Protests: Fifty Shades as Glamorizing Domestic Violence

[Thunderbird]

More specifically, how it is any business of yours what people do in the privacy of their own dungeons?

lol

 

[emilynghiem]

So you're suggesting that being a stay at home homemaker requires no intelligence or skill? If you say so. I totally disagree but that won't surprise either of us.

I am suggesting that any woman who would marry a person like you must not have much for brains.

How do you know she isn't smart enough to see his good points and forgive his faults?

Have you been reading his posts Emily? Women are for cleaning and cooking. They don't need a brain, he says. He says that abuse is not supposed to be for fun but for disciplinary purposes.

Hi ChrisL
If I read some kind of abusive spirit in his words and being, yes, this would send off red flags.

If some people are old fashioned and just see wifey as their matey to help them,
that's what I read also.

I don't agree with sexism, but I work with people from where they are coming from.

Where it does cause a problem, sure I would address that.
Like if he goes out of his way to STOP his wife from taking classes online cuz it's a threat to him,
that is controlling.

My own bf is funny in his own way, if my ideas help HIM get what he wants, suddenly it's a good idea.
If I am running around helping other people, not him, that's competing with his attention.

People do focus on what serves them.

The best way to work with people to balance interests equally
is to start by respecting where they are coming from first.

Establish where you DO agree equally. Then once you have a respecting relationship
then you can work through those differences as equals, with the UNDERSTANDING it is
to help them meet their interests, and isn't trying to go against what they want, but you are helping them
further those goals. If you don't even agree what the goals are you both respect, how can you use
that as a motivation?

Just been around people especially older folks enough
to know that you don't try to change people who are set in their ways.
If there is something they want that they aren't getting, maybe they'll listen to you if it helps them
get what they want.

So if you feel you can be some good influence on this guys' thinking,
why not start with finding out what good things he can share with you.
If it's a mutual exchange of better ideas how to improve, then it's a collaborative exchange, not combative.
And collaborative tends to work better.

I pretty much agree with you ChrisL on the core values and things that are important.
I think it's just the delivery and details where I approach things according to who I'm working with.
So there are not going to be absolutes, but variations on how to reach agreement with people
depending on the background they are coming from.

I still sense you and I agree at the core, so the rest can be worked out from there.
We'd be in trouble if we didn't agree on the basics but I see that we do.

Ask him some questions Emily. Ask him. He will come right out and tell you. I've had conversations with him before, so I already know how he feels about women and their "place" in society.

Sure we can get to that, but maybe the first step is to work past this judgment
of each other's views.

if not, that layer of emotion ends up skewing the conversation.

I find that forgiving and accepting people as we are as of right now, for what brought us here,
is important to keep the communication open and safe for sharing.

We need to start on solid EVEN footing at a neutral ground level, before digging through the attics and basements.

If we are attempting to do this while swinging up and down on a see saw or unstable surface
that gets out of hand quickly.

First let's level out where we stand, where we agree,
then we can walk, run, dance and do back flips all we want.

If there are some msgs you want to link to, that relate to this thread we can add that.
but if you and he think a new thread is needed just to focus on what he said to you
I think that is important. whichever way you want to do it, this is good to talk through!

Remember part of this exercise is also to help you let go of feelings you have attached.
You don't need to feel those in order to correct problems you see.
in fact it's better to let go sometimes so you can answer and explain more clearly
without emotions attached. As with your other posts, if you sidetrack and make
jabs at his wife that is emotional projection and not focused on the issues.
So part of this is letting go of those emotions that otherwise stir the pot and misdirect energy in distraction.

I'm glad you care so much, this is really refreshing to meet a likeminded driven person like
you willing to follow through. You are welcome to use the remainder of thread for whatever will help work that out.
Thanks!

 

[ChrisL]

I am suggesting that any woman who would marry a person like you must not have much for brains.

How do you know she isn't smart enough to see his good points and forgive his faults?

Have you been reading his posts Emily? Women are for cleaning and cooking. They don't need a brain, he says. He says that abuse is not supposed to be for fun but for disciplinary purposes.

Hi ChrisL
If I read some kind of abusive spirit in his words and being, yes, this would send off red flags.

If some people are old fashioned and just see wifey as their matey to help them,
that's what I read also.

I don't agree with sexism, but I work with people from where they are coming from.

Where it does cause a problem, sure I would address that.
Like if he goes out of his way to STOP his wife from taking classes online cuz it's a threat to him,
that is controlling.

My own bf is funny in his own way, if my ideas help HIM get what he wants, suddenly it's a good idea.
If I am running around helping other people, not him, that's competing with his attention.

People do focus on what serves them.

The best way to work with people to balance interests equally
is to start by respecting where they are coming from first.

Establish where you DO agree equally. Then once you have a respecting relationship
then you can work through those differences as equals, with the UNDERSTANDING it is
to help them meet their interests, and isn't trying to go against what they want, but you are helping them
further those goals. If you don't even agree what the goals are you both respect, how can you use
that as a motivation?

Just been around people especially older folks enough
to know that you don't try to change people who are set in their ways.
If there is something they want that they aren't getting, maybe they'll listen to you if it helps them
get what they want.

So if you feel you can be some good influence on this guys' thinking,
why not start with finding out what good things he can share with you.
If it's a mutual exchange of better ideas how to improve, then it's a collaborative exchange, not combative.
And collaborative tends to work better.

I pretty much agree with you ChrisL on the core values and things that are important.
I think it's just the delivery and details where I approach things according to who I'm working with.
So there are not going to be absolutes, but variations on how to reach agreement with people
depending on the background they are coming from.

I still sense you and I agree at the core, so the rest can be worked out from there.
We'd be in trouble if we didn't agree on the basics but I see that we do.

Ask him some questions Emily. Ask him. He will come right out and tell you. I've had conversations with him before, so I already know how he feels about women and their "place" in society.

Sure we can get to that, but maybe the first step is to work past this judgment
of each other's views.

if not, that layer of emotion ends up skewing the conversation.

I find that forgiving and accepting people as we are as of right now, for what brought us here,
is important to keep the communication open and safe for sharing.

We need to start on solid EVEN footing at a neutral ground level, before digging through the attics and basements.

If we are attempting to do this while swinging up and down on a see saw or unstable surface
that gets out of hand quickly.

First let's level out where we stand, where we agree,
then we can walk, run, dance and do back flips all we want.

If there are some msgs you want to link to, that relate to this thread we can add that.
but if you and he think a new thread is needed just to focus on what he said to you
I think that is important. whichever way you want to do it, this is good to talk through!

Remember part of this exercise is also to help you let go of feelings you have attached.
You don't need to feel those in order to correct problems you see.
in fact it's better to let go sometimes so you can answer and explain more clearly
without emotions attached. As with your other posts, if you sidetrack and make
jabs at his wife that is emotional projection and not focused on the issues.
So part of this is letting go of those emotions that otherwise stir the pot and misdirect energy in distraction.

I'm glad you care so much, this is really refreshing to meet a likeminded driven person like
you willing to follow through. You are welcome to use the remainder of thread for whatever will help work that out.
Thanks!

I can't help it, Emily. It's part of who I am. I am a very passionate person.

 

[emilynghiem]

BDSM is absolutely NOT about domestic abuse. It is not about one person abusing another, unwilling, person.

So it's okay to beat, degrade, torment, humiliate someone if they agree to the abuse?!

Who are you to say they are abused, degraded, or tormented? More specifically, how it is any business of yours what people do in the privacy of their own dungeons?

I think people want a way to make sure that
what is done in locked dungeons and basements is consensual

And not that kidnapping and rape stuff going on with trafficking,
or like that sick man in Cleveland who raped abducted girls over a period of 10 years
and nobody knew there was anything wrong going on.

People naturally are concerned and want to know that this isn't
the same sickness that needs therapy and/or is criminally suppressed.

 

[ChrisL]

BDSM is absolutely NOT about domestic abuse. It is not about one person abusing another, unwilling, person.

So it's okay to beat, degrade, torment, humiliate someone if they agree to the abuse?!

Who are you to say they are abused, degraded, or tormented? More specifically, how it is any business of yours what people do in the privacy of their own dungeons?

I think people want a way to make sure that
what is done in locked dungeons and basements is consensual

And not that kidnapping and rape stuff going on with trafficking,
or like that sick man in Cleveland who raped abducted girls over a period of 10 years
and nobody knew there was anything wrong going on.

People naturally are concerned and want to know that this isn't
the same sickness that needs therapy and/or is criminally suppressed.

Not me. I think a person who enjoys hurting another, even if consensual, has some huge issues and is not a very healthy or well-adjusted individual.

 

[emilynghiem]

How do you know she isn't smart enough to see his good points and forgive his faults?

Have you been reading his posts Emily? Women are for cleaning and cooking. They don't need a brain, he says. He says that abuse is not supposed to be for fun but for disciplinary purposes.

Hi ChrisL
If I read some kind of abusive spirit in his words and being, yes, this would send off red flags.

If some people are old fashioned and just see wifey as their matey to help them,
that's what I read also.

I don't agree with sexism, but I work with people from where they are coming from.

Where it does cause a problem, sure I would address that.
Like if he goes out of his way to STOP his wife from taking classes online cuz it's a threat to him,
that is controlling.

My own bf is funny in his own way, if my ideas help HIM get what he wants, suddenly it's a good idea.
If I am running around helping other people, not him, that's competing with his attention.

People do focus on what serves them.

The best way to work with people to balance interests equally
is to start by respecting where they are coming from first.

Establish where you DO agree equally. Then once you have a respecting relationship
then you can work through those differences as equals, with the UNDERSTANDING it is
to help them meet their interests, and isn't trying to go against what they want, but you are helping them
further those goals. If you don't even agree what the goals are you both respect, how can you use
that as a motivation?

Just been around people especially older folks enough
to know that you don't try to change people who are set in their ways.
If there is something they want that they aren't getting, maybe they'll listen to you if it helps them
get what they want.

So if you feel you can be some good influence on this guys' thinking,
why not start with finding out what good things he can share with you.
If it's a mutual exchange of better ideas how to improve, then it's a collaborative exchange, not combative.
And collaborative tends to work better.

I pretty much agree with you ChrisL on the core values and things that are important.
I think it's just the delivery and details where I approach things according to who I'm working with.
So there are not going to be absolutes, but variations on how to reach agreement with people
depending on the background they are coming from.

I still sense you and I agree at the core, so the rest can be worked out from there.
We'd be in trouble if we didn't agree on the basics but I see that we do.

Ask him some questions Emily. Ask him. He will come right out and tell you. I've had conversations with him before, so I already know how he feels about women and their "place" in society.

Sure we can get to that, but maybe the first step is to work past this judgment
of each other's views.

if not, that layer of emotion ends up skewing the conversation.

I find that forgiving and accepting people as we are as of right now, for what brought us here,
is important to keep the communication open and safe for sharing.

We need to start on solid EVEN footing at a neutral ground level, before digging through the attics and basements.

If we are attempting to do this while swinging up and down on a see saw or unstable surface
that gets out of hand quickly.

First let's level out where we stand, where we agree,
then we can walk, run, dance and do back flips all we want.

If there are some msgs you want to link to, that relate to this thread we can add that.
but if you and he think a new thread is needed just to focus on what he said to you
I think that is important. whichever way you want to do it, this is good to talk through!

Remember part of this exercise is also to help you let go of feelings you have attached.
You don't need to feel those in order to correct problems you see.
in fact it's better to let go sometimes so you can answer and explain more clearly
without emotions attached. As with your other posts, if you sidetrack and make
jabs at his wife that is emotional projection and not focused on the issues.
So part of this is letting go of those emotions that otherwise stir the pot and misdirect energy in distraction.

I'm glad you care so much, this is really refreshing to meet a likeminded driven person like
you willing to follow through. You are welcome to use the remainder of thread for whatever will help work that out.
Thanks!

I can't help it, Emily. It's part of who I am. I am a very passionate person.

That's perfect, you are exactly as you should be and that will not change.
(BTW i was deliberately joking when I made that wife comment referring to HIS wife)

Because you are so passionate and sensitive that's why this exercise
is also to help you practice directing those passions without going off track.

So you may be sharing something with him to influence him to be more considerate
about what's going on with the other half of himself
But he would also be helping you to think and focus without emotionally charged judgment.

So you work on your half and he works on his.
You both become better, evenly minded people.

Your passions are still there, as ever, but they don't have to come out as anger.
They can come out as sincern concern and compassion because you want him to have
the most happiness and satisfaction he can have. It's easier to hear you that way.
But anger and judgment is not as well received.

 

[emilynghiem]

BDSM is absolutely NOT about domestic abuse. It is not about one person abusing another, unwilling, person.

So it's okay to beat, degrade, torment, humiliate someone if they agree to the abuse?!

Who are you to say they are abused, degraded, or tormented? More specifically, how it is any business of yours what people do in the privacy of their own dungeons?

I think people want a way to make sure that
what is done in locked dungeons and basements is consensual

And not that kidnapping and rape stuff going on with trafficking,
or like that sick man in Cleveland who raped abducted girls over a period of 10 years
and nobody knew there was anything wrong going on.

People naturally are concerned and want to know that this isn't
the same sickness that needs therapy and/or is criminally suppressed.

Not me. I think a person who enjoys hurting another, even if consensual, has some huge issues and is not a very healthy or well-adjusted individual.

And by yours and my definitions that is NOT consensual.
So we agree.

 

[ChrisL]

I am suggesting that any woman who would marry a person like you must not have much for brains.

How do you know she isn't smart enough to see his good points and forgive his faults?

Have you been reading his posts Emily? Women are for cleaning and cooking. They don't need a brain, he says. He says that abuse is not supposed to be for fun but for disciplinary purposes.

Hi ChrisL
If I read some kind of abusive spirit in his words and being, yes, this would send off red flags.

If some people are old fashioned and just see wifey as their matey to help them,
that's what I read also.

I don't agree with sexism, but I work with people from where they are coming from.

Where it does cause a problem, sure I would address that.
Like if he goes out of his way to STOP his wife from taking classes online cuz it's a threat to him,
that is controlling.

My own bf is funny in his own way, if my ideas help HIM get what he wants, suddenly it's a good idea.
If I am running around helping other people, not him, that's competing with his attention.

People do focus on what serves them.

The best way to work with people to balance interests equally
is to start by respecting where they are coming from first.

Establish where you DO agree equally. Then once you have a respecting relationship
then you can work through those differences as equals, with the UNDERSTANDING it is
to help them meet their interests, and isn't trying to go against what they want, but you are helping them
further those goals. If you don't even agree what the goals are you both respect, how can you use
that as a motivation?

Just been around people especially older folks enough
to know that you don't try to change people who are set in their ways.
If there is something they want that they aren't getting, maybe they'll listen to you if it helps them
get what they want.

So if you feel you can be some good influence on this guys' thinking,
why not start with finding out what good things he can share with you.
If it's a mutual exchange of better ideas how to improve, then it's a collaborative exchange, not combative.
And collaborative tends to work better.

I pretty much agree with you ChrisL on the core values and things that are important.
I think it's just the delivery and details where I approach things according to who I'm working with.
So there are not going to be absolutes, but variations on how to reach agreement with people
depending on the background they are coming from.

I still sense you and I agree at the core, so the rest can be worked out from there.
We'd be in trouble if we didn't agree on the basics but I see that we do.

Ask him some questions Emily. Ask him. He will come right out and tell you. I've had conversations with him before, so I already know how he feels about women and their "place" in society.

Sure we can get to that, but maybe the first step is to work past this judgment
of each other's views.

if not, that layer of emotion ends up skewing the conversation.

I find that forgiving and accepting people as we are as of right now, for what brought us here,
is important to keep the communication open and safe for sharing.

We need to start on solid EVEN footing at a neutral ground level, before digging through the attics and basements.

If we are attempting to do this while swinging up and down on a see saw or unstable surface
that gets out of hand quickly.

First let's level out where we stand, where we agree,
then we can walk, run, dance and do back flips all we want.

If there are some msgs you want to link to, that relate to this thread we can add that.
but if you and he think a new thread is needed just to focus on what he said to you
I think that is important. whichever way you want to do it, this is good to talk through!

Remember part of this exercise is also to help you let go of feelings you have attached.
You don't need to feel those in order to correct problems you see.
in fact it's better to let go sometimes so you can answer and explain more clearly
without emotions attached. As with your other posts, if you sidetrack and make
jabs at his wife that is emotional projection and not focused on the issues.
So part of this is letting go of those emotions that otherwise stir the pot and misdirect energy in distraction.

I'm glad you care so much, this is really refreshing to meet a likeminded driven person like
you willing to follow through. You are welcome to use the remainder of thread for whatever will help work that out.
Thanks!

Oh, and about the insulting. I am not the one here revealing my sexual proclivities.

 

[ChrisL]

BDSM is absolutely NOT about domestic abuse. It is not about one person abusing another, unwilling, person.

So it's okay to beat, degrade, torment, humiliate someone if they agree to the abuse?!

Who are you to say they are abused, degraded, or tormented? More specifically, how it is any business of yours what people do in the privacy of their own dungeons?

I think people want a way to make sure that
what is done in locked dungeons and basements is consensual

And not that kidnapping and rape stuff going on with trafficking,
or like that sick man in Cleveland who raped abducted girls over a period of 10 years
and nobody knew there was anything wrong going on.

People naturally are concerned and want to know that this isn't
the same sickness that needs therapy and/or is criminally suppressed.

Not me. I think a person who enjoys hurting another, even if consensual, has some huge issues and is not a very healthy or well-adjusted individual.

And by yours and my definitions that is NOT consensual.
So we agree.

My point is, that even if a person AGREES to allow the other person to hurt them, there is still something the matter with the person who derives PLEASURE from hurting another person. Like my stabbing the hand example earlier. If someone approached you and said I enjoy being stabbed in the hand. Would you stab me in the hand? I am quite sure you would NOT want to stab them and that you would derive no pleasure from doing it. Correct?

 

[emilynghiem]

How do you know she isn't smart enough to see his good points and forgive his faults?

Have you been reading his posts Emily? Women are for cleaning and cooking. They don't need a brain, he says. He says that abuse is not supposed to be for fun but for disciplinary purposes.

Hi ChrisL
If I read some kind of abusive spirit in his words and being, yes, this would send off red flags.

If some people are old fashioned and just see wifey as their matey to help them,
that's what I read also.

I don't agree with sexism, but I work with people from where they are coming from.

Where it does cause a problem, sure I would address that.
Like if he goes out of his way to STOP his wife from taking classes online cuz it's a threat to him,
that is controlling.

My own bf is funny in his own way, if my ideas help HIM get what he wants, suddenly it's a good idea.
If I am running around helping other people, not him, that's competing with his attention.

People do focus on what serves them.

The best way to work with people to balance interests equally
is to start by respecting where they are coming from first.

Establish where you DO agree equally. Then once you have a respecting relationship
then you can work through those differences as equals, with the UNDERSTANDING it is
to help them meet their interests, and isn't trying to go against what they want, but you are helping them
further those goals. If you don't even agree what the goals are you both respect, how can you use
that as a motivation?

Just been around people especially older folks enough
to know that you don't try to change people who are set in their ways.
If there is something they want that they aren't getting, maybe they'll listen to you if it helps them
get what they want.

So if you feel you can be some good influence on this guys' thinking,
why not start with finding out what good things he can share with you.
If it's a mutual exchange of better ideas how to improve, then it's a collaborative exchange, not combative.
And collaborative tends to work better.

I pretty much agree with you ChrisL on the core values and things that are important.
I think it's just the delivery and details where I approach things according to who I'm working with.
So there are not going to be absolutes, but variations on how to reach agreement with people
depending on the background they are coming from.

I still sense you and I agree at the core, so the rest can be worked out from there.
We'd be in trouble if we didn't agree on the basics but I see that we do.

Ask him some questions Emily. Ask him. He will come right out and tell you. I've had conversations with him before, so I already know how he feels about women and their "place" in society.

Sure we can get to that, but maybe the first step is to work past this judgment
of each other's views.

if not, that layer of emotion ends up skewing the conversation.

I find that forgiving and accepting people as we are as of right now, for what brought us here,
is important to keep the communication open and safe for sharing.

We need to start on solid EVEN footing at a neutral ground level, before digging through the attics and basements.

If we are attempting to do this while swinging up and down on a see saw or unstable surface
that gets out of hand quickly.

First let's level out where we stand, where we agree,
then we can walk, run, dance and do back flips all we want.

If there are some msgs you want to link to, that relate to this thread we can add that.
but if you and he think a new thread is needed just to focus on what he said to you
I think that is important. whichever way you want to do it, this is good to talk through!

Remember part of this exercise is also to help you let go of feelings you have attached.
You don't need to feel those in order to correct problems you see.
in fact it's better to let go sometimes so you can answer and explain more clearly
without emotions attached. As with your other posts, if you sidetrack and make
jabs at his wife that is emotional projection and not focused on the issues.
So part of this is letting go of those emotions that otherwise stir the pot and misdirect energy in distraction.

I'm glad you care so much, this is really refreshing to meet a likeminded driven person like
you willing to follow through. You are welcome to use the remainder of thread for whatever will help work that out.
Thanks!

Oh, and about the insulting. I am not the one here revealing my sexual proclivities.

Why does that necessarily necessitate insulting anyone?

Even if someone insults you, there are ways to shut that down and not encourage more.

Stick to the points. You'll get more respect that way.
The emotionally charged judgments end up distracting from
what otherwise are equally valid points you make.

You don't need to attach emotions or judgments to make those points.

 

[ChrisL]

Have you been reading his posts Emily? Women are for cleaning and cooking. They don't need a brain, he says. He says that abuse is not supposed to be for fun but for disciplinary purposes.

Hi ChrisL
If I read some kind of abusive spirit in his words and being, yes, this would send off red flags.

If some people are old fashioned and just see wifey as their matey to help them,
that's what I read also.

I don't agree with sexism, but I work with people from where they are coming from.

Where it does cause a problem, sure I would address that.
Like if he goes out of his way to STOP his wife from taking classes online cuz it's a threat to him,
that is controlling.

My own bf is funny in his own way, if my ideas help HIM get what he wants, suddenly it's a good idea.
If I am running around helping other people, not him, that's competing with his attention.

People do focus on what serves them.

The best way to work with people to balance interests equally
is to start by respecting where they are coming from first.

Establish where you DO agree equally. Then once you have a respecting relationship
then you can work through those differences as equals, with the UNDERSTANDING it is
to help them meet their interests, and isn't trying to go against what they want, but you are helping them
further those goals. If you don't even agree what the goals are you both respect, how can you use
that as a motivation?

Just been around people especially older folks enough
to know that you don't try to change people who are set in their ways.
If there is something they want that they aren't getting, maybe they'll listen to you if it helps them
get what they want.

So if you feel you can be some good influence on this guys' thinking,
why not start with finding out what good things he can share with you.
If it's a mutual exchange of better ideas how to improve, then it's a collaborative exchange, not combative.
And collaborative tends to work better.

I pretty much agree with you ChrisL on the core values and things that are important.
I think it's just the delivery and details where I approach things according to who I'm working with.
So there are not going to be absolutes, but variations on how to reach agreement with people
depending on the background they are coming from.

I still sense you and I agree at the core, so the rest can be worked out from there.
We'd be in trouble if we didn't agree on the basics but I see that we do.

Ask him some questions Emily. Ask him. He will come right out and tell you. I've had conversations with him before, so I already know how he feels about women and their "place" in society.

Sure we can get to that, but maybe the first step is to work past this judgment
of each other's views.

if not, that layer of emotion ends up skewing the conversation.

I find that forgiving and accepting people as we are as of right now, for what brought us here,
is important to keep the communication open and safe for sharing.

We need to start on solid EVEN footing at a neutral ground level, before digging through the attics and basements.

If we are attempting to do this while swinging up and down on a see saw or unstable surface
that gets out of hand quickly.

First let's level out where we stand, where we agree,
then we can walk, run, dance and do back flips all we want.

If there are some msgs you want to link to, that relate to this thread we can add that.
but if you and he think a new thread is needed just to focus on what he said to you
I think that is important. whichever way you want to do it, this is good to talk through!

Remember part of this exercise is also to help you let go of feelings you have attached.
You don't need to feel those in order to correct problems you see.
in fact it's better to let go sometimes so you can answer and explain more clearly
without emotions attached. As with your other posts, if you sidetrack and make
jabs at his wife that is emotional projection and not focused on the issues.
So part of this is letting go of those emotions that otherwise stir the pot and misdirect energy in distraction.

I'm glad you care so much, this is really refreshing to meet a likeminded driven person like
you willing to follow through. You are welcome to use the remainder of thread for whatever will help work that out.
Thanks!

I can't help it, Emily. It's part of who I am. I am a very passionate person.

That's perfect, you are exactly as you should be and that will not change.
(BTW i was deliberately joking when I made that wife comment referring to HIS wife)

Because you are so passionate and sensitive that's why this exercise
is also to help you practice directing those passions without going off track.

So you may be sharing something with him to influence him to be more considerate
about what's going on with the other half of himself
But he would also be helping you to think and focus without emotionally charged judgment.

So you work on your half and he works on his.
You both become better, evenly minded people.

Your passions are still there, as ever, but they don't have to come out as anger.
They can come out as sincern concern and compassion because you want him to have
the most happiness and satisfaction he can have. It's easier to hear you that way.
But anger and judgment is not as well received.

I can admit that I am not very good at controlling my anger. My mother was the same.

 

[ChrisL]

Have you been reading his posts Emily? Women are for cleaning and cooking. They don't need a brain, he says. He says that abuse is not supposed to be for fun but for disciplinary purposes.

Hi ChrisL
If I read some kind of abusive spirit in his words and being, yes, this would send off red flags.

If some people are old fashioned and just see wifey as their matey to help them,
that's what I read also.

I don't agree with sexism, but I work with people from where they are coming from.

Where it does cause a problem, sure I would address that.
Like if he goes out of his way to STOP his wife from taking classes online cuz it's a threat to him,
that is controlling.

My own bf is funny in his own way, if my ideas help HIM get what he wants, suddenly it's a good idea.
If I am running around helping other people, not him, that's competing with his attention.

People do focus on what serves them.

The best way to work with people to balance interests equally
is to start by respecting where they are coming from first.

Establish where you DO agree equally. Then once you have a respecting relationship
then you can work through those differences as equals, with the UNDERSTANDING it is
to help them meet their interests, and isn't trying to go against what they want, but you are helping them
further those goals. If you don't even agree what the goals are you both respect, how can you use
that as a motivation?

Just been around people especially older folks enough
to know that you don't try to change people who are set in their ways.
If there is something they want that they aren't getting, maybe they'll listen to you if it helps them
get what they want.

So if you feel you can be some good influence on this guys' thinking,
why not start with finding out what good things he can share with you.
If it's a mutual exchange of better ideas how to improve, then it's a collaborative exchange, not combative.
And collaborative tends to work better.

I pretty much agree with you ChrisL on the core values and things that are important.
I think it's just the delivery and details where I approach things according to who I'm working with.
So there are not going to be absolutes, but variations on how to reach agreement with people
depending on the background they are coming from.

I still sense you and I agree at the core, so the rest can be worked out from there.
We'd be in trouble if we didn't agree on the basics but I see that we do.

Ask him some questions Emily. Ask him. He will come right out and tell you. I've had conversations with him before, so I already know how he feels about women and their "place" in society.

Sure we can get to that, but maybe the first step is to work past this judgment
of each other's views.

if not, that layer of emotion ends up skewing the conversation.

I find that forgiving and accepting people as we are as of right now, for what brought us here,
is important to keep the communication open and safe for sharing.

We need to start on solid EVEN footing at a neutral ground level, before digging through the attics and basements.

If we are attempting to do this while swinging up and down on a see saw or unstable surface
that gets out of hand quickly.

First let's level out where we stand, where we agree,
then we can walk, run, dance and do back flips all we want.

If there are some msgs you want to link to, that relate to this thread we can add that.
but if you and he think a new thread is needed just to focus on what he said to you
I think that is important. whichever way you want to do it, this is good to talk through!

Remember part of this exercise is also to help you let go of feelings you have attached.
You don't need to feel those in order to correct problems you see.
in fact it's better to let go sometimes so you can answer and explain more clearly
without emotions attached. As with your other posts, if you sidetrack and make
jabs at his wife that is emotional projection and not focused on the issues.
So part of this is letting go of those emotions that otherwise stir the pot and misdirect energy in distraction.

I'm glad you care so much, this is really refreshing to meet a likeminded driven person like
you willing to follow through. You are welcome to use the remainder of thread for whatever will help work that out.
Thanks!

Oh, and about the insulting. I am not the one here revealing my sexual proclivities.

Why does that necessarily necessitate insulting anyone?

Even if someone insults you, there are ways to shut that down and not encourage more.

Stick to the points. You'll get more respect that way.
The emotionally charged judgments end up distracting from
what otherwise are equally valid points you make.

You don't need to attach emotions or judgments to make those points.

I am a human being, Emily. I have emotions that are very strong and difficult to control. If I didn't feel strongly about a topic, I wouldn't bother posting about it. Besides, I am certainly not the ONLY one who has thrown about insults in this thread.

 

[emilynghiem]

My point is, that even if a person AGREES to allow the other person to hurt them, there is still something the matter with the person who derives PLEASURE from hurting another person. Like my stabbing the hand example earlier. If someone approached you and said I enjoy being stabbed in the hand. Would you stab me in the hand? I am quite sure you would NOT want to stab them and that you would derive no pleasure from doing it. Correct?

I AGREE that as I described previously for cases where
either or both people is not REALLY consenting but is masking issues,
that's NOT real consent.

That rule is still true.

Now you are free to know that this rule applies to ALL cases,
but in order to make your point, it isn't necessary to assume that.

You can still make the point by citing the GENERAL rule
that in cases where people are suppressing unconscious issues
and are expressing this as abuse that they believe is consensual,
it really isn't.

On that point you can agree.

Again, start with forming an agreement on the basic principles first,
and THEN you can launch into the next point:

If you and I want to prove a point that ALL cases involve this,
then I'd follow up on scientific studies of healing, and apply this to abuse cases,
and show that all or the majority of subjects, after going through healing, renounced
their past sexual behavior as unnatural and returned to their true ways and needs.

We can prove that works, but not here and now. Until then, it can go in arguments
without proof that all such cases involve some unnatural issues that are making it "not true consent."

Now if we can get past this arguing over judgments of people for their beliefs,
maybe we can get to the proof of spiritual healing and prove how that changes things.

If they haven't seen proof, then how do you expect them to suddenly know what
you mean by not really consenting, if they really think everyone is ?

ChrisL I think you are getting ahead of yourself and where others are
because you see where this is going. We would have to show proof yet,
and maybe that can be done later, but we can't even get to that if
you are still jumping the gun and trying to take where you want to get to,
and assuming and asserting it at the beginning.

I think we need a starting point where we AGREE what is the norm
that all parties agree on, BEFORE adding what you are saying on top of that.

 

[emilynghiem]

Hi ChrisL
If I read some kind of abusive spirit in his words and being, yes, this would send off red flags.

If some people are old fashioned and just see wifey as their matey to help them,
that's what I read also.

I don't agree with sexism, but I work with people from where they are coming from.

Where it does cause a problem, sure I would address that.
Like if he goes out of his way to STOP his wife from taking classes online cuz it's a threat to him,
that is controlling.

My own bf is funny in his own way, if my ideas help HIM get what he wants, suddenly it's a good idea.
If I am running around helping other people, not him, that's competing with his attention.

People do focus on what serves them.

The best way to work with people to balance interests equally
is to start by respecting where they are coming from first.

Establish where you DO agree equally. Then once you have a respecting relationship
then you can work through those differences as equals, with the UNDERSTANDING it is
to help them meet their interests, and isn't trying to go against what they want, but you are helping them
further those goals. If you don't even agree what the goals are you both respect, how can you use
that as a motivation?

Just been around people especially older folks enough
to know that you don't try to change people who are set in their ways.
If there is something they want that they aren't getting, maybe they'll listen to you if it helps them
get what they want.

So if you feel you can be some good influence on this guys' thinking,
why not start with finding out what good things he can share with you.
If it's a mutual exchange of better ideas how to improve, then it's a collaborative exchange, not combative.
And collaborative tends to work better.

I pretty much agree with you ChrisL on the core values and things that are important.
I think it's just the delivery and details where I approach things according to who I'm working with.
So there are not going to be absolutes, but variations on how to reach agreement with people
depending on the background they are coming from.

I still sense you and I agree at the core, so the rest can be worked out from there.
We'd be in trouble if we didn't agree on the basics but I see that we do.

Ask him some questions Emily. Ask him. He will come right out and tell you. I've had conversations with him before, so I already know how he feels about women and their "place" in society.

Sure we can get to that, but maybe the first step is to work past this judgment
of each other's views.

if not, that layer of emotion ends up skewing the conversation.

I find that forgiving and accepting people as we are as of right now, for what brought us here,
is important to keep the communication open and safe for sharing.

We need to start on solid EVEN footing at a neutral ground level, before digging through the attics and basements.

If we are attempting to do this while swinging up and down on a see saw or unstable surface
that gets out of hand quickly.

First let's level out where we stand, where we agree,
then we can walk, run, dance and do back flips all we want.

If there are some msgs you want to link to, that relate to this thread we can add that.
but if you and he think a new thread is needed just to focus on what he said to you
I think that is important. whichever way you want to do it, this is good to talk through!

Remember part of this exercise is also to help you let go of feelings you have attached.
You don't need to feel those in order to correct problems you see.
in fact it's better to let go sometimes so you can answer and explain more clearly
without emotions attached. As with your other posts, if you sidetrack and make
jabs at his wife that is emotional projection and not focused on the issues.
So part of this is letting go of those emotions that otherwise stir the pot and misdirect energy in distraction.

I'm glad you care so much, this is really refreshing to meet a likeminded driven person like
you willing to follow through. You are welcome to use the remainder of thread for whatever will help work that out.
Thanks!

Oh, and about the insulting. I am not the one here revealing my sexual proclivities.

Why does that necessarily necessitate insulting anyone?

Even if someone insults you, there are ways to shut that down and not encourage more.

Stick to the points. You'll get more respect that way.
The emotionally charged judgments end up distracting from
what otherwise are equally valid points you make.

You don't need to attach emotions or judgments to make those points.

I am a human being, Emily. I have emotions that are very strong and difficult to control. If I didn't feel strongly about a topic, I wouldn't bother posting about it. Besides, I am certainly not the ONLY one who has thrown about insults in this thread.

I know, but you and I can only take responsibility for the insults we throw.
We can't help if other people throw them, but we can control how we respond
so we stay focused and centered. Sorry this went too far and hurt your feelings,
hon, I thought you were play joking. See, even with verbal humor, we can cross bounds
and one person thought it was consensual joking, but it turns out someone was getting hurt.

Sorry, I feel bad this happened on THIS thread of all places,
but maybe we can use it as an example that what looks consensual really isn't.
And that is where real damage gets done, even if people thought it was agreed to.

so given that you aren't happy with the insults flying, can we agree to stop it
and agree that wasn't consensual after all. At least we can gain understanding how easily it happens.

Sorry it happened here, can we fix it and learn from it? Thanks ChrisL
thank you for sharing on here and using this thread to get it all out in the open!

 

[ChrisL]

Ask him some questions Emily. Ask him. He will come right out and tell you. I've had conversations with him before, so I already know how he feels about women and their "place" in society.

Sure we can get to that, but maybe the first step is to work past this judgment
of each other's views.

if not, that layer of emotion ends up skewing the conversation.

I find that forgiving and accepting people as we are as of right now, for what brought us here,
is important to keep the communication open and safe for sharing.

We need to start on solid EVEN footing at a neutral ground level, before digging through the attics and basements.

If we are attempting to do this while swinging up and down on a see saw or unstable surface
that gets out of hand quickly.

First let's level out where we stand, where we agree,
then we can walk, run, dance and do back flips all we want.

If there are some msgs you want to link to, that relate to this thread we can add that.
but if you and he think a new thread is needed just to focus on what he said to you
I think that is important. whichever way you want to do it, this is good to talk through!

Remember part of this exercise is also to help you let go of feelings you have attached.
You don't need to feel those in order to correct problems you see.
in fact it's better to let go sometimes so you can answer and explain more clearly
without emotions attached. As with your other posts, if you sidetrack and make
jabs at his wife that is emotional projection and not focused on the issues.
So part of this is letting go of those emotions that otherwise stir the pot and misdirect energy in distraction.

I'm glad you care so much, this is really refreshing to meet a likeminded driven person like
you willing to follow through. You are welcome to use the remainder of thread for whatever will help work that out.
Thanks!

Oh, and about the insulting. I am not the one here revealing my sexual proclivities.

Why does that necessarily necessitate insulting anyone?

Even if someone insults you, there are ways to shut that down and not encourage more.

Stick to the points. You'll get more respect that way.
The emotionally charged judgments end up distracting from
what otherwise are equally valid points you make.

You don't need to attach emotions or judgments to make those points.

I am a human being, Emily. I have emotions that are very strong and difficult to control. If I didn't feel strongly about a topic, I wouldn't bother posting about it. Besides, I am certainly not the ONLY one who has thrown about insults in this thread.

I know, but you and I can only take responsibility for the insults we throw.
We can't help if other people throw them, but we can control how we respond
so we stay focused and centered. Sorry this went too far and hurt your feelings,
hon, I thought you were play joking. See, even with verbal humor, we can cross bounds
and one person thought it was consensual joking, but it turns out someone was getting hurt.

Sorry, I feel bad this happened on THIS thread of all places,
but maybe we can use it as an example that what looks consensual really isn't.
And that is where real damage gets done, even if people thought it was agreed to.

Sorry it happened here, can we fix it and learn from it? Thanks ChrisL
thank you for sharing on here and using this thread to get it all out in the open!

Lol. My feelings aren't hurt. I am a tough *****, Emily. This is only a forum. It has no effect on my real life. I don't even know these people.

 

[ChrisL]

My point is, that even if a person AGREES to allow the other person to hurt them, there is still something the matter with the person who derives PLEASURE from hurting another person. Like my stabbing the hand example earlier. If someone approached you and said I enjoy being stabbed in the hand. Would you stab me in the hand? I am quite sure you would NOT want to stab them and that you would derive no pleasure from doing it. Correct?

I AGREE that as I described previously for cases where
either or both people is not REALLY consenting but is masking issues,
that's NOT real consent.

That rule is still true.

Now you are free to know that this rule applies to ALL cases,
but in order to make your point, it isn't necessary to assume that.

You can still make the point by citing the GENERAL rule
that in cases where people are suppressing unconscious issues
and are expressing this as abuse that they believe is consensual,
it really isn't.

On that point you can agree.

Again, start with forming an agreement on the basic principles first,
and THEN you can launch into the next point:

If you and I want to prove a point that ALL cases involve this,
then I'd follow up on scientific studies of healing, and apply this to abuse cases,
and show that all or the majority of subjects, after going through healing, renounced
their past sexual behavior as unnatural and returned to their true ways and needs.

We can prove that works, but not here and now. Until then, it can go in arguments
without proof that all such cases involve some unnatural issues that are making it "not true consent."

Now if we can get past this arguing over judgments of people for their beliefs,
maybe we can get to the proof of spiritual healing and prove how that changes things.

If they haven't seen proof, then how do you expect them to suddenly know what
you mean by not really consenting, if they really think everyone is ?

ChrisL I think you are getting ahead of yourself and where others are
because you see where this is going. We would have to show proof yet,
and maybe that can be done later, but we can't even get to that if
you are still jumping the gun and trying to take where you want to get to,
and assuming and asserting it at the beginning.

I think we need a starting point where we AGREE what is the norm
that all parties agree on, BEFORE adding what you are saying on top of that.

Sorry, Emily, but I think this is an issue we will have to agree to disagree on. I feel that a person who derives pleasure from another person's pain is a sick individual. That is just MY opinion. I don't have anything to prove. I would avoid such people in my personal life, and this forum is basically all about expressing our opinions on the hot topics.

 

[emilynghiem]

I can admit that I am not very good at controlling my anger. My mother was the same.

Hmmm we have something in common, where my Dad had this angry passion
that would make him turn into a screaming machine, and when I get pushed past
my limits, gee whiz, Incredible Hulk time!

I have to draw on the wise patience of my mother to check that side of me.

What do you use to offset when your anger flares up.
Sometimes anger can help burn away the impure thoughts so it is cleansing.
sometimes it motivates courage to change, but once you get that focus,
it is better to convert the anger to compassion so that is more sustainable energy to push
yourself without pushing others away.

I don't handle anger very well. I have to think of compassionate or even
sorrowful thoughts, being SAD for the situation to calm me down sometimes.
If I can cry I can cope, but anger makes it impossible to think straight.
I just want to go on hunger strike and threaten everybody to cut it out now or I won't eat!!!

 

[emilynghiem]

My point is, that even if a person AGREES to allow the other person to hurt them, there is still something the matter with the person who derives PLEASURE from hurting another person. Like my stabbing the hand example earlier. If someone approached you and said I enjoy being stabbed in the hand. Would you stab me in the hand? I am quite sure you would NOT want to stab them and that you would derive no pleasure from doing it. Correct?

I AGREE that as I described previously for cases where
either or both people is not REALLY consenting but is masking issues,
that's NOT real consent.

That rule is still true.

Now you are free to know that this rule applies to ALL cases,
but in order to make your point, it isn't necessary to assume that.

You can still make the point by citing the GENERAL rule
that in cases where people are suppressing unconscious issues
and are expressing this as abuse that they believe is consensual,
it really isn't.

On that point you can agree.

Again, start with forming an agreement on the basic principles first,
and THEN you can launch into the next point:

If you and I want to prove a point that ALL cases involve this,
then I'd follow up on scientific studies of healing, and apply this to abuse cases,
and show that all or the majority of subjects, after going through healing, renounced
their past sexual behavior as unnatural and returned to their true ways and needs.

We can prove that works, but not here and now. Until then, it can go in arguments
without proof that all such cases involve some unnatural issues that are making it "not true consent."

Now if we can get past this arguing over judgments of people for their beliefs,
maybe we can get to the proof of spiritual healing and prove how that changes things.

If they haven't seen proof, then how do you expect them to suddenly know what
you mean by not really consenting, if they really think everyone is ?

ChrisL I think you are getting ahead of yourself and where others are
because you see where this is going. We would have to show proof yet,
and maybe that can be done later, but we can't even get to that if
you are still jumping the gun and trying to take where you want to get to,
and assuming and asserting it at the beginning.

I think we need a starting point where we AGREE what is the norm
that all parties agree on, BEFORE adding what you are saying on top of that.

Sorry, Emily, but I think this is an issue we will have to agree to disagree on. I feel that a person who derives pleasure from another person's pain is a sick individual. That is just MY opinion. I don't have anything to prove. I would avoid such people in my personal life, and this forum is basically all about expressing our opinions on the hot topics.

I agree I'm saying that in order to work through a proof to get on the same page,
you have to start at neutral and build from there.

You don't start from opposite sides pushing against each other.
You have to push from the same direction to get where you want to go.

I tell you what, ChrisL, look up the steps to conflict resolution
mediation, etc. something that shows how to handle the emotional side
and not let it interfere with the communication process.

I think I have some pointers I saved here:
http www.houstonprogressive.org

I think if we map out where we're starting and where you want to end
up, you can follow the process and see that it isn't contradicting what you ultimately believe in.

 

[Disir]

Nope.

Hey, you two are into that sick shit. What's the problem? Now you're offended by it?

I'm not offended. Your childlike idiocy is rather tedious.

Hmmmm... maybe she's looking to get spanked or whipped? Yeowch!

On a political forum board? She does reek of desperation.

Verbal spankings and whippings can be good exercise for the brain,
and keep the ego slimmer. And don't leave red marks on your boo boo.

Ah, she's simply an attention whore.

I have no patience for those.

 

[emilynghiem]

Sorry, Emily, but I think this is an issue we will have to agree to disagree on. I feel that a person who derives pleasure from another person's pain is a sick individual. That is just MY opinion. I don't have anything to prove. I would avoid such people in my personal life, and this forum is basically all about expressing our opinions on the hot topics.

I see all these online interactions as a form of group therapy.
Whether we like it or not, we are projecting our personal issues,
whether mommy issues or daddy issues,
whenever we confront conflicts that bring out either our best or worst sides.

the point of the exercises is to identify where we have loaded or attached emotions
and learn to let that go while keeping the good points and principles we are enforcing.

We learn to communicate more effectively
even if it starts by using each other as easy target practice.
by the time we get to the real issues, we need to become
sharp shooters and learn to hit the target and not each other.