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# Power the U.S. With Solar Panels!

#### Toddsterpatriot

##### Diamond Member
For solar farm daytime temperatures to be incrementally cooler the net albedo of the solar panels (after subtracting the solar radiation converted to electricity) must be effectively higher than bare earth, not lower.

The electricity generation doesn't reduce the heating of the planet, it simply moves a portion of it.

#### ding

##### Confront reality
Relative to fossil fuels it does.

If you want to change your claim, you should do that.

What won't be the same is solar radiation warming the surface of the planet (760 < 850).

950.

So converting from fossil fuels to solar will keep the same waste heat and will reduce the effective solar radiation heating the surface

The solar radiation heating the surface is increasing from 850 to 950.
Same claim. Glad you agree with it.

Your numbers are made up. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is no change in waste heat. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is a reduction in solar radiation warming the surface of the planet generating electricity from solar power. That's why cooler daytime temperatures were measured at six solar farms.

#### ding

##### Confront reality
The electricity generation doesn't reduce the heating of the planet, it simply moves a portion of it.
Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is no change in waste heat. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is a reduction in solar radiation warming the surface of the planet generating electricity from solar power. That's why cooler daytime temperatures were measured at six solar farms.

#### Toddsterpatriot

##### Diamond Member
Same claim. Glad you agree with it.

Your numbers are made up. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is no change in waste heat. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is a reduction in solar radiation warming the surface of the planet generating electricity from solar power. That's why cooler daytime temperatures were measured at six solar farms.

Same claim. Glad you agree with it.

You agree that solar panels add heat to the Earth?

Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is a reduction in solar radiation warming the surface of the planet

Ummmm......relative to fossil fuels? You're changing your original claim?

#### Toddsterpatriot

##### Diamond Member
Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is no change in waste heat. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is a reduction in solar radiation warming the surface of the planet generating electricity from solar power. That's why cooler daytime temperatures were measured at six solar farms.

That's why cooler daytime temperatures were measured at six solar farms.

Because some heat was moved to the city.

Or do you think you've refuted conservation of energy?

Any more info on those heat powered solar panels? That'd be a huge breakthrough!

#### ding

##### Confront reality
You agree that solar panels add heat to the Earth?
Don't be silly. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is no change in waste heat. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is a reduction in solar radiation warming the surface of the planet generating electricity from solar power. That's why cooler daytime temperatures were measured at six solar farms.
Ummmm......relative to fossil fuels? You're changing your original claim?
You do realize the aim is to replace electrical generation from fossil fuels with solar and wind, right?

#### Toddsterpatriot

##### Diamond Member
They were wrong. ANY solar radiation that is converted into energy is solar radiation that does not heat the surface of the earth. It's called conservation of energy and is the first law of thermodynamics.

We are in an interglacial cycle. Our present temperature is 2C below the peak temperatures of previous interglacial cycles. Everything is normal. You are mistaking the natural variations of the earth's climate during an interglacial cycle with CO2.

No mention of "relative to fossil fuels" here.

Weird.

#### ding

##### Confront reality
Because some heat was moved to the city.

Or do you think you've refuted conservation of energy?

Any more info on those heat powered solar panels? That'd be a huge breakthrough!
Incorrect. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is no change in waste heat. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is a reduction in solar radiation warming the surface of the planet generating electricity from solar power. That's why cooler daytime temperatures were measured at six solar farms. Energy is conserved by converting solar radiation that would have warmed the surface of the planet into electricity.

#### Toddsterpatriot

##### Diamond Member
Don't be silly. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is no change in waste heat. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is a reduction in solar radiation warming the surface of the planet generating electricity from solar power. That's why cooler daytime temperatures were measured at six solar farms.

You do realize the aim is to replace electrical generation from fossil fuels with solar and wind, right?

Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is no change in waste heat.

Relative to bare soil, solar panels retain more heat.

You do realize the aim is to replace electrical generation from fossil fuels with solar and wind, right?

You need to make that your new claim.

"We need the waste heat from fossil fuels to prevent the next glaciation".

That claim doesn't get the math and physics wrong, like your original one.

#### Toddsterpatriot

##### Diamond Member
Incorrect. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is no change in waste heat. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is a reduction in solar radiation warming the surface of the planet generating electricity from solar power. That's why cooler daytime temperatures were measured at six solar farms. Energy is conserved by converting solar radiation that would have warmed the surface of the planet into electricity.

Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is no change in waste heat.

Ignoring the solar power waste heat was your first error.

there is a reduction in solar radiation warming the surface of the planet

Ignoring the lower albedo of the solar panels was your second error.

With solar panels there is an increase in solar radiation warming the surface of the planet <fixed it

#### ding

##### Confront reality
No mention of "relative to fossil fuels" here.

Weird.
I was discussing the front end (electricity generation). I wasn't discussing the back end (electricity usage). Energy is conserved in the front end (electricity generation) by converting solar radiation that would have warmed the surface of the planet into electricity. Energy is conserved on the back end (electricity usage) through waste heat that is the exact same for the fossil fuel case and the solar power case. But because energy is conserved in the front end (electricity generation) by converting solar radiation that would have warmed the surface of the planet into electricity converting from fossil fuels to solar will reduce the effective solar radiation warming the surface of the planet by the amount of solar radiation that was converted into electricity thus satisfying the conservation of energy.

#### ding

##### Confront reality
Relative to bare soil, solar panels retain more heat.
Not according to daytime temperature measurements at six solar farms. Besides you have already agreed to this. Remember?

760 < 850

#### ding

##### Confront reality
You need to make that your new claim. "We need the waste heat from fossil fuels to prevent the next glaciation". That claim doesn't get the math and physics wrong, like your original one.
The claim has always and will always be... Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is no change in waste heat. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is a reduction in solar radiation warming the surface of the planet generating electricity from solar power. That's why cooler daytime temperatures were measured at six solar farms. Energy is conserved by converting solar radiation that would have warmed the surface of the planet into electricity.

#### ding

##### Confront reality
Ignoring the solar power waste heat was your first error.
I didn't ignore it. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is no change in waste heat. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is a reduction in solar radiation warming the surface of the planet generating electricity from solar power. That's why cooler daytime temperatures were measured at six solar farms. Energy is conserved by converting solar radiation that would have warmed the surface of the planet into electricity.

#### ding

##### Confront reality
Ignoring the lower albedo of the solar panels was your second error.
For solar farm daytime temperatures to be incrementally cooler the net albedo of the solar panels (after subtracting the solar radiation converted to electricity) must be effectively higher than bare earth, not lower.

#### Toddsterpatriot

##### Diamond Member
I was discussing the front end (electricity generation). I wasn't discussing the back end (electricity usage). Energy is conserved in the front end (electricity generation) by converting solar radiation that would have warmed the surface of the planet into electricity. Energy is conserved on the back end (electricity usage) through waste heat that is the exact same for the fossil fuel case and the solar power case. But because energy is conserved in the front end (electricity generation) by converting solar radiation that would have warmed the surface of the planet into electricity converting from fossil fuels to solar will reduce the effective solar radiation warming the surface of the planet by the amount of solar radiation that was converted into electricity thus satisfying the conservation of energy.

I was discussing the front end (electricity generation). I wasn't discussing the back end (electricity usage).

I know, that's where you got the physics wrong.

Energy is conserved in the front end (electricity generation) by converting solar radiation that would have warmed the surface of the planet into electricity. Energy is conserved on the back end (electricity usage) through waste heat

Exactly. I'm glad I could finally get you to realize you error.

But because energy is conserved in the front end (electricity generation) by converting solar radiation that would have warmed the surface of the planet

Ummmm....you just admitted the waste heat warms the planet. There is no cooling from solar.

converting from fossil fuels to solar

If you stopped there, you'd eliminate your errors.
Solar doesn't cool the planet....ending fossil fuels will cool the planet.

#### ding

##### Confront reality
With solar panels there is an increase in solar radiation warming the surface of the planet <fixed it
Incorrect. Your numbers are made up. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is no change in waste heat. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is a reduction in solar radiation warming the surface of the planet generating electricity from solar power. That's why cooler daytime temperatures were measured at six solar farms.

#### ding

##### Confront reality
I was discussing the front end (electricity generation). I wasn't discussing the back end (electricity usage).

I know, that's where you got the physics wrong.

Exactly. I'm glad I could finally get you to realize you error.

Ummmm....you just admitted the waste heat warms the planet. There is no cooling from solar.

If you stopped there, you'd eliminate your errors.
Solar doesn't cool the planet....ending fossil fuels will cool the planet.
Again... Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is no change in waste heat. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is a reduction in solar radiation warming the surface of the planet generating electricity from solar power. That's why cooler daytime temperatures were measured at six solar farms.

#### Toddsterpatriot

##### Diamond Member
Not according to daytime temperature measurements at six solar farms. Besides you have already agreed to this. Remember?

You're saying "Look at the temperature in my freezer, it's colder. My freezer cools the planet"

Besides you have already agreed to this. Remember?

Yes, I agree that moving heat from your freezer into your kitchen cooled your freezer.

#### ding

##### Confront reality
You're saying "Look at the temperature in my freezer, it's colder. My freezer cools the planet"

Besides you have already agreed to this. Remember?

View attachment 662678

Yes, I agree that moving heat from your freezer into your kitchen cooled your freezer.
I'm saying... Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is no change in waste heat. Relative to electricity generated from fossil fuels there is a reduction in solar radiation warming the surface of the planet generating electricity from solar power. That's why cooler daytime temperatures were measured at six solar farms.

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