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I think we've all conceded the one degree C doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere. However, there is no proof it is catastrophic to have that one degree change or that more warming will occur. I'd like to see the experiment that would validate the point.Actually, for a change, the Pooh flinging monkey makes some good points.
I think he usually stays away from the science because he knows that the deeper you get into it the more uncertain the IPCC's case becomes.
But there is no experiment to prove any of the argument on the warmer side. And they won't admit it. Therefore there is no evidence that catastrophe is headed our wayGHGs fundamentally change atmospheric radiation and convection. They hold heat in at the surface but allow it to more easily escape at higher altitudes. The water cycle causes convection that is the basis of weather but also shuttles huge amounts of heat energy both aloft and towards the poles.
The IPCC has different definitions of TOA (top of atmosphere) depending on what calculations they are doing. I am not saying they are deliberately misdirecting, just that it makes it more difficult to follow their reasoning when the same word mean different things at different times.
And I will disagree there is back radiation. And I'll wait on evidence on ocean temperatures driving land temperature. It will definitely drive weather patterns but cause increases, no. Just my position.There is definitely evidence that increased CO2 impedes energy loss at the surface by RADIATION. The big question is whether that energy is used in whole or in part to actually raise surface temps. I believe that at least some of it warms the surface but that much of it is shunted into different pathways. More, or differently timed cloud formation being the simplest effect. The Iris Effect.
Ocean warming is also probable. It is know that the oceans are the biggest factor in overall temp and weather patterns. What I would like to know is this. The oceans are warming much slower than the atmosphere. If the oceans warm 0.2C but the atmosphere warms 2C or 4C, how long does this imbalance go on for? What is the balance point? Does 0.4C ocean warming equate to 4 or 8C? How about in the opposite direction? Most proxy reconstructions put ocean heat content at very low values right now compared to the rest of the interglacial. What is the relationship between ocean and air temps? What is the fulcrum point where air and ocean differences are equal? What is the 'right' temperature anyways?
Please review the hundred or so references in the HITRAN spectral database that quantify in detail the absorbtion spectrum of CO2.
HITRAN
That's been presented to jc before. He says those hundred papers don't count. Because he says so. He doesn't need any other reasons.
We've shown him many other experiments. jc says they all don't count. And never gives a reason. jc, along with Billy, just declare the last century of physics never happened, and they're sticking to that purely out of religious faith.
At this point, jc tends to run for cover by lying about the Koch experiment. Even his own source says he's full of shit, so jc pretends not to have seen that part of his source. This would be what jc always deliberately leaves out.
The Carbon Dioxide Greenhouse Effect
---
These measurements and arguments had fatal flaws. Herr Koch had reported to Ångström that the absorption had not been reduced by more than 0.4% when he lowered the pressure, but a modern calculation shows that the absorption would have decreased about 1% — like many a researcher, the assistant was over confident about his degree of precision.(9*) But even if he had seen the1% shift, Ångström would have thought this an insignificant perturbation. He failed to understand that the logic of the experiment was altogether false.
The greenhouse effect will in fact operate even if the absorption of radiation were totally saturated in the lower atmosphere. The planet's temperature is regulated by the thin upper layers where radiation does escape easily into space. Adding more greenhouse gas there will change the balance. Moreover, even a 1% change in that delicate balance would make a serious difference in the planet’s surface temperature. The logic is rather simple once it is grasped, but it takes a new way of looking at the atmosphere — not as a single slab, like the gas in Koch's tube (or the glass over a greenhouse), but as a set of interacting layers.
---
jc, discuss the science. It's not honest to present an argument, and then deliberately leave out the next paragraphs that show the fatal flaws of the argument. That sort of chronic dishonesty is why nobody outside of your cult gives you the time of day, and never will, no matter how often you lie about not being shown the experiments.
Now, if you'd like, we can go over again how you and Billy lied your asses off about the mythbusters experiment. Shameful indeed, your behavior there was. It's a wonder you're still willing to show your faces here.
Also, if you'd like, we could point out the staggering stupidity of asking for a quick lab experiment that instantly predicts the temperature change on earth over many decades. Even rudimentary intelligence and common sense would have someone understanding how stupid that demand is, so only the most brainless religious fanatics make that demand.
Please review the hundred or so references in the HITRAN spectral database that quantify in detail the absorbtion spectrum of CO2.
HITRAN
That's been presented to jc before. He says those hundred papers don't count. Because he says so. He doesn't need any other reasons.
We've shown him many other experiments. jc says they all don't count. And never gives a reason. jc, along with Billy, just declare the last century of physics never happened, and they're sticking to that purely out of religious faith.
At this point, jc tends to run for cover by lying about the Koch experiment. Even his own source says he's full of shit, so jc pretends not to have seen that part of his source. This would be what jc always deliberately leaves out.
The Carbon Dioxide Greenhouse Effect
---
These measurements and arguments had fatal flaws. Herr Koch had reported to Ångström that the absorption had not been reduced by more than 0.4% when he lowered the pressure, but a modern calculation shows that the absorption would have decreased about 1% — like many a researcher, the assistant was over confident about his degree of precision.(9*) But even if he had seen the1% shift, Ångström would have thought this an insignificant perturbation. He failed to understand that the logic of the experiment was altogether false.
The greenhouse effect will in fact operate even if the absorption of radiation were totally saturated in the lower atmosphere. The planet's temperature is regulated by the thin upper layers where radiation does escape easily into space. Adding more greenhouse gas there will change the balance. Moreover, even a 1% change in that delicate balance would make a serious difference in the planet’s surface temperature. The logic is rather simple once it is grasped, but it takes a new way of looking at the atmosphere — not as a single slab, like the gas in Koch's tube (or the glass over a greenhouse), but as a set of interacting layers.
---
jc, discuss the science. It's not honest to present an argument, and then deliberately leave out the next paragraphs that show the fatal flaws of the argument. That sort of chronic dishonesty is why nobody outside of your cult gives you the time of day, and never will, no matter how often you lie about not being shown the experiments.
Now, if you'd like, we can go over again how you and Billy lied your asses off about the mythbusters experiment. Shameful indeed, your behavior there was. It's a wonder you're still willing to show your faces here.
Also, if you'd like, we could point out the staggering stupidity of asking for a quick lab experiment that instantly predicts the temperature change on earth over many decades. Even rudimentary intelligence and common sense would have someone understanding how stupid that demand is, so only the most brainless religious fanatics make that demand.
1). HIGHTRAN models fail all empirical, real world, predictive review.
FORTRAN and other two dimensional models can not predict 4 dimensions (some say there are 5) in a complex chaotic system. Your models can not predict anything with any accuracy.
2) Precision depends on the tools used. Angstrom made serious assumptions for which he has no proof.
The tools and math he used have error bars of 2% which show his assumptions to be within the margin of error.
Herr Koch was neither proven nor disproven by Angstrom.
3) Science requires that we ask for proof of the causation.
I would like to point out the staggering stupidity of mantooth for not providing that which science and true scientists demand.
Even rudimentary intelligence and common sense would have some understanding how science works and demands it
Only the most brainless religious fanatics would not make that demand. Only a fool would believe the AGW cult lies..
And I will disagree there is back radiation.
Did I write that? Hahahaha, so instead of giving what the temperature Is supposed to be you drag out some number and claim I stated it. You're such a liar.And I will disagree there is back radiation.
So... you believe the temperature of the surface of the Earth is, what, about 50,000K? Higher?
So, why didn't anyone rerun the KOCH's experiment with what they felt was in error?Please review the hundred or so references in the HITRAN spectral database that quantify in detail the absorbtion spectrum of CO2.
HITRAN
That's been presented to jc before. He says those hundred papers don't count. Because he says so. He doesn't need any other reasons.
We've shown him many other experiments. jc says they all don't count. And never gives a reason. jc, along with Billy, just declare the last century of physics never happened, and they're sticking to that purely out of religious faith.
At this point, jc tends to run for cover by lying about the Koch experiment. Even his own source says he's full of shit, so jc pretends not to have seen that part of his source. This would be what jc always deliberately leaves out.
The Carbon Dioxide Greenhouse Effect
---
These measurements and arguments had fatal flaws. Herr Koch had reported to Ångström that the absorption had not been reduced by more than 0.4% when he lowered the pressure, but a modern calculation shows that the absorption would have decreased about 1% — like many a researcher, the assistant was over confident about his degree of precision.(9*) But even if he had seen the1% shift, Ångström would have thought this an insignificant perturbation. He failed to understand that the logic of the experiment was altogether false.
The greenhouse effect will in fact operate even if the absorption of radiation were totally saturated in the lower atmosphere. The planet's temperature is regulated by the thin upper layers where radiation does escape easily into space. Adding more greenhouse gas there will change the balance. Moreover, even a 1% change in that delicate balance would make a serious difference in the planet’s surface temperature. The logic is rather simple once it is grasped, but it takes a new way of looking at the atmosphere — not as a single slab, like the gas in Koch's tube (or the glass over a greenhouse), but as a set of interacting layers.
---
jc, discuss the science. It's not honest to present an argument, and then deliberately leave out the next paragraphs that show the fatal flaws of the argument. That sort of chronic dishonesty is why nobody outside of your cult gives you the time of day, and never will, no matter how often you lie about not being shown the experiments.
Now, if you'd like, we can go over again how you and Billy lied your asses off about the mythbusters experiment. Shameful indeed, your behavior there was. It's a wonder you're still willing to show your faces here.
Also, if you'd like, we could point out the staggering stupidity of asking for a quick lab experiment that instantly predicts the temperature change on earth over many decades. Even rudimentary intelligence and common sense would have someone understanding how stupid that demand is, so only the most brainless religious fanatics make that demand.
1). HIGHTRAN models fail all empirical, real world, predictive review.
That is utter nonsense. From Wikipedia "HITRAN [not "HIGHTRAN"] is the worldwide standard for calculating or simulating atmospheric molecular transmission and radiance from the microwave through ultraviolet region of the spectrum."
FORTRAN and other two dimensional models can not predict 4 dimensions (some say there are 5) in a complex chaotic system. Your models can not predict anything with any accuracy.
FORTRAN is a computer language. HITRAN is a database. It makes no predictions. It specifies the calculations of absorption spectra for 47 different gases. Your comments here only serve to indicate you don't have a fucking clue as to what you're talking about.
2) Precision depends on the tools used. Angstrom made serious assumptions for which he has no proof.
He made assumptions that are not borne out by a fuller understanding of reality. His assumption on the process of radiative transfer in the atmosphere was grossly oversimplified.
The tools and math he used have error bars of 2% which show his assumptions to be within the margin of error.
No, they were not. Koch could have found that all IR was absorbed in a fraction of an inch and it would have made no difference. Transfer away from the Earth is controlled at ToA, not at the fucking surface. Angstrom's whole viewpoint on how the system works WAS WRONG.
Herr Koch was neither proven nor disproven by Angstrom.
Koch worked for Angstrom. Are you thinking of Hurlburt?
3) Science requires that we ask for proof of the causation.
No, it does not. It asks for testable evidence. Nowhere does the scientific method require proof.
I would like to point out the staggering stupidity of mantooth for not providing that which science and true scientists demand.
I would like to point out the staggering stupidity of Billy Bob and his belief that the scientific method mandates proof.
Even rudimentary intelligence and common sense would have some understanding how science works and demands it
You'd think so, but Billy demonstrates it does not.
Only the most brainless religious fanatics would not make that demand. Only a fool would believe the AGW cult lies..
Besides failing at a basic understanding of the scientific method, WHAT is Billy Boy talking about? The measurements of gaseous absorption spectra, all available in the HITRAN database is a clear determination of the amount of energy that CO2 absorbs from the solar spectrum. The experiment has been done many, many times. So, what "prediction" is Billy Boy talking about? And what causation does he think untested? Does he think multiple experiments set up expressly to measure CO2's absorption spectra have somehow measured something altogether different? Enlighten us Billy Boy, please.
Please review the hundred or so references in the HITRAN spectral database that quantify in detail the absorbtion spectrum of CO2.
HITRAN
That's been presented to jc before. He says those hundred papers don't count. Because he says so. He doesn't need any other reasons.
We've shown him many other experiments. jc says they all don't count. And never gives a reason. jc, along with Billy, just declare the last century of physics never happened, and they're sticking to that purely out of religious faith.
At this point, jc tends to run for cover by lying about the Koch experiment. Even his own source says he's full of shit, so jc pretends not to have seen that part of his source. This would be what jc always deliberately leaves out.
The Carbon Dioxide Greenhouse Effect
---
These measurements and arguments had fatal flaws. Herr Koch had reported to Ångström that the absorption had not been reduced by more than 0.4% when he lowered the pressure, but a modern calculation shows that the absorption would have decreased about 1% — like many a researcher, the assistant was over confident about his degree of precision.(9*) But even if he had seen the1% shift, Ångström would have thought this an insignificant perturbation. He failed to understand that the logic of the experiment was altogether false.
The greenhouse effect will in fact operate even if the absorption of radiation were totally saturated in the lower atmosphere. The planet's temperature is regulated by the thin upper layers where radiation does escape easily into space. Adding more greenhouse gas there will change the balance. Moreover, even a 1% change in that delicate balance would make a serious difference in the planet’s surface temperature. The logic is rather simple once it is grasped, but it takes a new way of looking at the atmosphere — not as a single slab, like the gas in Koch's tube (or the glass over a greenhouse), but as a set of interacting layers.
---
jc, discuss the science. It's not honest to present an argument, and then deliberately leave out the next paragraphs that show the fatal flaws of the argument. That sort of chronic dishonesty is why nobody outside of your cult gives you the time of day, and never will, no matter how often you lie about not being shown the experiments.
Now, if you'd like, we can go over again how you and Billy lied your asses off about the mythbusters experiment. Shameful indeed, your behavior there was. It's a wonder you're still willing to show your faces here.
Also, if you'd like, we could point out the staggering stupidity of asking for a quick lab experiment that instantly predicts the temperature change on earth over many decades. Even rudimentary intelligence and common sense would have someone understanding how stupid that demand is, so only the most brainless religious fanatics make that demand.
1). HIGHTRAN models fail all empirical, real world, predictive review.
That is utter nonsense. From Wikipedia "HITRAN [not "HIGHTRAN"] is the worldwide standard for calculating or simulating atmospheric molecular transmission and radiance from the microwave through ultraviolet region of the spectrum."
FORTRAN and other two dimensional models can not predict 4 dimensions (some say there are 5) in a complex chaotic system. Your models can not predict anything with any accuracy.
FORTRAN is a computer language. HITRAN is a database. It makes no predictions. It specifies the calculations of absorption spectra for 47 different gases. Your comments here only serve to indicate you don't have a fucking clue as to what you're talking about.
2) Precision depends on the tools used. Angstrom made serious assumptions for which he has no proof.
He made assumptions that are not borne out by a fuller understanding of reality. His assumption on the process of radiative transfer in the atmosphere was grossly oversimplified.
The tools and math he used have error bars of 2% which show his assumptions to be within the margin of error.
No, they were not. Koch could have found that all IR was absorbed in a fraction of an inch and it would have made no difference. Transfer away from the Earth is controlled at ToA, not at the fucking surface. Angstrom's whole viewpoint on how the system works WAS WRONG.
Herr Koch was neither proven nor disproven by Angstrom.
Koch worked for Angstrom. Are you thinking of Hurlburt?
3) Science requires that we ask for proof of the causation.
No, it does not. It asks for testable evidence. Nowhere does the scientific method require proof.
I would like to point out the staggering stupidity of mantooth for not providing that which science and true scientists demand.
I would like to point out the staggering stupidity of Billy Bob and his belief that the scientific method mandates proof.
Even rudimentary intelligence and common sense would have some understanding how science works and demands it
You'd think so, but Billy demonstrates it does not.
Only the most brainless religious fanatics would not make that demand. Only a fool would believe the AGW cult lies..
Besides failing at a basic understanding of the scientific method, WHAT is Billy Boy talking about? The measurements of gaseous absorption spectra, all available in the HITRAN database is a clear determination of the amount of energy that CO2 absorbs from the solar spectrum. The experiment has been done many, many times. So, what "prediction" is Billy Boy talking about? And what causation does he think untested? Does he think multiple experiments set up expressly to measure CO2's absorption spectra have somehow measured something altogether different? Enlighten us Billy Boy, please.
That Air Force original research was done because the Air Force was trying to make missiles with IR seeker heads. There's no point in trying to detect IR in a frequency band that gets absorbed by the atmosphere, so the Air Force had to carefully quantify the absorption spectrum of each gas in the atmosphere. And they had to get it exactly right, or the missiles would not lock on to their target.
But according to Billy, all that science never happened. Or it was all faked. Or something. Because the Air Force is just all wrong when they pointed out CO2 absorbs IR.
That Air Force original research was done because the Air Force was trying to make missiles with IR seeker heads. There's no point in trying to detect IR in a frequency band that gets absorbed by the atmosphere, so the Air Force had to carefully quantify the absorption spectrum of each gas in the atmosphere. And they had to get it exactly right, or the missiles would not lock on to their target.
But according to Billy, all that science never happened. Or it was all faked. Or something. Because the Air Force is just all wrong when they pointed out CO2 absorbs IR.
Do you know what a database is?
HITRAN - HITRAN (an acronym for High Resolution Transmission) is a compilation of spectroscopic parameters that a variety of computer codes use to predict and simulate the transmission and emission of light in the atmosphere. The original version was compiled by the Air Force Cambridge Research Laboratories (1960s). It is maintained and developed at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, Cambridge MA, USA.
HITRAN is the worldwide standard for calculating or simulating atmospheric molecular transmission and radiance from the microwave through ultraviolet region of the spectrum. The current version contains 47 molecular species along with their most significant isotopologues. These data are archived as a multitude of high-resolution line transitions. There are in addition many molecular species collected as cross-section data. These latter include anthropogenic introduced constituents in the atmosphere such as the chlorofluorocarbons.
The HITRAN database can be downloaded in its entirety from an FTP site at the Harvard–Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. There is no charge for downloading the database, but access must be requested in advance by completing an online form. An online tool for browsing and plotting the data called HITRAN on the Web is also provided. This tool was developed by the Harvard–Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics and the V.E. Zuev Institute of Atmospheric Optics. The HITRAN data can also be accessed and downloaded from hitran.org.
Doesn't surprise me it went over his head.That Air Force original research was done because the Air Force was trying to make missiles with IR seeker heads. There's no point in trying to detect IR in a frequency band that gets absorbed by the atmosphere, so the Air Force had to carefully quantify the absorption spectrum of each gas in the atmosphere. And they had to get it exactly right, or the missiles would not lock on to their target.
But according to Billy, all that science never happened. Or it was all faked. Or something. Because the Air Force is just all wrong when they pointed out CO2 absorbs IR.Do you know what a database is?
HITRAN - HITRAN (an acronym for High Resolution Transmission) is a compilation of spectroscopic parameters that a variety of computer codes use to predict and simulate the transmission and emission of light in the atmosphere. The original version was compiled by the Air Force Cambridge Research Laboratories (1960s). It is maintained and developed at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, Cambridge MA, USA.
HITRAN is the worldwide standard for calculating or simulating atmospheric molecular transmission and radiance from the microwave through ultraviolet region of the spectrum. The current version contains 47 molecular species along with their most significant isotopologues. These data are archived as a multitude of high-resolution line transitions. There are in addition many molecular species collected as cross-section data. These latter include anthropogenic introduced constituents in the atmosphere such as the chlorofluorocarbons.
The HITRAN database can be downloaded in its entirety from an FTP site at the Harvard–Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. There is no charge for downloading the database, but access must be requested in advance by completing an online form. An online tool for browsing and plotting the data called HITRAN on the Web is also provided. This tool was developed by the Harvard–Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics and the V.E. Zuev Institute of Atmospheric Optics. The HITRAN data can also be accessed and downloaded from hitran.org.
WOOOSH..........
Right over your dam head...
Doesn't surprise me it went over his head.That Air Force original research was done because the Air Force was trying to make missiles with IR seeker heads. There's no point in trying to detect IR in a frequency band that gets absorbed by the atmosphere, so the Air Force had to carefully quantify the absorption spectrum of each gas in the atmosphere. And they had to get it exactly right, or the missiles would not lock on to their target.
But according to Billy, all that science never happened. Or it was all faked. Or something. Because the Air Force is just all wrong when they pointed out CO2 absorbs IR.Do you know what a database is?
HITRAN - HITRAN (an acronym for High Resolution Transmission) is a compilation of spectroscopic parameters that a variety of computer codes use to predict and simulate the transmission and emission of light in the atmosphere. The original version was compiled by the Air Force Cambridge Research Laboratories (1960s). It is maintained and developed at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, Cambridge MA, USA.
HITRAN is the worldwide standard for calculating or simulating atmospheric molecular transmission and radiance from the microwave through ultraviolet region of the spectrum. The current version contains 47 molecular species along with their most significant isotopologues. These data are archived as a multitude of high-resolution line transitions. There are in addition many molecular species collected as cross-section data. These latter include anthropogenic introduced constituents in the atmosphere such as the chlorofluorocarbons.
The HITRAN database can be downloaded in its entirety from an FTP site at the Harvard–Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. There is no charge for downloading the database, but access must be requested in advance by completing an online form. An online tool for browsing and plotting the data called HITRAN on the Web is also provided. This tool was developed by the Harvard–Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics and the V.E. Zuev Institute of Atmospheric Optics. The HITRAN data can also be accessed and downloaded from hitran.org.
WOOOSH..........
Right over your dam head...
