Q for Followers of Jesus

[YellowBirdy]

Hi. I have a question for Christians. I ask because I am not one, and wasn't raised in one. I'm an immigrant to the US and I come from a place where some are Christians, but my family and I aren't.

Why do some of you say Catholics aren't Christians? My understanding is that Christianity is divided into Catholicism and Protestanism. And yes, the Orthodox churches of Armenia, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria and Russia and other countries utilizing the Cycillic alphabet. But they are all sects w/in the same general religion. Thats what I learned in history. They are components of 1 of the 5 major religions. So if Catholics aren't Christian, does that mean all the people who were living in Europe before 1530 (When Martin Luther did his thing) weren't Christian? And why if when you ask somebody their religion do they say "Catholic" whereas others say "Christian". And are Eastern Orthodox people Christians?

Why do some Christians get so crazy about gay marriage? They say it's an "abomination". I went and read some of the bible (and yes, I was pointed to chapters from a left-leaning website, but it had some good points.) People say that Jesus by dying and coming back to life represents some new covenant so that stuff in the old testament can be disregarded. For instance, This is why Christians can eat bacon while Jews can't. But the gay thing is in the Old Testiment. Not the new. So why is the pork disregarded and not the gay thing? Or a Persian Jewish friend of mine said that the Torah (old testament) says you can't touch a women on her period.

Exodus 13:!5 - says I can't work on the Sabbath because it's holy. And if I do work on that day, I "shall be killed." That seems harsh. Back when I worked in a restaurant and in the mall my white co-worker would have these old white people always asking him on Sunday why he was working. I guess that was because they were religious. He would say its because he needs to buy books for school. If they believe that he shouldn't work because the day is holy, why do they patronize a business on the holy day? Going to a business on the holy day means that someone will be there working, and that person should die.

1 Corinthians 14:34 says that women are subordinate to men. Then how can you justify having women in power? I'm thinking of O'Connor, Rice, Whitman etc.

I guess I am confused because there seems to be so many rules in Christianity but how do you know which ones to follow?

 

[Joan]

I could be way wrong here, but I never heard of a Catholic saying that they were not Christian. There are many, many sects of Christianity. I do know that there are some Catholics who believe that their religion is the only one recognized by Christ. This I think is poppycock. I was raised as a Methodist, and converted when my children were young to Catholic. There are numerous differences between the two religions, but they all use the same King James Bible.

I will agree that some of the stuff in the old testament is way out there - I remember reading in a Bible study class that a man should never sit on the same chair a woman "menstrating" has sat upon, as she is unclean. I also gave birth to four children, but did not go to be "churched" before returning home. This is mainly done in a Catholic church, since a woman having just given birth is also considered "unclean". I don't know about most women, but at that moment of birth I feel women are closer to God than they ever will be.

I can't get into the gay marriage issue, as I know very little about it. I do believe that we all mostly worship the same God, and the name of the church you attend has very little to do with anything.

 

[dilloduck]

You will get many different answers to your question because people interpret the Bible differently just as mulims disagree about the Koran and belong to different sects of Islam. What religion are you?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

The idea that catholics are not christians is a minority opinion and a bizarre one. This idea is espoused by certain sectarian christians who believe the antichrist foretold in revelations will rise through the catholic church, and that the catholic church itself is an instrument of evil.

 

[Avatar4321]

Since Catholicism is the largest sect in Christianity, im willing to bet a majority of Christians do believe that Catholics are Christians. There is a small minority of Protestant Evangelicals who tend to define Christianity as what they believe and everyone who disagrees with them as nonChristians. But thats a minority of fringers whom normal Christians dont take seriously.

As for the gay marriage thing, Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained by God. The first commandment God gave to man was to multiply and replenish the earth that that commandment is still in effect. Marriage is a sacred covenant between a man, a woman, and God. Its the most sacred institution to people can enter, And a foundation to human society and civilization. Thus, any attack on the family is an attack of society and civilization. It is the breakdown of the family that will bring the calamities fortold upon us.

You're arguments that homosexuality is only proscribed in the Old Testament are false. Its mentioned in the New Testament as well, not only that, all sexual sin is forbidden. You cant mess with the power to create life carelessly and expect to be found not guilty on the day of judgement.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by YellowBirdy
Hi. I have a question for Christians. I ask because I am not one, and wasn't raised in one. I'm an immigrant to the US and I come from a place where some are Christians, but my family and I aren't.

Why do some of you say Catholics aren't Christians?

Christianity is truly a faith of following Christ and believing he was what he claimed according to original inspired written texts of Greek and Hebrew origin as historically kept and verified which creates a complete "Bible".

Cults that use Christ as a central figure for pointing to and putting a spotlight on and then justifying their own versions of things, or behaviors, or beliefs outside of that are NOT Christian.

Roman Catholocism is just such a cult. Anyone building a political and decieving large scale movement of replacing God with man by praying to the dead for hopes of appeasing Christ when He claimed "nobody may come to the father but through me", and claiming that praying to the dead is sinful and wrong, and then claiming the CHURCH an authority that can dictate and dispense God's capacities for salvation IS A CULT.

My understanding is that Christianity is divided into Catholicism and Protestanism.

That is because someone tells you things that feel good and sells you a brand name instead of giving you the cold hard facts. Someone telling you something is not reality. PROOF is reality.

And yes, the Orthodox churches of Armenia, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria and Russia and other countries utilizing the Cycillic alphabet. But they are all sects w/in the same general religion. Thats what I learned in history. They are components of 1 of the 5 major religions.

History books in the public school system are comprised of socialist organizations educating the masses according to "science" to further a socialist agenda in the minds of youth. This is simple historical fact. Private schools don't fare much better due to law dictating a mandatory compliance and equality with public school cirriculum. In other words, you are taught what the system wants you to know or you do not get your diploma, and the school gets no legality.

If these churches you name are all part of the same "orthodox structure", then they all subscribe to some level of the parent faith of roman catholocism as the parent AUTHORITY. If Jim Jones was YOUR parent authority, wouldn't that undermine YOUR validity?

Being a "major religion" does not make anything fact anyway, just as islam and Buddists are not correct either.

So if Catholics aren't Christian, does that mean all the people who were living in Europe before 1530 (When Martin Luther did his thing) weren't Christian?

If they were catholics and believed in man determining their salvation, and did not have a relationship with Christ, YES. That is not MY perspective, but the BIBLES. That is incredibly important.

Also, the ritualistic catholocism is just that. -RITUALS. It is a relationship with Christ, as dictated by scripture, which determines a Christian, not which church he/she attends.

And why if when you ask somebody their religion do they say "Catholic" whereas others say "Christian". And are Eastern Orthodox people Christians?

Catholics are taught theirs is the only exclusive group to achieve heaven unless the pope says otherwise. -Kind of replaces God, doesn't it? Christ says all that believe in HIm shall not perish, but have everlasting life. The cult of catholocism wants their own following and must replace God's way with man's way and promote it if they want to keep their wealthy and political stature.

If they say "Christian", they lose validity as being distinct and therefore lose money and members, not to mention the perception of being the only true way even though it isn't.

As far as eastern orthodox, again: If the church is a cult, then the only other thing you can gauge by is wether or not the members have a relationship with Christ.

Why do some Christians get so crazy about gay marriage? They say it's an "abomination".

The Bible literally says a man with another man and a woman with a woman is an abomination. It is Biblical wording.

I went and read some of the bible (and yes, I was pointed to chapters from a left-leaning website, but it had some good points.) People say that Jesus by dying and coming back to life represents some new covenant so that stuff in the old testament can be disregarded. For instance, This is why Christians can eat bacon while Jews can't. But the gay thing is in the Old Testiment. Not the new. So why is the pork disregarded and not the gay thing? Or a Persian Jewish friend of mine said that the Torah (old testament) says you can't touch a women on her period.

Christ declaired Himself in scripture to BE the new covenant which, He claimed, was the abolishing the requirement of following law for salvation, in place of following HIM for salvation. -This means that we are to no longer hold a sacrifice for each sinful thought and such. This also means any rule in the Old Covenant can be disregarded except for one nuance:

****The 10 Commandments, as claimed by Jesus, are still to be obeyed.****

-They are not an exclusive rule book required for salvation, but they are a model of behavior. Jews often miss the recognition of Jesus's divinity and are therefore still looking for Him to make His first appearance. That is why they will be decieved very shortly when the antichrist makes his appearance, the Jews will believe him to be Christ.

As far as the "gay" thing, Jesus still talked about sin and the proper way we ought to live. He also claimed He came not to REPLACE THE LAW but to FULFILL it. As such, he places the acknowledgement and recognition of sin appropriately and notes we are to call it out wherever we see it and condemn the activity. Also, though, we are to love our brothers no matter what their sins. This is hard for most people to rectify.

Exodus 13:!5 - says I can't work on the Sabbath because it's holy. And if I do work on that day, I "shall be killed." That seems harsh. Back when I worked in a restaurant and in the mall my white co-worker would have these old white people always asking him on Sunday why he was working. I guess that was because they were religious. He would say its because he needs to buy books for school. If they believe that he shouldn't work because the day is holy, why do they patronize a business on the holy day? Going to a business on the holy day means that someone will be there working, and that person should die.

Old Covenant issues were fully acknowledged by the culture at the time. It wasn't a minority view in Israel, they were God's chosen people. Going against His word was a clear act of rebelling against God and was NOT common. Today, people have refused Christ for so long, they can't even tell you who he was. Again, though, the Commandments are our way we are instructed to live, but are not a prerequisite for salvation.

1 Corinthians 14:34 says that women are subordinate to men. Then how can you justify having women in power? I'm thinking of O'Connor, Rice, Whitman etc.

They are subordinate as they are manufactured to be such to their spouses. MEN ARE SUBORDINATE TO GOD BY THE SAME RULE. Women in power do not have odds with the context of scripture, but misinterpretations of it abound within churches because as we all know, any cult will justify anything to gain its power base. In addition to that, most people do not even WANT to know God well enough to READ IN CONTEXT their own scripture, and prove it against its self.

I guess I am confused because there seems to be so many rules in Christianity but how do you know which ones to follow?

There ARE NO RULES FOR SALVATION BUT ONE:

Believe in Christ as your lord and savior, fully accepting Him into your life, and you shall be saved. Pray to him directly and submit to Him completely and you will be saved.

Which church you go to is irrelevant in your salvation unless they replace God's word with their own and undermine the above point. After you have opened a relationship with Christ, you then find a Bible following group (not very often anymore a big church) and grow in your learning of God's word.

If you have any questions, I am always open for PM.

 

[mattskramer]

(Sigh) - So much of life seems to consist of choosing teams and fighting. This issue is clear to me. Assuming God exists, I'll leave it up to him to ultimately decide, in due time, who (or what organization) is Christian and who is not a Christian.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by mattskramer
(Sigh) - So much of life seems to consist of choosing teams and fighting. This issue is clear to me. Assuming God exists, I'll leave it up to him to ultimately decide, in due time, who (or what organization) is Christian and who is not a Christian.

HE did.

He put it in print for people across the world and through generations to all know salvation.

He even proclaimed that the end would not come before all heard about it.

Nobody will be able to say they did not know. That NOW INCLUDES YOU.

IF you read the Bible, you would have your answers.

 

[mattskramer]

I am not going to argue the validity and reliability of the Bible. I just mean to say that I find it quite sad when I hear arrogant, pompous alleged Christians declare with apparent authority "You are not a Christian. You are going to Hell" as if they have the final word. Yes. I have actually heard those exact statements spoken in person from one individual to another individual. Perhaps the person to whom those statements is not a Christian. Perhaps he will go to Hell, but...sheesh...don't you think that such statements are a bit insensitive, rude and out of line - for lack of a better description.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by mattskramer
I am not going to argue the validity and reliability of the Bible. I just mean to say that I find it quite sad when I hear arrogant, pompous alleged Christians declare with apparent authority "You are not a Christian. You are going to Hell" as if they have the final word. Yes. I have actually heard those exact statements spoken in person from one individual to another individual. Perhaps the person to whom those statements is not a Christian. Perhaps he will go to Hell, but...sheesh...don't you think that such statements are a bit insensitive, rude and out of line - for lack of a better description.

I agree. They are not to judge another's HEART. However, judging actions are a different matter.

Jesus said He came "not to bring peace, but be a sword" and divide brother against brother. Taking a stand does that. "Going to Hell" is simply reserved for people who do not accept Jesus as their lord and savior.

Insensitive statements? Rude? Out of line?

I would definitely say the statements you bring up would be out of line, but rude and insensitive are irrelevant when the facts are facts.

Jesus was rather rude and insensitive when adressing the money changers in the temple by YOUR assessment.

 

[Zhukov]

Mt 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. (6) But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

 

[dmp]

Matthew 6:5
"And when you come before God, don't turn that into a theatrical production either. All these people making a regular show out of their prayers, hoping for stardom! Do you think God sits in a box seat?
6"Here's what I want you to do: Find a quiet, secluded place so you won't be tempted to role-play before God. Just be there as simply and honestly as you can manage. The focus will shift from you to God, and you will begin to sense his grace. 7"The world is full of so-called prayer warriors who are prayer-ignorant. They're full of formulas and programs and advice, peddling techniques for getting what you want from God. 8Don't fall for that nonsense. This is your Father you are dealing with, and he knows better than you what you need.

Mathew 6:5 "And now about prayer. When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I assure you, that is all the reward they will ever get. 6But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father secretly. Then your Father, who knows all secrets, will reward you.
7"When you pray, don't babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered only by repeating their words again and again. 8Don't be like them, because your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him!

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Zhukov

A fantastic example of those who would become a group seeking recognition or openly over expressing their practices of prayer for the true gain of ego boosting or financial gain.

A relationship with Christ is not a movement, but it is a personal thing.

 

[Big D]

And then Jesus said,

give me your money or you will be in hell.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Man, you guys sure make me happy to be Jewish

 

[Avatar4321]

Originally posted by NewGuy
A fantastic example of those who would become a group seeking recognition or openly over expressing their practices of prayer for the true gain of ego boosting or financial gain.

A relationship with Christ is not a movement, but it is a personal thing.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;


21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. John 17:20-21

Sure sounds like Christ was praying for a visible body to me. He wanted the Saints to be one, like He and Father are one. While we all need our personal relationships with God, He is a God of order. And the gathering of His Saints will be a very visible thing. Remember the Second great commandment was to love your neighbor as yourself. Dont downplay the need for the community of saints or condemning the Church by pretending that all you need is a relationship with Christ. If someones claims to have a relationship with Christ and rejects the servants of Christ, he is a liar.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
Sure sounds like Christ was praying for a visible body to me. He wanted the Saints to be one, like He and Father are one. While we all need our personal relationships with God, He is a God of order. And the gathering of His Saints will be a very visible thing. Remember the Second great commandment was to love your neighbor as yourself.

You gave an example of something completely different than the point in question and then tried to debate me. I was agreeing with the example given....which you, by contrast, would apparently disagree with. -You are disagreeing with the Bible, not me.

Dont downplay the need for the community of saints or condemning the Church by pretending that all you need is a relationship with Christ.

You must be catholic. Try proving your point with scripture. You have no basis to stand on. When Jesus says you need to go through Him, and you are saved by grace through faith, that is all you need. "Saints" have no relevancy as per Jesus.

If someones claims to have a relationship with Christ and rejects the servants of Christ, he is a liar.

No, he is a Christian with sin in his life, like the rest of us.

Define "saints". Catholics like to throw that around with no idea what it means. "Saints" are those who have been saved by Christ's gift given upon His death on the cross. -Sanctified by His blood that was spilled.

Saints are not "chosen" by the opinion of some political structure who exploted 3rd world nations in order to spread their influence and rule by sword. They are not "chosen" by a pope who is a man and claims to be incarnating the power of christ by praying to the dead and interceding between you and Christ for your salvation if you give enough of your wealth, and preform rituals x number of times.

If you don't want to defend your point with Biblical scripture, I will understand. You are WAY out of your league.

 

[Avatar4321]

Dude, you are not the Bible so stop making your self righteously proclaim your interpretation of the Bible to be the only one.

You are too focused on the individual that you missed the entire point. That Christianity is more than just the individual. Its the body of believers as well. As long as you continue you argue that there is no organized body and that all you need is a personal relationship, you are going to be way out there because that is not the message found in the Bible despite your claims. Religious hobbies cause men to wrest the scriptures to their destruction. That is your problem. Christ has become a stumbling block for you.

If you think you will be saved in your sins then you misunderstand the scriptures.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
Dude, you are not the Bible so stop making your self righteously proclaim your interpretation of the Bible to be the only one.

Thats funny. So far you have not proved otherwise, and the Original Greek and Hebrew agree with my points. I guess one of us believes in the divinity of it, and the other likes to sculpt it like a lump of clay into whatever we want, huh?

You are too focused on the individual that you missed the entire point. That Christianity is more than just the individual. Its the body of believers as well. As long as you continue you argue that there is no organized body and that all you need is a personal relationship, you are going to be way out there because that is not the message found in the Bible despite your claims.

What I said, quite clearly to all, was that it IS all that is required for SALVATION. You are either needing a LOT of further research, or you have never read the point in question and have instead listened to someone else tell you what it says. Try reading it. I know catholocism generally frowns upon that, but guess what?

Jesus didn't make the thief on the cross talk to his MOTHER before allowing him into His kingdom.

Religious hobbies cause men to wrest the scriptures to their destruction. That is your problem. Christ has become a stumbling block for you.

Really? So glad you could clear that up for me. Again, since you have no scripture to back it up, and since the original texts agree with me, you are looking pretty unqualified in your statements.

If you think you will be saved in your sins then you misunderstand the scriptures.

Spoken like a true catholic. PROVE IT.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by NewGuy
Christianity is truly a faith of following Christ and believing he was what he claimed according to original inspired written texts of Greek and Hebrew origin as historically kept and verified which creates a complete "Bible".

Cults that use Christ as a central figure for pointing to and putting a spotlight on and then justifying their own versions of things, or behaviors, or beliefs outside of that are NOT Christian.

Roman Catholocism is just such a cult. Anyone building a political and decieving large scale movement of replacing God with man by praying to the dead for hopes of appeasing Christ when He claimed "nobody may come to the father but through me", and claiming that praying to the dead is sinful and wrong, and then claiming the CHURCH an authority that can dictate and dispense God's capacities for salvation IS A CULT.



That is because someone tells you things that feel good and sells you a brand name instead of giving you the cold hard facts. Someone telling you something is not reality. PROOF is reality.



History books in the public school system are comprised of socialist organizations educating the masses according to "science" to further a socialist agenda in the minds of youth. This is simple historical fact. Private schools don't fare much better due to law dictating a mandatory compliance and equality with public school cirriculum. In other words, you are taught what the system wants you to know or you do not get your diploma, and the school gets no legality.

If these churches you name are all part of the same "orthodox structure", then they all subscribe to some level of the parent faith of roman catholocism as the parent AUTHORITY. If Jim Jones was YOUR parent authority, wouldn't that undermine YOUR validity?

Being a "major religion" does not make anything fact anyway, just as islam and Buddists are not correct either.



If they were catholics and believed in man determining their salvation, and did not have a relationship with Christ, YES. That is not MY perspective, but the BIBLES. That is incredibly important.

Also, the ritualistic catholocism is just that. -RITUALS. It is a relationship with Christ, as dictated by scripture, which determines a Christian, not which church he/she attends.



Catholics are taught theirs is the only exclusive group to achieve heaven unless the pope says otherwise. -Kind of replaces God, doesn't it? Christ says all that believe in HIm shall not perish, but have everlasting life. The cult of catholocism wants their own following and must replace God's way with man's way and promote it if they want to keep their wealthy and political stature.

If they say "Christian", they lose validity as being distinct and therefore lose money and members, not to mention the perception of being the only true way even though it isn't.

As far as eastern orthodox, again: If the church is a cult, then the only other thing you can gauge by is wether or not the members have a relationship with Christ.



The Bible literally says a man with another man and a woman with a woman is an abomination. It is Biblical wording.



Christ declaired Himself in scripture to BE the new covenant which, He claimed, was the abolishing the requirement of following law for salvation, in place of following HIM for salvation. -This means that we are to no longer hold a sacrifice for each sinful thought and such. This also means any rule in the Old Covenant can be disregarded except for one nuance:

****The 10 Commandments, as claimed by Jesus, are still to be obeyed.****

-They are not an exclusive rule book required for salvation, but they are a model of behavior. Jews often miss the recognition of Jesus's divinity and are therefore still looking for Him to make His first appearance. That is why they will be decieved very shortly when the antichrist makes his appearance, the Jews will believe him to be Christ.

As far as the "gay" thing, Jesus still talked about sin and the proper way we ought to live. He also claimed He came not to REPLACE THE LAW but to FULFILL it. As such, he places the acknowledgement and recognition of sin appropriately and notes we are to call it out wherever we see it and condemn the activity. Also, though, we are to love our brothers no matter what their sins. This is hard for most people to rectify.



Old Covenant issues were fully acknowledged by the culture at the time. It wasn't a minority view in Israel, they were God's chosen people. Going against His word was a clear act of rebelling against God and was NOT common. Today, people have refused Christ for so long, they can't even tell you who he was. Again, though, the Commandments are our way we are instructed to live, but are not a prerequisite for salvation.



They are subordinate as they are manufactured to be such to their spouses. MEN ARE SUBORDINATE TO GOD BY THE SAME RULE. Women in power do not have odds with the context of scripture, but misinterpretations of it abound within churches because as we all know, any cult will justify anything to gain its power base. In addition to that, most people do not even WANT to know God well enough to READ IN CONTEXT their own scripture, and prove it against its self.



There ARE NO RULES FOR SALVATION BUT ONE:

Believe in Christ as your lord and savior, fully accepting Him into your life, and you shall be saved. Pray to him directly and submit to Him completely and you will be saved.

Which church you go to is irrelevant in your salvation unless they replace God's word with their own and undermine the above point. After you have opened a relationship with Christ, you then find a Bible following group (not very often anymore a big church) and grow in your learning of God's word.

If you have any questions, I am always open for PM.

This sorry soul represents the lunatic fringe. :teeth:

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
This sorry soul represents the lunatic fringe. :teeth:

Coming from you, I consider it a compliment.