignation letter the employer can contest an application for unemployment benefits saying the ex-employee left work voluntarily. Having a large influx of unemployment claims would impact how much the employer is charged for unemployment. The downside is the employee doesn't get the benefit.

2. I can also see this as a way of bypassing state tenure/seniority rules. By signing a resignation letter they have voided their claim to tenure when it comes to placement the next year. From an employer standpoint the claim can be made that weak teachers do not need to be called back. The reality is that when this is done for budgetary reasons, it can be viewed as as a form of age discrimination because the intent it to release older workers (who will normally be higher on the wage scales) and replace them with lower earning junior teachers.​

>>>>

 

[Samson]

is that I haven't heard of any school that has had to shut down their Marching Band program.....the USA can stand proud amoung the nations of the world knowing that if there's ever a global shortage of tuba players, we've got that covered.

you have to be kidding me.

arts programs are among the first to get cut - and if you don't see value in educating students in the arts i suggest you go back to your cave and give it some more thought.

Really?

Number one, I suggest you try to focus: I said Marching Band.

Since when was Marching Band elevated to a fucking "art?"

Two: before you begin making moronically hyperbolic comments, at least support them with some research: What evidence is there that most teachers being laid off are art teachers?

Three: Marching Band is an extremely fucking expensive program. I'm comparing the lay-off of all teachers with the maintenance of expensive public programs that have tenuous value compared to the mission of public schools, which seem to have failed you since I need to point out the obvious contrast.

 

[ogibillm]

is that I haven't heard of any school that has had to shut down their Marching Band program.....the USA can stand proud amoung the nations of the world knowing that if there's ever a global shortage of tuba players, we've got that covered.

you have to be kidding me.

arts programs are among the first to get cut - and if you don't see value in educating students in the arts i suggest you go back to your cave and give it some more thought.

Really?

Number one, I suggest you try to focus: I said Marching Band.

Since when was Marching Band elevated to a fucking "art?"

Two: before you begin making moronically hyperbolic comments, at least support them with some research: What evidence is there that most teachers being laid off are art teachers?

Three: Marching Band is an extremely fucking expensive program. I'm comparing the lay-off of all teachers with the maintenance of expensive public programs that have tenuous value compared to the mission of public schools, which seem to have failed you since I need to point out the obvious contrast.

sorry, where i'm from marching band was it. it was band - and yes, it was an expensive program. but not really any more so than say the football or wrestling teams. where i'm from the community supported the band, bought the uniforms, paid for the equipment, and raised money for the travel. this did not come out of the school budget.

that aside - it's anecdotal but arts programs are first on the chopping block when it comes to lay offs. makes the most sense. nobody does standardized tests in music. and if you have to choose between laying off a math or a music teacher you always keep the math teacher.

and i apologize if i read you wrong, but it seemed to me that you were diminishing the value of the arts in general.

 

[editec]

I find it hard to believe that the stats on unemployed educators is truly valid.

If one takes the number of people who are educated as educators nationally, compared to the number of working educators, I suspect you'd discover that educators as a profession have the highest rate of unemployment among all professions.

And if one sees how many qualified candidates respond to advertisements for teaching posts, I think one will discover the same.

Of course many qualified educators are NOT unemployed.

They are NOT, however, employed as educators even though I have little doubt many of those would be if they thought they could find a posting.

 

[Gem]

I currently teach at the middle school level, although my family is in the process of moving - and I'll be teaching at the high school level in my new town.

At my current school, the teacher's union agreed to a pay freeze in order to ensure that teachers were not laid off. If the union had not agreed, arts teachers (especially music) would have been laid off, as well as the "low men on the totem pole" in other subjects.

We also had an increase of 6th graders - bringing our class size up about 65-75 students. In previous years this might have been dealt with by hiring an additional English, Math, Science, and Social Studies teacher...but this year we simply absorbed the additional children into our already existing class sizes, upping them each by approximately 10 children per class.

What I see most frequently in the districts in my area is not lay-offs, which are received negatively by the community...but simply not hiring replacements when teachers retire.

 

[old navy]

The union that represents my district didn't have to agree with or otherwise, the administration just flat out said "no raise" for two years. With the high unemployment rate and tons of very qualified applicants, teachers can either comply or find employment elsewhere. We got a paltry one percent this year and the union is patting thenselves on the back. Punks.