Private Morality

[PoliticalChic]

Why would anyone....ever.....get back to you???

Well, your right. After you've had your life turned upside down fighting with an insurance company AFTER you had paid the premiums, you probably wouldn't get back to me. You'd probably sheepishly just stop talking smack.

I could accept your whining about your life until you started lying.

We're done.

 

[JoeB131]

I could accept your whining about your life until you started lying.

We're done.

I've been very clear on what happened and how it cured me of Republican Stupidity.

I wish it had done as good a job on my knee.

 

[jillian]

the logical fallacy in the o/p is the implication that there are only two extremes, pretending you have no morality absent the bible, and some marxian a-religious philosophy.

the reality is that one doesn't need the bible to be moral. and, frankly, i have seen some pretty immoral spew from some of the most self-styled religious types on this board and in real life.

just saying.

Covered earlier.

Read more than the first panel when you have time.

The basic premise was false. Life's too short.

 

[jillian]

Why would anyone....ever.....get back to you???

Well, your right. After you've had your life turned upside down fighting with an insurance company AFTER you had paid the premiums, you probably wouldn't get back to me. You'd probably sheepishly just stop talking smack.

I could accept your whining about your life until you started lying.

We're done.

Interesting that you would accuse him of lying.

You live in a bubble

 

[PoliticalChic]

the logical fallacy in the o/p is the implication that there are only two extremes, pretending you have no morality absent the bible, and some marxian a-religious philosophy.

the reality is that one doesn't need the bible to be moral. and, frankly, i have seen some pretty immoral spew from some of the most self-styled religious types on this board and in real life.

just saying.

Covered earlier.

Read more than the first panel when you have time.

The basic premise was false. Life's too short.

Why is it, then, that you were able to show that it is false?
You weren't even able to show that you know what the "basic premise" is.

Seems to be a regular thing with Liberals: they are regularly reduced to "is not, is not."

 

[PoliticalChic]

Why would anyone....ever.....get back to you???

Well, your right. After you've had your life turned upside down fighting with an insurance company AFTER you had paid the premiums, you probably wouldn't get back to me. You'd probably sheepishly just stop talking smack.

I could accept your whining about your life until you started lying.

We're done.

Interesting that you would accuse him of lying.

You live in a bubble

He was.

I don't.

 

[PoliticalChic]

You are totally clueless about the fascistic nature of Islamism. Your dogma requires you to acknowledge that Moslems are superior to infidels purely for the fact that they are Moslems. There is a word for that. It is called fascism.

In Islam, one who pleases God Almighty is far superior than one who displeases God Almighty. A fascist like Hitler is someone who belives his race is superior to other races. In Islam, all human beings are born pure.

We need to understand that Moslems blame their every pratfall, ineptitude and self-inflicted calamity on Western interference and hostility to Islam. Western ascendency is an injurious point of humiliation to the Muslim psyche and is probably equal to the 800 year-old grudge of Europe's defensive Crusades as inspiration for Islam's hatred of the West and of the hated non-Moslems (outside of the Koran and sunnah).

In Islam, we believe we should have the upper hand, because God Almighty has the upper hand at all times and we try to be by His side. If we don't have the upper hand, we feel we failed to stick to God Almighty.

But Islam does have the upper hand. It's not the wealth or the military power (and Israel is a great military power) that makes the superiority. When God wants to destroy you, He only needs to say "be" and it will be. Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) faced great hostility when he said "I am a prophet". Not only him but all those who believed in him faced the same. Today, Islam is the fastest growing religion, the second religion by the number of its adepts (about 1.2 billion I believe), Indonesia and Pakistan are completely Muslim populated countries and make for almost 1 billion people, Palestine is getting credit litlle by litlle with countries like Sweden, France, and one South American country recognizing it, Jalal Al Din Rumi is probably the greatest mystic poet in the history of mankind and is widely read in the West, Arabs are becoming prosperous little by little with rich countries like Saudi Arabia, Qatar or the United Arab Emirates (and people generally earn more there than in the US or China or Japan), and the Arab people represent a goodly body in this planet living in areas of choice in the Middle east and North Africa. So Islam does have the upper hand.

1924 was a watershed as it marked the inevitable clash of Islam's unreformed seventh century doctrine and the modern, civilized world led by the West. It was the catalyst of the more modern jihad revival which has been gathering momentum and strength ever since. The Muslim Brotherhood was established in response to the end of the Caliphate, and the now thankfully dead Osama bin Laden, et al. have whined about the humiliation and suffering of Moslems in the 80 years since, and have used this date to help justify the mass murder of non-Moslems in their rambling jihad screeds.

The end of the Ottoman empire was a heavenly matter. God Almighty wanted Sultan (Imam Mahdi) to take over. That is why Sultan has been here on earth as the king of mankind, owning the land and the people for almost 150 years.

If you had any true spiritual knowledge it would be evident that this practice is barbaric, and unacceptable to any rational human being.

What is barbaric is billions of Christians the world over saying that Jesus said that the Almighty God had a son; while Jesus would abhorre to say such a thing, which, in Islam is considered an absurdity. You keep saying this and Jesus the prophet keeps saying nothing, and you keep saying this. Saying that this is barbarism would be a strong euphemism.

1. "Muhammad was at war againts Jews and pagans."
Every call to murder in the Koran is still in effect.
Today.
a. "These are not verses for me or you or human beings in general."

The verses of the Qur'an apply for all ages, they don't change. But what the verse means in terms of obligations and forbiddens depend on the context, the time and the age. It is forbidden in Islam to read the Qur'an or the Hadiths and to understand them as you read them. No. There are saints of Islam who come on earth at every century. They are the ones who are supposed to tell the Muslims how to understand a specific verse according to the time being and the context; because they are in touch with God Almighty and His prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family), and the saints of Islam before them and the saints of Islam after them. But the overwhelming majority and the almost totality of Muslims don't like to listen to them.

It's interesting, you sound like most Muslims when you tell me that the verses you mentioned are for all human beings. Again, those were verses for Muhammad only (peace be upon him and his family). He was the king of the Muslim Nation and he was at war; so these verses came to tell him how to fight.

2. Jews had lived in Iraq for some 2600 years, but the origin of this mass Muslim movement was in 627. At that time, Mohammed, defending Medina, judged the Jewish tribe to be guilty of aiding the Meccan attackers, and oversaw such acts as the beheading of 900 captives of the Banu Qurayzah tribe, he watched the bodies thrown into a pit.(… in his 1895 biography of Muhammad ("Mahomet and Islam", London, 1895, p. 151), which relied entirely on the original Muslim sources, the scholar Sir William Muir observed:

"The massacre of the Banu Coreiza was a barbarous deed which cannot be justified by any reason of political necessity the indiscriminate slaughter of the whole tribe cannot be recognized otherwise than as an act of monstrous cruelty?")
http://www.andrewbostom.org/loj//content/view/38/27/

I perfectly understand this sentence to mass execution. All the males of that Jewish tribe were put to death. It was because they made a pact with Muhammad, and at the worst moment possible, they retracted and betrayed him, so that Islam fell into a grave danger because of them. Was it not for the military genius of Salman, Islam would have been wiped out from the earth. So this sentence was decided by Sad, that all the males of this Jewish tribe should be killed, and so they were executed by Ali. Know that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) married one woman from that tribe, Safiyya. She is known as the Mother of the Believers (like all wives of Muhammad) and is considered in Islam a perfect, holy and heavenly woman.

a. The extermination of the Jews of Medina represents the iconic moment in Islam, just as the Sermon on the Mount is the iconic moment of Christianity, or the parting of the Red Sea is for the Jews.
Edwin Black, “ The Farhud: The Roots of the Arab-Nazi Alliance in the Holocaust.”

The primordial moment in Islam was the battle of Badr, 15 or 16 years after Muhammad received the first revelation. 313 Muslims were face to face with 1000 unbelievers. Islam was going to be wiped out once and for all. But the Muslims advanced, they walked over dead bodies. God Almighty had helped Muhammad with thousands of angels, among whom Gabriel (peace on him). That is the victory of Islam that Muslims cherish up to this day in 2014.

b. “Our hatred for the Jews dates from God's condemnation of them for their persecution and rejection of Isa (Jesus) and their subsequent rejection of His chosen Prophet." He added "that for a Muslim to kill a Jew, or for him to be killed by a Jew ensures him an immediate entry into Heaven and into the august presence of God Almighty." November 23, 1937, Saudi Arabia's King Ibn Saud told British Colonel H.R.P. Dickson. Official British document, Foreign Office File No. 371/20822 E 7201/22/31; Elie Kedourie, Islam in the Modern World, (London: Mansell, 1980), pp. 69-72.

What does it matter what the king of Saudi Arabia says ? Everyone is free to say what he thinks, it does not make it true.

see that two of the great religions have reformed, and moved away from acceptance of the quotes you post...

A great religion is not one that says about someone as respectworthy as Jesus that he said things he never said, namely that the Almighty god had a son. Fear Jesus, and fear all prophets, they do take action all the time against anyone who offends them or their Lord Almighty.

A great religion does not say about the the most truthful of men, known even before he received revelation as the truthful and the trutworthy, that he is a liar, when he received the word of God Almighty as a revelation to his heart, through the intermediary of Gabriel. The Muslims today sing this revelation of God to the heart of Muhammad, the Muslims today and at all ages since the 7th century have been singing the Holy Qur'an.

...yet one great religion continues to build a bridge to the seventh century and advances barbarism.....

Barbarism is to ignore the words of the Lord who created you out of nothing and loves you. By "words of the Lord", I mean the Qur'an.

Even if only a small portion of Muslims accept the homicidal demands of the religion, and it is a sizable number, even 1% is over 15 million savages.

It's not surprising that they do so. There is nothing more natural than to cheat the divine message and to steal from and take advantage of the endless treasures of Islam.

I've talked with a lot of muslims who change the binding of Issac to the binding of Ishmael...Go figure

In Islam it is believed that the Bible is not authentic, and that also it is a book full of man-made intentional forgeries and falsifications. The story of the sacrifice involved Ishmael, not Isaac.[/QUOTE]




"It's interesting, you sound like most Muslims when you tell me that the verses you mentioned are for all human beings. Again, those were verses for Muhammad only (peace be upon him and his family). He was the king of the Muslim Nation and he was at war; so these verses came to tell him how to fight."

So the story you're stickin' to is that verses of the Q'ran are not instructions for all Muslims.

And these apply only to Muhammad?

Quran 4:89: "They (infidels) desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper."

Quran 8:12: "Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers;"

Quran 2:191: "... kill the disbelievers wherever we find them

Quran 22:19-22: "… for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods."

Quran 8:12: "Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: 'I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.'"

Qur'an:8:12 "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."

Quran 8:7: "Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: 'Wipe the infidels out to the last.'"

Quran 8:59: "The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah's enemy."

Quran 8:60: "Prepare against them whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah, and others besides them not known to you."

Quran 9.29" "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."

Quran 47:4: "Strike off the heads of the disbelievers" and, after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives."

Hadith Sahih Muslim (41:6985): "Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: 'The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.'"

Quran 9:5: "When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."



How, then, do you explain this:

"One of the means through which Allah has assured the protection of the Holy Quran is the fact that He made the memorization of His Book an easy task for the believers. In fact, the Holy Quran is the only religious Scripture that is memorized by its followers."
MEMORIZATION OF HOLY QURAN - IslamCan.com


So....Muslims must memorize the instructions meant only for Muhammad?

Really?

 

[OZman]

Time and again I see the posts of the rabid and the indoctrinated....you...yet I am still amazed that there are morons who can look at the world, see that two of the great religions have reformed, and moved away from acceptance of the quotes you post...

...yet one great religion continues to build a bridge to the seventh century and advances barbarism.....

...yet you squeeze your eyes shut and deny same.


Even if only a small portion of Muslims accept the homicidal demands of the religion, and it is a sizable number, even 1% is over 15 million savages.

What don't you like your Jewish scripture! Of course the quoted text is not practiced anymore because normal decent people would not tolerate such barbarism. The whole foundation of the Abrahamic religions comes from the same root, fear and intimidation.

As for me being rabid and indoctrinated, well I think not, as I have never accepted Jewish or Islamic scripture as anything other than fabricated nonsensical rubbish.

As for denying what radical Moslems are up to, you are jumping to conclusions. I in no way support religious zealots of any persuation.

 

[OZman]

What is barbaric is billions of Christians the world over saying that Jesus said that the Almighty God had a son; while Jesus would abhorre to say such a thing, which, in Islam is considered an absurdity. You keep saying this and Jesus the prophet keeps saying nothing, and you keep saying this. Saying that this is barbarism would be a strong euphemism.

As anticipated you completely evaded the proposition I put to you. What christians believe is irrelevant, the issue was the practice of retribution for apostasy in Islam. True spiritual advancement does not come from the persecution of your fellow human beings. I would suggest you seek out a more spiritually advanced Imam than the one you now follow.

 

[JoeB131]

He was.

I don't.

Tell us all about that great job in the private sector you had, then.

 

[Muslim75]

As anticipated you completely evaded the proposition I put to you. What christians believe is irrelevant, the issue was the practice of retribution for apostasy in Islam. True spiritual advancement does not come from the persecution of your fellow human beings. I would suggest you seek out a more spiritually advanced Imam than the one you now follow.

Do refrain from giving me any advice on spirituality. From what I read from you, I don't think you are fit to advise anyone on spirituality.

I perfectly replied to your post, if there was any serious content.

 

[OZman]

Do refrain from giving me any advice on spirituality. From what I read from you, I don't think you are fit to advise anyone on spirituality.

From what I read from you, it seems you are nothing but an advocate for murder, hardly spiritual.

 

[Muslim75]

Hadith Sahih Muslim (41:6985): "Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: 'The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.'"

This is one of the sayings of Muhammad (peace be upon him). But Muhammad also said: "speak to the people according to what they understand." So he said this in order to inform the 7th century people of affairs pertaining to the last times, the 20th-21st and maybe 22nd centuries; and also to inform Muslims of today whose understanding of Islam is still a bit superficial. By superficial I mean not complete.

This does not mean Muslims will kill Jews. It meant Islam would be victorious. And today Islam is victorious by far.

How, then, do you explain this:

"One of the means through which Allah has assured the protection of the Holy Quran is the fact that He made the memorization of His Book an easy task for the believers. In fact, the Holy Quran is the only religious Scripture that is memorized by its followers."
MEMORIZATION OF HOLY QURAN - IslamCan.com

Again anyone can put what he likes on his own website. But this quote is incorrect. This is not how the Qur'an has been protected and kept authentic. But I don't think there is any need in this discussion to adress that topic.

So....Muslims must memorize the instructions meant only for Muhammad?

Muslims are not required to memorize the Qur'an. It is required that there be at least some people in the community to memorize the Qur'an, but not all. However Muslims have been memorizing the Qur'an and did not cease to sing this marvelous book from the 7th century till today. And it is a source of pride. I don't think any Muslim will agree to forget one chapter of the Qur'an he memorized in exchange for a billion dollars.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Hadith Sahih Muslim (41:6985): "Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: 'The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.'"

This is one of the sayings of Muhammad (peace be upon him). But Muhammad also said: "speak to the people according to what they understand." So he said this in order to inform the 7th century people of affairs pertaining to the last times, the 20th-21st and maybe 22nd centuries; and also to inform Muslims of today whose understanding of Islam is still a bit superficial. By superficial I mean not complete.

This does not mean Muslims will kill Jews. It meant Islam would be victorious. And today Islam is victorious by far.

How, then, do you explain this:

"One of the means through which Allah has assured the protection of the Holy Quran is the fact that He made the memorization of His Book an easy task for the believers. In fact, the Holy Quran is the only religious Scripture that is memorized by its followers."
MEMORIZATION OF HOLY QURAN - IslamCan.com

Again anyone can put what he likes on his own website. But this quote is incorrect. This is not how the Qur'an has been protected and kept authentic. But I don't think there is any need in this discussion to adress that topic.

So....Muslims must memorize the instructions meant only for Muhammad?

Muslims are not required to memorize the Qur'an. It is required that there be at least some people in the community to memorize the Qur'an, but not all. However Muslims have been memorizing the Qur'an and did not cease to sing this marvelous book from the 7th century till today. And it is a source of pride. I don't think any Muslim will agree to forget one chapter of the Qur'an he memorized in exchange for a billion dollars.

Who do you think you're kiddin'?


Your lies actually gave me the idea for a new thread: "The Problem is Muslims."
You won't like it.

 

[Unkotare]

In point of fact there is no good or evil. ...

That is not a "point of fact," herbert.

 

[Unkotare]

And today Islam is victorious by far.
...

How so?