Prayer in public school is okay...if you pray toward Mecca

[Annie]

In Oregon there are no Truant Officers searching for kids. I know of several kids that just don't go to school but when they want to. It's sad but the schools here don't care.

Sorry to answer twice, but in this case wouldn't you think it's more a parenting problem than school? BTW, just so you know, I'm a big advocate on homeschooling, so don't get me wrong.

It's from home that kids in schools do derive their attitudes towards school. Schools do not provide truant officers, they come out of our county budget, I think under social services.

 

[Angel Heart]

I wish we had that here. I know of 3 right off the top of my head that missed most if not all of the last school year.

Granted I know a lot that have issues with my choice when it comes to schooling my children. BUT... Anyone that knows my kids, knows that they are better now than they where when they where in. They absorb more due to how I teach them. I make it hands on as much as I can. We don't sit for hours like they do in public schools. They also have some say in what we learn. Like science, we make the choice as to what we do next. Currently we are studying robotics and electronics. We are thinking of doing some physics next. Not like I haven't been adding physics into robotics.

 

[Angel Heart]

Sorry to answer twice, but in this case wouldn't you think it's more a parenting problem than school? BTW, just so you know, I'm a big advocate on homeschooling, so don't get me wrong.

It's from home that kids in schools do derive their attitudes towards school. Schools do not provide truant officers, they come out of our county budget, I think under social services.

OH I agree.

 

[Diuretic]

Muslim kids are being given a 15 minute break. Remember back in school? High school classes are 50 minutes. Middle school 45-50. Lunch-40 minutes or so. This is an additional 15 minutes-for prayer.

If it's math, they miss 75 minutes per week. Now it's time for 'assessment,' they are now 'disadvantaged' to the kids that didn't leave. Is that fair? My guess is that the teacher is either having to give up time for the other students. Not right.

Any kid can say their own prayers whenever they want, as long as they are not disruptive. I can tell you right now, even 1 or 2 students getting out for 15 minutes of class is disruptive.

I can see your point about a specific break for some kids and not others. I hadn't thought of that and I agree it would be extremely disruptive and I wouldn't go along with it. I was thinking that perhaps breaks could be synchronised but then I can see that would be attacked. Perhaps then the students can be given a dispensation from their local Imam to pray in class but in a modified manner. But there I go, I just bumped into the idea that there should be no religion in classes. Buggered if I know then...

 

[Annie]

I wish we had that here. I know of 3 right off the top of my head that missed most if not all of the last school year.

Granted I know a lot that have issues with my choice when it comes to schooling my children. BUT... Anyone that knows my kids, knows that they are better now than they where when they where in. They absorb more due to how I teach them. I make it hands on as much as I can. We don't sit for hours like they do in public schools. They also have some say in what we learn. Like science, we make the choice as to what we do next. Currently we are studying robotics and electronics. We are thinking of doing some physics next. Not like I haven't been adding physics into robotics.

If ever you'll have an audience, it's me. I teacher middle school social studies. I have three kids, all in or finishing up university, on their own for the most part financially. I read about your kids; my oldest is ADD with learning disabilities, middle gifted with ADHD, youngest 'gifted' but had behavioral disorder issues that I was able to avoid getting labeled, by the time he was in 5th grade I was teaching.

If I knew then what I know now, I would have homeschooled as long as I could have. With behavior managed, there would be no reason other than interest, for academic lessons to take more than 3-4 hours per day, depending on age. Much less for ps-3rd.Then the application/connection phases could really kick in.

Lego has some sort of robot club deal going on. I'm sure you could find something on it at their site.

 

[Angel Heart]

I've heard about the Lego robotics and have thought about doing it. It's the cost that's getting me. Most of my teaching materials I get 2nd hand at free or near free.

We're what they call an eclectic homeschoolers. I don't use one set of curriculum and use life as much as possible. I'm not doing it entirely alone too. I belong to a homeschooling circle (co-op). One of us works on the writing, one on the math, etc etc. I do most of the science end right now.

When your children where little homeschooling wasn't as talked about as it is now. I very thankful that it's an option (unlike in Germany but that's another thread entirely). Oregon is one of the most homeschooling friendly states. Our laws are simple. You have to notify them when you pull them if they are already enrolled or when they turn 7 before September 1st. We have to test in 3rd, 5th, 8th and 10th. If they don't pass, you have to bring them back in 12 months. If they still don't pass but have made improvements, they leave you be. If they haven't they encourage you to get tutoring. They do have the power to prosecute but have done so in only one case in the last 20+ yrs and they lost. I know several that have never sent in the notifications to the schools but have never been asked or challenged.

I'm not homeschooling my oldest (16 next week). My mom is doing that. She's a special ed teacher with a specialty in dyslexia. He's dyslexic too. We decided with his learning differences he needed the one on one that she can provide. He will never be a 'good' reader.

2 of my younger children have learning differences but don't require as much one on one. My 2nd son (13) is ADD and dyslexic (you know how hard it is to get help with this through the schools?). He was on meds until we pulled him out last year. He's doing great with out them too. My 3rd son (11) is most likely Asperger's. Social skills are the major thing I'm working on with him. He has a hard time putting himself in the other person's shoes. My 4th son (9) was put on meds for ADD at the prompting of his teacher. We pulled him as soon as he came home for schooling and is doing great. I don't think he's ADD but just a normal active boy. My only girl (she'll be 5 next month) has shown no signs of issues. She's very bright and loves learning. She just finished up Head Start last month. I don't know yet if I'm going to be putting her in to kindergarten or not. I really don't want to but she really wants to go.

I think you would love to spend a day with us. We do a lot of learning through action. My kids are all very kinetic learners.

 

[Annie]

AH, with 5 kids you are getting close to a 'normal classroom' in size. Anyone that teaches recognizes early on that one curriculum will not fit 5 kids, much less 25. Classroom teachers most often do the best they can, including all the nonsense paper work, bad assemblies, and behavior issues with hands tied behind back. If stuck with an unsupportive administration triple the headaches.

I try to 'differentiate' most of my lessons, providing 'enrichment' for quicker kids; enough time and projects for 'average' kids to understand; and modified for kids with learning disabilites. Now each of these groups are made up of individuals, with many in the 'lowest' groups with disabilities also being very bright. How much better for them and me if they were more or less ability grouped to begin with? Then I could make my lessons fit their 'level' and the assessments provide choices within that level, providing opportunities of playing more to the individual strengths?

Schools do many things wrong, but society's mantra over the past 40 or more years of blaming teachers for the wrongs of students and parents, while asking them to teach sex ed, diversity, character, etc., while remaining unbiased and actually getting to the academics, is well a bit of a stretch. Teaching to the tests does happen, but not to the degree that many wish to blame it. The primary culprit is loss of teaching time, through 'institutes', assemblies, teaching 'required' objectives such as those mentioned above, and behavior management issues.

I lucky in that I'm in a parochial school in a pretty wealthy area. Most of my middle school students read above the 10th grade level, though in all 3 grades there are at least 2 that are below a 5th grade level. In less affluent public schools the teachers often face many more obstacles than I do. Then add on the problem that many of the teachers themselves have been failed by the education departments of the universities they attended.

 

[Angel Heart]

I agree with all your points. It's so true that the teachers so often are put to blame when it's the system and the parents that are the problems.

The system is the biggest issue I have when it comes to my children.

The point I pulled was when I was sitting in an IEP for my 2nd son. They where telling me that he was 2 yrs behind in this. A year behind in that. Then telling me that they where going to push him on to 7th grade. I knew that the best thing for him was to do another year of 6th. It wasn't just my choice on that too. It was his as well. He knew he wasn't ready. They pulled out their charts and statistics. They said that most kids held back this late become drop outs. I told them that my kid isn't a statistic and it also comes down to how we portray it to him. If we say "you're stupid and that's why we are holding you back" he will not achieve all he can from it. But... If we go with "you're going to have another chance to gain the skills you missed and get to do all the cool things you did this year again." He would see it as a positive and grow with it. They didn't see it my way.

We started out with a public school at home program. Connections Academy. It would work great if you had 1 kid or kids that learn on their own. I don't have that. We where doing 3 different things in science. Three different things in history. My head can't split that many ways. I found it hard to move from one topic to another. We drop them in Jan. I gave them a month off and then we started in with our own lessons. It's been bumpy but worth it. I've been amazed with all the cool things I've learned too. It's true what they say... Best way to learn is to teach someone else.

 

[Annie]

I agree with all your points. It's so true that the teachers so often are put to blame when it's the system and the parents that are the problems.

The system is the biggest issue I have when it comes to my children.

The point I pulled was when I was sitting in an IEP for my 2nd son. They where telling me that he was 2 yrs behind in this. A year behind in that. Then telling me that they where going to push him on to 7th grade. I knew that the best thing for him was to do another year of 6th. It wasn't just my choice on that too. It was his as well. He knew he wasn't ready. They pulled out their charts and statistics. They said that most kids held back this late become drop outs. I told them that my kid isn't a statistic and it also comes down to how we portray it to him. If we say "you're stupid and that's why we are holding you back" he will not achieve all he can from it. But... If we go with "you're going to have another chance to gain the skills you missed and get to do all the cool things you did this year again." He would see it as a positive and grow with it. They didn't see it my way.

We started out with a public school at home program. Connections Academy. It would work great if you had 1 kid or kids that learn on their own. I don't have that. We where doing 3 different things in science. Three different things in history. My head can't split that many ways. I found it hard to move from one topic to another. We drop them in Jan. I gave them a month off and then we started in with our own lessons. It's been bumpy but worth it. I've been amazed with all the cool things I've learned too. It's true what they say... Best way to learn is to teach someone else.

I've heard all the 'data' on older kids being held back. There are pretty good reasons 'in general' to pay attention to those stats. There are qualifiers though. If the 6th or 7th grade student is average to small in stature and a different building is available so he/she has a social chance to 'start over', if the parents have been turning down the idea of 'repeating' in the lower grades but along with the child realize later that there may be a maturity problem coupled with a new change in attitude, great things may happen. I've only seen this once in 9 years, but that kid just was accepted a U of Wisconsin, Madison.

 

[Angel Heart]

I had asked about his being retained several times before. They would tell me "oh he'll be fine in the next grade, he's getting services". They would never address my questions about dyslexia. They actually told me it's an archaic term. When in fact it isn't. I would come in with ideas to work with him and they would tell me "oh don't do that even at home, it will confuse him too much with what we are doing here". They would gang up on me. It's a classic move in an IEP to get the parents to do what they want them to. Oh you should of seen the looks when I said I'm pulling him. Homeschoolers are not very welcome in the schools. Even though they are required by law to help us.

 

[Annie]

I had asked about his being retained several times before. They would tell me "oh he'll be fine in the next grade, he's getting services". They would never address my questions about dyslexia. They actually told me it's an archaic term. When in fact it isn't. I would come in with ideas to work with him and they would tell me "oh don't do that even at home, it will confuse him too much with what we are doing here". They would gang up on me. It's a classic move in an IEP to get the parents to do what they want them to. Oh you should of seen the looks when I said I'm pulling him. Homeschoolers are not very welcome in the schools. Even though they are required by law to help us.

Yes, fight to get any help they can provide. I've seen that happen at IEP meetings. Sometimes the best way of doing that is finding the one specialist that your son likes, developing a rapport and seeing if they may not become your ally.

 

[Angel Heart]

I've done that now. I'm so thankful to Head Start for helping me with that too. I'm not alone. I take the program director with me . I'm on the local Policy Council and just finished serving as a state rep to the Oregon Head Start Association. I have talked with many elected officials on the topic of education. Thanks to Head Start I might even run for an office one day. But that's an entire different topic.

Thankfully we are no longer in need of the services the schools provide. He's no longer on an IEP. He was mostly on it for speech. He was taken off in March. The speech pathologist at the middle school is one I like a lot. He decided he didn't need help due to the only letter he had issue with was his R's. He sounds like he's from Mass.

As for his being behind in the other areas. We've made up a lot of ground with the help of AVKO for sequential spelling (awesome program) and the focus of his strengths and acceptance of his weaknesses. It's helped a lot that he can pick what books he reads. He's now tackling Harry Potter 6 after finishing the other 5. We are doing the midnight selling of them at Powell books in DT Portland.

 

[Annie]

I've done that now. I'm so thankful to Head Start for helping me with that too. I'm not alone. I take the program director with me . I'm on the local Policy Council and just finished serving as a state rep to the Oregon Head Start Association. I have talked with many elected officials on the topic of education. Thanks to Head Start I might even run for an office one day. But that's an entire different topic.

Thankfully we are no longer in need of the services the schools provide. He's no longer on an IEP. He was mostly on it for speech. He was taken off in March. The speech pathologist at the middle school is one I like a lot. He decided he didn't need help due to the only letter he had issue with was his R's. He sounds like he's from Mass.

As for his being behind in the other areas. We've made up a lot of ground with the help of AVKO for sequential spelling (awesome program) and the focus of his strengths and acceptance of his weaknesses. It's helped a lot that he can pick what books he reads. He's now tackling Harry Potter 6 after finishing the other 5. We are doing the midnight selling of them at Powell books in DT Portland.

Although usually done at earlier ages, the Montessori method has helped quite alot of kids with dyslexia. I know in my local library there are books. Also our community college library allows country residents to use theirs. A few of the colleges I attended are nearby, all have excellent libraries and they are also open to alumni. Whenever you want to get ideas, those are great starting places.

 

[Angel Heart]

I've done some reading through the library. I'm also using my mom a LOT. I'll definitely check out the local college and see what resorces they have for me. I attended a community college in So Cal. It's a bit out of our reach now.

It's funny. At one time I swore I'd never be a homeschooler. I couldn't imagine myself doing it. It's not as hard as I think most would think it is. Connecting with the child is the biggest thing. I've learned to be a kid again myself. To see the fun in laying in the yard and looking at clouds. Our last topic in science was weather. We would talk about what type of clouds we see and how they are formed for the older ones. All while seeing what shapes we can see. Then there's the MANY trips to the OMSI (Oregon Museum of Science and Industry). The trips to the zoo. I even make a trip to the store as educational as possible. From learning about prices to how to act in public.

 

[Annie]

I've done some reading through the library. I'm also using my mom a LOT. I'll definitely check out the local college and see what resorces they have for me. I attended a community college in So Cal. It's a bit out of our reach now.

It's funny. At one time I swore I'd never be a homeschooler. I couldn't imagine myself doing it. It's not as hard as I think most would think it is. Connecting with the child is the biggest thing. I've learned to be a kid again myself. To see the fun in laying in the yard and looking at clouds. Our last topic in science was weather. We would talk about what type of clouds we see and how they are formed for the older ones. All while seeing what shapes we can see. Then there's the MANY trips to the OMSI (Oregon Museum of Science and Industry). The trips to the zoo. I even make a trip to the store as educational as possible. From learning about prices to how to act in public.

I agree, when possible there are so many positives and few negatives. For most the problems come in upper grades, when some subjects just get beyond the 'teacher's' abilities. Being in a co-op certainly mitigates that.

 

[Angel Heart]

Exactly why we formed it. It's got some bumps to work out but it's over all been very rewarding.

 

[Vintij]

I dont see the educational benefit or even the relevance of praying inside a school, break or no break.

You let muslims pray at 10am every day, next thing you know you have evangelical wackos demanding a confessional booth in the cafeteria. The standard should not be crossed no matter how small the request because that will only lead to further religious seperation, I mean would you see jesus up in the supreme court saying "well they can do it, why cant we do it" no thats not an excuse.

Religion is so stupid sometimes. When is the last time religion solved anything?!?!? Poverty, immigration, violence, hate, biggotry....are in no way affected by religion and in general it causes more hate than acceptance.

I would have thought that jesus would want you to be happy for the muslim children who got to pray during class, not envious.

 

[DeadCanDance]

I truly believe the aclu has a political agenda, and by their silence on footbaths at kansas city international airport, and community college, i think in the same city. They are being hypocritical, and because of that, might as be considered a terrorist organization against christians.

At least be consistent aclu

I support www.stoptheaclu.com

"At least be consistent aclu"

Honestly, it appears you've been getting your information on the ACLU from NewsMax and FreeRepublic. ACLU defends everyones civil liberties: from Rush Limbaugh (ACLU helped him with his drug charge), to this Christian inmate in Rhode Island. Naturally, you won't read about these cases on FreeRepublic:

RHODE ISLAND ACLU FILES APPEAL ON BEHALF OF INMATE BARRED FROM PREACHING AT CHRISTIAN SERVICES

The Rhode Island ACLU has filed an appeal in federal court on behalf of an ACI inmate who has been barred from preaching during Christian religious services at the state prison. The plaintiff, Wesley Spratt, had been preaching at ACI services for seven years before he was unilaterally stopped from doing so based on vague and generalized “security” concerns. The appeal, filed by ACLU volunteer attorney Carly Beauvais Iafrate, argues that the preaching ban violates a federal law designed to protect the religious freedom of institutionalized persons.

Spratt, who considers his preaching a “calling” from God, had been preaching at religious services on a weekly basis under the supervision, and with the support, of clergy at the ACI. The DOC provided no evidence of security problems during, or as the result of, his supervised preaching during the seven years he had been doing so. Nonetheless, when a new warden took over the maximum security facility in 2003, Spratt was ordered to stop preaching.....snip

ACLU attorney Iafrate said today: “RLUIPA is an important federal law that was designed to protect the religious freedom of people like Wesley Spratt. That law is undermined if courts give uncritical deference to prison officials in denying inmates the right to practice their religion.”

http://www.riaclu.org/20060111.html

 

[Alucard]

All children from all religions are permited to expess thier religion freely in all public schools... If thier expression is limited by the school in any way the school loses ALL federal and state funding... Search "Zach's rules"

http://www.becketfund.org/index.php/case/7.html?PHPSESSID=ad41fb5c0a5dee05c089761c937b71e6

 

[Chips Rafferty]

Jewish kids get 'excused' absences. Not like being sick. Same with parents that pull them out for cruises and such. The state wants 'sick' day counts.

Do Muslims get "excused absences" for their religious "holy" days/months? And if not, why not?