Zone1 Praying to the Saints

[there4eyeM]

What the Early Church Believed: The Intercession of the Saints

What the Early Church Believed: The Intercession of the Saints

Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice praying to saints. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

www.catholic.com

Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!”

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, because “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).

As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.

Hermas​

“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria​

“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen​

“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cyprian of Carthage​

“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

Anonymous​

“Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins” (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).
“Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days” (ibid.).
“Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger” (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).

Methodius​

“Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. . . . Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).
“Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid.).
“And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’” (ibid.).

Cyril of Jerusalem​

“Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition” (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Hilary of Poitiers​

“To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting” (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).

Ephraim the Syrian​

“You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him” (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).
“Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day” (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).

The Liturgy of St. Basil​

“By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name” (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

Pectorius​

“Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]” (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).

Gregory of Nazianz​

“May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand” (Orations 17[24] [A.D. 380]).
“Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind” (ibid., 18:4).

Gregory of Nyssa​

“[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom” (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

John Chrysostom​

“He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead” (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).
“When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]” (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).

Ambrose of Milan​

“May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance” (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).

Jerome​

“You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

Augustine​

“A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers” (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).
“At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps” (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).
“Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ” (The City of God 202 [A.D. 419]).

Jesus stated clearly how to pray.

 

[there4eyeM]

How insulting. Praying to trees?

Some are too easily insulted.
And, praying to the dead?

 

[Votar Roja]

Jesus stated clearly how to pray.

Apparently not clearly enough for you.

1 Timothy 2: "1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior"


Do you understand what intercessions are? They are prayers for each other, Christians praying FOR each other. They are pleasing to God.

Thats what this thread is all about.

 

[there4eyeM]

Apparently not clearly enough for you.

1 Timothy 2: "1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior"


Do you understand what intercessions are? They are prayers for each other, Christians praying FOR each other. They are pleasing to God.

Thats what this thread is all about.

The referenced post stated that Jesus instructed how to pray. Timothy's thoughts on the matter have debatable significance in the context.
The principle of Christianity is that Jesus is the sole/soul intercessor and the only one who could be.

 

[there4eyeM]

Some are too easily insulted.
And, praying to the dead?

Trees are alive, at least.

 

[Votar Roja]

Back to the thread topic: Praying to the Saints
which is better described as, asking the Saints to Pray for Us

QUOTE

Obviously this topic is not of much interest to non-Christians, but it is a big debate between, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox on one side, and protestants on the other.

The premise is very simple: If I can ask a fellow Christian on earth to pray for me, then I can also ask a fellow Christian in heaven to pray for me.

Its really just as simple as that.

How to Defend the Intercession of the Saints

Popular Catholic speaker Jason Evert answers the most common objections to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints in heaven. Click here.

www.catholic.com

The Bible Supports Praying to the Saints

Most "Bible-believing" Christians object to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints. Here is how to respond to the most common objections.

www.catholic.com

How to Defend the Intercession of the Saints

Popular Catholic speaker Jason Evert answers the most common objections to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints in heaven. Click here.

www.catholic.com

Why do Catholics pray to Mary and the Saints?​

Can the Saints in Heaven See What We Do On Earth?​

 

[OneIsTheWord]

So in other words nothing you can witness.

Why is it important

 

[ding]

When you start a post like that you are only asking for conflict.

That's odd because in this case I didn't get any from the person I was actually discussing prayer with.

 

[ding]

Why is it important
View attachment 847478​

 

[Votar Roja]

The Saints are not in heaven, they are on earth

Wrong.

“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Matthew 22:32). Hence, the saints in heaven are not dead, but alive. They love us—as we are called to love them, because we are all part of God's family in Christ Jesus.

We don’t worship the saints. We honor them as heroes in the Faith who have gone before us (We also honor Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King, Jr. for the pivotal role they played in our own country.) The honor given to the saints does not compete with God’s glory—rather, it manifests it. By honoring the saints, we ultimately honor the great work God has done in their lives. We honor God for his natural creation, such as a mountain, ocean, or sunset. Should we not also honor God for his supernatural creation? In honoring the saints, we praise God for making holy people out of fallen human beings like you and I.

We honor the saints and ask them to pray for us. Similarly, we ask anybody who believes in God to pray for us. Anybody connected to the vine (i.e., Jesus) is connected to one another (John 15:1-5). For: “He is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Matthew 22:32).
In Hebrews 11, we have the Old Testament hall of fame, of sorts. This chapter recounts the great heroes of faith from Noah, Abraham, Moses, Rahab (see Hebrews 11:7-31), to the Maccabean martyrs (Hebrews 11:35), Jeremiah, who—according to Jewish tradition—was stoned to death), and Isaiah, who—according to Jewish tradition—was sawn in two (see Hebrews 11:37).

Immediately after recounting these heroic examples of faith and martyrdom, the author writes:

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us” (Hebrews 12:1).

The word for “witness” here in Greek is martus (i.e., “martyr”); in other words, the author is here saying that the martyrs—in this case the Old Testament saints who have gone before us—surround us since we are in the New Covenant. It’s as if we’re playing a home game: the saints surround us and cheer us on—because they are invested in God’s continued work on earth.

“You have come to Mount Zion and the to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant” (Hebrews 12:22-24).

United in Christ​

Notice that the New Covenant family of God—the Church—encompasses angels and spirits of just men made perfect (i.e., the saints who have gone before us). Death does not sever our bonds in the New Covenant.

The reference here to “spirits of just men made perfect” points initially back to the Old Testament heroes of Hebrews 11, as can be seen by comparison to the end of Hebrews 11:

“And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect” (Hebrews 11:39-40).

These Old Testament saints have been perfected in Christ—that’s why they’re now called “spirits of just men made perfect” (Hebrews 12:23). They are now part of the New Covenant family of God, a family united in Christ—that same family which death does not sever.

 

[Votar Roja]

The Saints’ Concern for Earth​

One objection against the Catholic doctrine of the communion of saints is the suggestion that the saints in heaven are so focused on God that they are oblivious to what’s going on here on earth. But as is apparent here in Hebrews, this is not how the New Testament describes the interaction between the saints of heaven and the wayfarers on earth. For example, in the parable of the Lost Sheep, Jesus speaks of the radical joy in heaven over one sinner that repents (Luke 15:7).

Furthermore, in the parable of the Lost Coin, Jesus speaks of the joy of angels over one sinner turning back to God:

“Just so, I tell you there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents” (Luke 15:10).

Indeed, the eyes of heaven look attentively upon the happenings of earth with eager love and concern.

Prayers of the Saints​

Further, when John sees the vision of the heavenly liturgy, he describes the “prayers of the saints” (Revelation 5:8; 8:3).

In Revelation 6:9-10, the heavenly scene becomes clear—the martyrs are interceding vigorously on behalf of the Church on earth:

“I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” (Revelation 6:9-10).

In this passage, clearly these “souls” are dead—since they are martyrs; and they are clearly pleading and interceding for their brothers and sisters on earth.

Getting Closer to Jesus​

This communion of saints—this union of all those who are in Christ, in heaven and on earth—was tangibly felt by the early Church. The following is an example from the Martyrdom of Polycarp, a manuscript of the Church Fathers on the bishop of Smyrna who died around A.D. 155:

“We worship [Christ] as the Son of God but we appropriately love the martyrs as disciples and imitators of the Lord on account of their unsurpassable affection for their king and teacher. May we become fellow partakers and disciples” (chapter 17).

In the Old Covenant, the earthly imitates the heavenly—for example, the earthly Tabernacle and Temple liturgy imitate their heavenly counterparts (see Exodus 25:9, 40). In the New Covenant, the Church participates in the heavenly reality now (see Hebrews 12:22-24; Revelation 1:10; 4:1-5:14; 19:7). In and through Jesus’ Risen Body, he has united heaven and earth (see Revelation 21:22).

For this reason, it’s never just about “me and Jesus.” It’s always a family affair, which includes all the angels and all the saints. And at the end of the day, the closer we get to the angels and the saints, the closer we get to Jesus.

How can we better appreciate the full reality of salvation in the family of God that Christ has so graciously died to give us?

 

[OneIsTheWord]

View attachment 847562

greetings
everyone is a good baker
meaning that every church leader is like an insurance company selling their pick.
the best churches are from time past
them there are lukewarm christians, always backsliding
Revelation 3:16

 

[OneIsTheWord]

Wrong.

“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Matthew 22:32). Hence, the saints in heaven are not dead, but alive. They love us—as we are called to love them, because we are all part of God's family in Christ Jesus.

We don’t worship the saints. We honor them as heroes in the Faith who have gone before us (We also honor Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King, Jr. for the pivotal role they played in our own country.) The honor given to the saints does not compete with God’s glory—rather, it manifests it. By honoring the saints, we ultimately honor the great work God has done in their lives. We honor God for his natural creation, such as a mountain, ocean, or sunset. Should we not also honor God for his supernatural creation? In honoring the saints, we praise God for making holy people out of fallen human beings like you and I.

We honor the saints and ask them to pray for us. Similarly, we ask anybody who believes in God to pray for us. Anybody connected to the vine (i.e., Jesus) is connected to one another (John 15:1-5). For: “He is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Matthew 22:32).
In Hebrews 11, we have the Old Testament hall of fame, of sorts. This chapter recounts the great heroes of faith from Noah, Abraham, Moses, Rahab (see Hebrews 11:7-31), to the Maccabean martyrs (Hebrews 11:35), Jeremiah, who—according to Jewish tradition—was stoned to death), and Isaiah, who—according to Jewish tradition—was sawn in two (see Hebrews 11:37).

Immediately after recounting these heroic examples of faith and martyrdom, the author writes:


The word for “witness” here in Greek is martus (i.e., “martyr”); in other words, the author is here saying that the martyrs—in this case the Old Testament saints who have gone before us—surround us since we are in the New Covenant. It’s as if we’re playing a home game: the saints surround us and cheer us on—because they are invested in God’s continued work on earth.

United in Christ​

Notice that the New Covenant family of God—the Church—encompasses angels and spirits of just men made perfect (i.e., the saints who have gone before us). Death does not sever our bonds in the New Covenant.

The reference here to “spirits of just men made perfect” points initially back to the Old Testament heroes of Hebrews 11, as can be seen by comparison to the end of Hebrews 11:


These Old Testament saints have been perfected in Christ—that’s why they’re now called “spirits of just men made perfect” (Hebrews 12:23). They are now part of the New Covenant family of God, a family united in Christ—that same family which death does not sever.

if you say so

 

[OneIsTheWord]

remember guys if you are coerced to follow someone, this is a disciple of Satan you are guided under the influence by the spirit of that person, this is called a familiar spirit a demon, not the Holy Spirit
test the Spirit-1 John 4:6.
Lev. 19:31;20:6,27.
Deut 18:9-14.
2 Corin 11:14

 

[ding]

greetings
everyone is a good baker
meaning that every church leader is like an insurance company selling their pick.
the best churches are from time past
them there are lukewarm christians, always backsliding
Revelation 3:16

Luke 4:10-11 and Matthew 4:6

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Obviously this topic is not of much interest to non-Christians, but it is a big debate between, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox on one side, and protestants on the other.

The premise is very simple: If I can ask a fellow Christian on earth to pray for me, then I can also ask a fellow Christian in heaven to pray for me.

Its really just as simple as that.

How to Defend the Intercession of the Saints

Popular Catholic speaker Jason Evert answers the most common objections to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints in heaven. Click here.

www.catholic.com

The Bible Supports Praying to the Saints

Most "Bible-believing" Christians object to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints. Here is how to respond to the most common objections.

www.catholic.com

How to Defend the Intercession of the Saints

Popular Catholic speaker Jason Evert answers the most common objections to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints in heaven. Click here.

www.catholic.com

Why do Catholics pray to Mary and the Saints?​

Can the Saints in Heaven See What We Do On Earth?​

The premise on which praying to saints is based, once it was explained to me, does make a certain amount of sense, and greatly tempts one to believe in it.

However, the Bible is absolutely clear on the point that there is only one intercessor between Mankind and God, and that is Jesus. Praying to saints, asking them to intercede on our behalf with God, would appear to be irreconcilable with Jesus' role as the only intercessor.

 

[Votar Roja]

I say again:

The premise is very simple: If I can ask a fellow Christian on earth to pray for me, then I can also ask a fellow Christian in heaven to pray for me.

Its really just as simple as that.

 

[Votar Roja]

The premise on which praying to saints is based, once it was explained to me, does make a certain amount of sense, and greatly tempts one to believe in it.

However, the Bible is absolutely clear on the point that there is only one intercessor between Mankind and God, and that is Jesus. Praying to saints, asking them to intercede on our behalf with God, would appear to be irreconcilable with Jesus' role as the only intercessor.

Let me ask you this: How do you reconcile these two things, first that there is only one intercessor between Mankind and God, and second that it is okay for me to ask you to pray for me.

I assume you are okay with me asking you to pray for me right? How does that work when there is only one intercessor between Mankind and God?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

However, the Bible is absolutely clear on the point that there is only one intercessor between Mankind and God, and that is Jesus. Praying to saints, asking them to intercede on our behalf with God, would appear to be irreconcilable with Jesus' role as the only intercessor.

Let me ask you this: How do you reconcile these two things, first that there is only one intercessor between Mankind and God, and second that it is okay for me to ask you to pray for me.
I assume you are okay with me asking you to pray for me right? How does that work when there is only one intercessor between Mankind and God?

I'm just a mortal man, like you. I have no more power to pray on your behalf, than you have to pray on your own behalf. I have no power to meaningfully intercede on your behalf, with God.

The premise on which the veneration of saints is based seems to rest heavily on the premise that being in the same place as God, they are in a position to address him more directly than we mortals are able to do, and to influence Him in a way that we cannot. The idea that we can pray to them, and get them to influence God on our behalf, would appear to make them intercessors of the sort that the Bible makes clear is a role belonging exclusively to Jesus.

 

[Votar Roja]

I'm just a mortal man, like you. I have no more power to pray on your behalf, than you have to pray on your own behalf. I have no power to meaningfully intercede on your behalf, with God. . . . . .

Its not about "power". Its about the fact that us praying for each other is pleasing to God.

Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4).

So, you never pray for anyone? Sad.

QUOTE:

the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!”

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).

What the Early Church Believed: The Intercession of the Saints

Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice praying to saints. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

www.catholic.com