Prop 8 in California

[Truthspeaker]

For us to breathe and walk and decide and be so much better than the animals plus the order of the universe IS proof. This stuff cannot happen by mere chance. I am sticking to it. Call me a religious wacko but that's ok with me.

 

[Steerpike]

For us to breathe and walk and decide and be so much better than the animals plus the order of the universe IS proof. This stuff cannot happen by mere chance. I am sticking to it. Call me a religious wacko but that's ok with me.

I don't think you're a wacko.

It isn't Proof. It is Belief.

A lot of people share it.

I don't see any reason to conflate the two, is all.

 

[sky dancer]

Any time the 'people like you' phrase is used it derails the discussion. Just my opinion.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I don't think you're a wacko.

It isn't Proof. It is Belief.

A lot of people share it.

I don't see any reason to conflate the two, is all.

Well proof to me is something totally different to you. That's fine. even proof can still be argued against.

 

[sky dancer]

Well proof to me is something totally different to you. That's fine. even proof can still be argued against.

Proof is in the pudding. It means proof (or truth) is in the tasting (or experience).

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Well proof to me is something totally different to you. That's fine. even proof can still be argued against.

Yes, proof to you is whatever you can use to substantiate your dogmatically held beliefs. By saying science can't prove God doesn't exist doesn't mean he (or her or it) exists. Your extremely limited view, and humankind's by nature extremely limited view, of the Universe and how it "seemingly" makes sense hardly means or "proves" that God exists.

But, by clinging to that belief despite in reality there being no way to either prove or disprove that God exists, and claiming that your beliefs are true and that all others' beliefs that in anyway contradict yours are wrong, and, therefore, have less right than you to live their lives the way they believe is best for them, and then acting on your beliefs to force what you believe on other people so that they have to live their lives the way you believe is best is called oppression.

No matter how many times, though, someone who dogmatically believes something is told or shown something that doesn't agree totally with what that person believes dogmatically, that which contradicts or doesn't fit is ignored or somehow, irrationally, invalidated.

I don't care what someone believes until that belief is that I have to live the way someone else thinks I should or their belief harms me. My uncle has been with his life partner for 15 years and if one of them gets ill or injured, the other can't make decisions for him or visit him in the hospital. They can't share insurance policies. They don't get the tax benefits of married couples. They have less ability to seek legal remedy to situations they may encounter. They have less rights. They can't do what another class of citizens do: making them 2nd class citizens. My uncles don't CHOOSE to be gay. Neither do my gay friends. Just like I don't CHOOSE to be straight: I just am.

People are different than you and maybe, just maybe, despite everything you want or everything you believe, your god might not exist the way you believe he does - he might not exist at all. But, if you want to believe, that's up to you. Just don't make anyone else live by your beliefs because you don't know what's best for anyone but yourself.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

For us to breathe and walk and decide and be so much better than the animals plus the order of the universe IS proof. This stuff cannot happen by mere chance. I am sticking to it. Call me a religious wacko but that's ok with me.

Although you may think its wacko yourself, it is a matter of opinion that human beings are "better" than animals. I think we are equal to all other things in the Universe, neither better nor worse.

Just because you can't accept that everything is mere chance doesn't mean it isn't. It doesn't mean it is, but I can say that I don't know. I don't NEED there to be some higher power than myself that is some supernatural being.

A power higher than myself is my love with my girlfriend. And higher than that is my circle of friends and family. And higher than that is... I don't know. Maybe nothing. But you don't have to live like there's no God. I don't mind. I won't force my beliefs on to you and I could only wish that you would bestow that same grace onto others.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Homosexuality is not part of that plan. god did not create them to pervert their hormones. There is no proof that people were born this way because there is none. The proof is in the parts they were born with. The perversion can come from exposure and experimenting and brainwashing by molesters at a young age and many other factors but children as they are born are not sexually inclined. They don't even think about it. It is all conditioning.

This kind of ignorance is why you shouldn't be allowed to vote. You are willing to oppress people is why you shouldn't be allowed to vote. Do you know anything about homosexuality at all? Have you ever studied human sexuality? Where did you get your so-called "facts"? Can you cite your research here?

Do you know any gay people? Because I know many. And they all say the same thing: they didn't choose to be gay. And none of them, that I know of, has ever claimed they were molested and that's why they're gay. The say they're gay, always have been, and that they just are. That's proof enough for me.

It might not be scientifically researched and proven, but these people are normal human beings and they tell me something and I have no reason not to trust them. Who knows better than they do? Do you? I didn't choose to be straight, I always have been, and I just am. I was exposed to sex at an early age, too young by far, and I was abused as a child and I'm not gay. If anything I might have become a stripper, but not gay Why the hell would anyone want to be gay?

Let's just say that homsexuals do have a mental illness of some kind. Let's say people aren't born gay. Ok. So somehow they just turn out that way! Try to cure it! Go ahead and see how that turns out. So, if they don't choose to be that way, and yet, they are gay, then still they shouldn't be allowed to express who they've become/are? They shouldn't be allowed to marry the person they love? I though Christ was all about loving eachother. People get married in every culture, its pretty universal. Most human beings need the security and stability of marriage. Why not allow human beings to marry? Just because they love and are sexually attracted to their own gender? What is that going to do to anyone but them? Is it going to ruin your marriage? Are your kids gonna be gay? I've never heard of gay marriage making people turn gay. Oh, that's because there's no such thing! But wait, there are still gay people in the world!

What would you do if one of your children was homosexual? Or a sibling? Or a friend or family member? You wouldn' let them marry? You wouldn't invite them to Thanksgiving or Christmas or birthdays? You wouldn't accept them? That doesn't sound very Christian to me.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Proof is in the pudding. It means proof (or truth) is in the tasting (or experience).

I couldn't have said it better myself. Hoever some people don't like the taste of truth so they spit it out and say negative things about it.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Yes, proof to you is whatever you can use to substantiate your dogmatically held beliefs. By saying science can't prove God doesn't exist doesn't mean he (or her or it) exists. Your extremely limited view, and humankind's by nature extremely limited view, of the Universe and how it "seemingly" makes sense hardly means or "proves" that God exists.

But, by clinging to that belief despite in reality there being no way to either prove or disprove that God exists, and claiming that your beliefs are true and that all others' beliefs that in anyway contradict yours are wrong, and, therefore, have less right than you to live their lives the way they believe is best for them, and then acting on your beliefs to force what you believe on other people so that they have to live their lives the way you believe is best is called oppression.

No matter how many times, though, someone who dogmatically believes something is told or shown something that doesn't agree totally with what that person believes dogmatically, that which contradicts or doesn't fit is ignored or somehow, irrationally, invalidated.

I don't care what someone believes until that belief is that I have to live the way someone else thinks I should or their belief harms me. My uncle has been with his life partner for 15 years and if one of them gets ill or injured, the other can't make decisions for him or visit him in the hospital. They can't share insurance policies. They don't get the tax benefits of married couples. They have less ability to seek legal remedy to situations they may encounter. They have less rights. They can't do what another class of citizens do: making them 2nd class citizens. My uncles don't CHOOSE to be gay. Neither do my gay friends. Just like I don't CHOOSE to be straight: I just am.

People are different than you and maybe, just maybe, despite everything you want or everything you believe, your god might not exist the way you believe he does - he might not exist at all. But, if you want to believe, that's up to you. Just don't make anyone else live by your beliefs because you don't know what's best for anyone but yourself.

You sure like that word dogmaogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization, thought to be authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from.

It's not so bad except for the part where it is not to be disputed. I have disputed the way you did about 10 years ago but something happened inside of me to change that opinions and the world all of a sudden seemed to make sense. The more I thought about it, the more I started to agree with albert einstein who's not exactly a turnip truck frequenter.
"I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
Just because you question something doesn't mean you assume it isn't rue.
I live in california man, san francisco actually. I know a thing or two about what has been going on here. domestic partnerships have all the benefits, just not the word.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Although you may think its wacko yourself, it is a matter of opinion that human beings are "better" than animals. I think we are equal to all other things in the Universe, neither better nor worse.

Just because you can't accept that everything is mere chance doesn't mean it isn't. It doesn't mean it is, but I can say that I don't know. I don't NEED there to be some higher power than myself that is some supernatural being.

A power higher than myself is my love with my girlfriend. And higher than that is my circle of friends and family. And higher than that is... I don't know. Maybe nothing. But you don't have to live like there's no God. I don't mind. I won't force my beliefs on to you and I could only wish that you would bestow that same grace onto others.

Well spoken. Contrary to what you may think, I do allow others their beliefs and opinions. I would fight in a war for you to be able to think the way you do. That's is why our country is great. The last thing I would do is force my beliefs on you. But if I am allowed to vote on an issue concerning morality, I am going to vote according to my ethical code. If my side loses, I would still be able to go on with my life, but I must stand for what I believe in. Don't take it personally as an attack on you or your gay associates.
That is just what happens when things are up for popular vote.

 

[Truthspeaker]

This kind of ignorance is why you shouldn't be allowed to vote. You are willing to oppress people is why you shouldn't be allowed to vote. Do you know anything about homosexuality at all? Have you ever studied human sexuality? Where did you get your so-called "facts"? Can you cite your research here?

Do you know any gay people? Because I know many. And they all say the same thing: they didn't choose to be gay. And none of them, that I know of, has ever claimed they were molested and that's why they're gay. The say they're gay, always have been, and that they just are. That's proof enough for me.

It might not be scientifically researched and proven, but these people are normal human beings and they tell me something and I have no reason not to trust them. Who knows better than they do? Do you? I didn't choose to be straight, I always have been, and I just am. I was exposed to sex at an early age, too young by far, and I was abused as a child and I'm not gay. If anything I might have become a stripper, but not gay Why the hell would anyone want to be gay?

Let's just say that homsexuals do have a mental illness of some kind. Let's say people aren't born gay. Ok. So somehow they just turn out that way! Try to cure it! Go ahead and see how that turns out. So, if they don't choose to be that way, and yet, they are gay, then still they shouldn't be allowed to express who they've become/are? They shouldn't be allowed to marry the person they love? I though Christ was all about loving eachother. People get married in every culture, its pretty universal. Most human beings need the security and stability of marriage. Why not allow human beings to marry? Just because they love and are sexually attracted to their own gender? What is that going to do to anyone but them? Is it going to ruin your marriage? Are your kids gonna be gay? I've never heard of gay marriage making people turn gay. Oh, that's because there's no such thing! But wait, there are still gay people in the world!

What would you do if one of your children was homosexual? Or a sibling? Or a friend or family member? You wouldn' let them marry? You wouldn't invite them to Thanksgiving or Christmas or birthdays? You wouldn't accept them? That doesn't sound very Christian to me.

If I didn't know spiritually that God exists I would probably agree with you 100%
It is my perspective that changes everything. I know things by reasons and methods I can't explain because they are understood spiritually. Living in San Francisco and having friends, colleagues, business associates that are gay has also given me a unique perspective as a religious man. I am friendly and cordial to everyone.
If a member of my family struggled with the issue, I would still treat him as a member of the family and not ostracize them. I would not invite their partner to thanksgiving dinner but the family member would certainly be invited and he wouldn't want to bring his partner into our environment anyway knowing that we disapprove of their relationship. I believe people can overcome the temptation entirely through Christ as many have done before.
My explanation of why many homosexuals form the way they do is because I had a friend who told me how it happened to him. That is the honest truth. I hope we can agree to pleasantly disagree with each other.

 

[Truthspeaker]

But by the way, we simply are better than animals. We have cooler personalities. Some individuals are worse than animals though.

 

[Steerpike]

Proof is in the pudding. It means proof (or truth) is in the tasting (or experience).

That is not what the phrase means. It is a shortened version of "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

The proof is in the pudding means that aside from looks, aesthetics, or other appeal, the proof of something comes when you put it to the test (i.e. the 'test' for pudding is to eat it and see if it is actually any good).

Despite what Truthspeaker says, "proof" isn't subjective. A "proof" is demonstrable. Religious views by their nature don't really lend themselves to proofs. Rather, they are beliefs. For some reason, religious people get insecure about that. I'm not sure why.

 

[Steerpike]

If I didn't know spiritually that God exists I would probably agree with you 100%
It is my perspective that changes everything. I know things by reasons and methods I can't explain because they are understood spiritually.

And that is exactly the way in which you are SUPPOSED to have religious knowledge. Nothing wrong with it. So why argue with people about "proofs?"

 

[KittenKoder]

Despite what Truthspeaker says, "proof" isn't subjective. A "proof" is demonstrable. Religious views by their nature don't really lend themselves to proofs. Rather, they are beliefs. For some reason, religious people get insecure about that. I'm not sure why.

The ones that get insecure doubt their own beliefs. They have to have as many agree with, and force as many to live by, those beliefs so they can justify to themselves "well, everyone else believes it to so it must be fact." It's a lack of belief in their own believes that makes them insecure, and thus why they have to force people to live by their beliefs so much. Even when their own religion states that it's not right to do so.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Well spoken. Contrary to what you may think, I do allow others their beliefs and opinions. I would fight in a war for you to be able to think the way you do. That's is why our country is great. The last thing I would do is force my beliefs on you. But if I am allowed to vote on an issue concerning morality, I am going to vote according to my ethical code. If my side loses, I would still be able to go on with my life, but I must stand for what I believe in. Don't take it personally as an attack on you or your gay associates.
That is just what happens when things are up for popular vote.

So let me just see if I understand you correctly: you think homosexuality is a temptation wrought by Satan. So, morally, for you, homosexuality is wrong. And you allow no doubt about this issue. There is no way that you might be wrong. You're a patriot and you believe in freedom and are against oppression. Oppression is immoral. That's why you vote and love your country: the land of the free. Yet still you'll endorse a law that makes 2nd class citizens of a group of people who are not guilty of causing harm to others thereby oppressing them. How do you reconcile that contradiction in morality?

And although you might not mean it as a personal attack on my freedoms and the freedoms of my gay associates, it still is an attack on freedom.

This is what the forefathers meant by mob rule and why they tried to set up a system of representative and democratic government that avoided mob rule: so that one group of people couldn't oppress a different group of people.

 

[Cecilie1200]

But by the way, we simply are better than animals. We have cooler personalities. Some individuals are worse than animals though.

I don't even know that it's so much a matter of "better". It just seems painfully obvious to me that, as humans, other members of our own species ought to be more important to us than those of other species. Not that I'm not more emotionally attached to certain animals than I am to humans - like all pet owners, I love the dog and cats that share my home and life very much - but when it comes right down to it, other humans have to be of more value to me than an animal.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I don't even know that it's so much a matter of "better". It just seems painfully obvious to me that, as humans, other members of our own species ought to be more important to us than those of other species. Not that I'm not more emotionally attached to certain animals than I am to humans - like all pet owners, I love the dog and cats that share my home and life very much - but when it comes right down to it, other humans have to be of more value to me than an animal.

What "seems painfully obvious" to you doesn't mean that its true. What makes human beings so special that they deserve better treatment than animals? From an atheistic-agnostic point of view, humans are no more important nor better than anything else in the Universe including microscopic specks of dust. However, from a living sentient organism's point of view, life is better than non-life or death. And from my point of view, everything living is equal; though I would choose my pets' lives over that of a stranger's. From a humanist point of view, all human beings are equal no matter what.

We can't know what someone else's experiences are nor the forces which shaped that person. We can't understand everything that causes a person to make the decisions he or she makes. All we can do is accept that that person is him or her because they have been shaped that way, and that they made those decisions. That doesn't mean we shouldn't protect ourselves from those who try to harm us, it just means that something happened to that person to persuade them to make the decisions they did or to shape them the way they've been shaped.

From a Christian point of view only Christians of the same caliber and sect are equal: Christians think non-Christians will burn forever, Baptists believe that non-baptists will burn forever, Mormons think non-Mormons will live in an outer circle of heaven, 7th Day Adventists believe anyone who isn't 7th Day Adventist will burn forever. Not a very humane perspective, from my point of view. Although I am generalizing it has been my experience that many Christians won't tolerate someone who believes something different i.e. Truthspeaks not inviting his gay family member's lover over for Thanksgiving dinner. And do Christians believe that homosexuals will burn forever? I thought Jesus taught acceptance of others and tolerance for those who are different. Isn't the Christian God merciful, forgiving, and loving of his creations? Why then do so many who believe in him hate and discriminate?

From my point of view, dogmatically held beliefs are hurtful to others and wrap those who cling to them in blind ignorance. This is the problem I have with religion. It divides people. It harms them as much or more than it comforts them.

 

[Truthspeaker]

And that is exactly the way in which you are SUPPOSED to have religious knowledge. Nothing wrong with it. So why argue with people about "proofs?"

What some call belief, I call a knowledge. It won't be proven physically until we all reach the other side. That has been my argument all along. If I am allowed to vote on something I know spiritually to be true, I am going to vote for it and just because some people don't like it doesn't mean we should change the government. I never revolted against the government or called for a repeal of democracy because a measure I voted for lost.

there still is no better way than the voice of the people.