Political Views of the Founding Fathers

[daveman]

Neither party wants that, what the hell are you smoking? Democrats in this country would be considered conservative in every other country.

You simply haven't been paying attention.

Sure, yes, there are extremists who DO want that. Those do not comprise the majority of the party.

Then why do they support policies designed to strengthen government and supporting collective rights over individual rights?

Same as your party, or do you agree with the extremist right?

I consider myself a conservative, not a Republican. Some see me as an extremist. This Administration considers me a potential domestic terrorist.

It's not all black and white in politics. Being left doesn't automatically mean you support communism anymore than being right supports authoritarianism, nativism, racism and xenophobia. (As per Wikipedia on extremist right politics)

I can only go by what people support.

 

[Photonic]

You simply haven't been paying attention.

Sure, yes, there are extremists who DO want that. Those do not comprise the majority of the party.

Then why do they support policies designed to strengthen government and supporting collective rights over individual rights?

Same as your party, or do you agree with the extremist right?

I consider myself a conservative, not a Republican. Some see me as an extremist. This Administration considers me a potential domestic terrorist.

It's not all black and white in politics. Being left doesn't automatically mean you support communism anymore than being right supports authoritarianism, nativism, racism and xenophobia. (As per Wikipedia on extremist right politics)

I can only go by what people support.

Right, but you take what individuals might support and apply it to the whole with no evidence backing the claim. That's unreasonable.

It's like me going into a store and seeing a bag of food open in the aisle, and coming to the conclusion that, because one bag is open, everything in the store must be!

 

[daveman]

Sure, yes, there are extremists who DO want that. Those do not comprise the majority of the party.

Then why do they support policies designed to strengthen government and supporting collective rights over individual rights?

I consider myself a conservative, not a Republican. Some see me as an extremist. This Administration considers me a potential domestic terrorist.

It's not all black and white in politics. Being left doesn't automatically mean you support communism anymore than being right supports authoritarianism, nativism, racism and xenophobia. (As per Wikipedia on extremist right politics)

I can only go by what people support.

Right, but you take what individuals might support and apply it to the whole with no evidence backing the claim. That's unreasonable.

It's like me going into a store and seeing a bag of food open in the aisle, and coming to the conclusion that, because one bag is open, everything in the store must be!

No evidence? Will election results work for you?

 

[Photonic]

Then why do they support policies designed to strengthen government and supporting collective rights over individual rights?

I consider myself a conservative, not a Republican. Some see me as an extremist. This Administration considers me a potential domestic terrorist.

I can only go by what people support.

Right, but you take what individuals might support and apply it to the whole with no evidence backing the claim. That's unreasonable.

It's like me going into a store and seeing a bag of food open in the aisle, and coming to the conclusion that, because one bag is open, everything in the store must be!

No evidence? Will election results work for you?

Depends, is the amount of people voting the overwhelming majority?

 

[daveman]

Right, but you take what individuals might support and apply it to the whole with no evidence backing the claim. That's unreasonable.

It's like me going into a store and seeing a bag of food open in the aisle, and coming to the conclusion that, because one bag is open, everything in the store must be!

No evidence? Will election results work for you?

Depends, is the amount of people voting the overwhelming majority?

If you're feeling your toes stepped on, I really can't help it. If you object to your views being characterized as nanny-statist, change your views.

 

[Photonic]

No evidence? Will election results work for you?

Depends, is the amount of people voting the overwhelming majority?

If you're feeling your toes stepped on, I really can't help it. If you object to your views being characterized as nanny-statist, change your views.

Except my views don't. Shame about that.

 

[daveman]

Depends, is the amount of people voting the overwhelming majority?

If you're feeling your toes stepped on, I really can't help it. If you object to your views being characterized as nanny-statist, change your views.

Except my views don't. Shame about that.

Uh huh. Do you vote Democrat?

 

[Photonic]

If you're feeling your toes stepped on, I really can't help it. If you object to your views being characterized as nanny-statist, change your views.

Except my views don't. Shame about that.

Uh huh. Do you vote Democrat?

Republican usually.

Sadly not the one who usually wins.

 

[daveman]

Except my views don't. Shame about that.

Uh huh. Do you vote Democrat?

Republican usually.

Uh huh.

 

[Photonic]

Uh huh. Do you vote Democrat?

Republican usually.

Uh huh.

Watch this.


What do you vote?

 

[daveman]

Republican usually.

Uh huh.

Watch this.


What do you vote?

Republican. Usually.

Odd thing is, you don't see me espousing liberal ideas.

 

[Photonic]

Uh huh.

Watch this.


What do you vote?

Republican. Usually.

Odd thing is, you don't see me espousing liberal ideas.

Besides you agree with their restrictive social agenda which I perceive to be anti-American, while I happen to enjoy their conservative fiscal policies.

So I vote for the republican candidate that doesn't have an idiotic fascist social agenda.

 

[RickL]

Hi Professor,

I've been getting hammered by some virulent liberals on my FB page and wondered if you could briefly point me to data to counter their claims? I've been following your thread recently and there have been many points which are applicable to my discussions. I have included the primary challenge below. Thanks, Rick.

--------
Read a f***ing history book, because every major accomplishment made in our country is because of liberals. All of the founding fathers were liberals, radical liberals as a matter of fact. The Revolutionary war was fought by liberals. Conservatives of that time were known as Tories and they aided the British. In the Civil War, liberals fought for the Union, and conservatives fought for the Confederates. Liberals are responsible for the end of slavery, voting rights for women and minorities, civil rights for women and minorities, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, 40 hour work week, weekends, minimum wage, workplace safety, and the list goes on and on. Conservatives? They gave us prohibition, McCarthyism, and a long list of unnecessary wars that have cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of our soldiers. For these reasons and more, I am proud to call myself a liberal, and am disgusted by those of you who are too ignorant to realize you are on the wrong side of history.

 

[blackhawk]

Bottom line no one really knows which party of today the Founding Fathers would be a part of my guess is they would be pretty disgusted with both.

 

[daveman]

Watch this.


What do you vote?

Republican. Usually.

Odd thing is, you don't see me espousing liberal ideas.

Besides you agree with their restrictive social agenda which I perceive to be anti-American, while I happen to enjoy their conservative fiscal policies.

So I vote for the republican candidate that doesn't have an idiotic fascist social agenda.

Blast from the past.

So your GOP vote is good and righteous and holy -- and mine is based on my desire to oppress and enslave people.

 

[boilermaker55]

excellent point!

Yet so many are so set in the ways of the past. The world is to dynamic to not change one's thoughts to accommodate the present and the future. Their is need to always show compassion and acceptance for those struggling.

This society, indeed this world, is so very different than the world of the Floundering Fathers that trying to compare their political POVs with ours is a fools' mission.

 

[BluePhantom]

Hi Professor,

I've been getting hammered by some virulent liberals on my FB page and wondered if you could briefly point me to data to counter their claims? I've been following your thread recently and there have been many points which are applicable to my discussions. I have included the primary challenge below. Thanks, Rick.

--------
Read a f***ing history book, because every major accomplishment made in our country is because of liberals. All of the founding fathers were liberals, radical liberals as a matter of fact. The Revolutionary war was fought by liberals. Conservatives of that time were known as Tories and they aided the British. In the Civil War, liberals fought for the Union, and conservatives fought for the Confederates. Liberals are responsible for the end of slavery, voting rights for women and minorities, civil rights for women and minorities, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, 40 hour work week, weekends, minimum wage, workplace safety, and the list goes on and on. Conservatives? They gave us prohibition, McCarthyism, and a long list of unnecessary wars that have cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of our soldiers. For these reasons and more, I am proud to call myself a liberal, and am disgusted by those of you who are too ignorant to realize you are on the wrong side of history.

WOW! I forgot this thread even existed. ok let me have a look...I have to head to work so I don't have a great deal of time to gather research for you. My first reaction to the argument above is that your opponent is confusing the terms of the day with their modern equivalent. For example, he is completely correct that the Tories who supported the British were considered "conservative" and the revolutionaries were considered "liberal". But those labels in the late 18th century meant something different than they do today. Back then they were really more focused on the degree of rebelliousness then in regard to any political platform of beliefs. Certainly liberals today are far more rebellious then conservatives, but that rebelliousness in the 18th century does not imply that "liberals" then would agree with high taxation, big government, pro-choice viewpoints, etc. In fact there's no way they would agree with the first two because that's exactly what they were rebelling against. Abortion...as I said in the OP (years ago) who knows how they would feel. There is some documentation on an abortion stance by John Jay I believe but it's scarce. But indeed their meaning changed very quickly after gaining independence. I would probably point to the John Quincy Adams and Andrew Jackson administrations where "liberal" and "conservative" really started to take on new meanings and frankly it probably happened far earlier...probably at the moment they had to start thinking about running the government instead of fighting the British.

His arguments about the civil war, slavery, racism, etc...he could not be more wrong. The KKK for example was considered the militant wing of the Democratic Party at the time. It was the Republicans who fought for civil rights. Democrats get the credit because it was signed by Johnson (even though he didn't want to sign it) but it was northern Republicans who were pushing it. Liberals like to claim that after the civil right movement the two parties flipped and liberals became conservative and conservatives became liberals, but while some Democrats left the party and joined the Republicans it was far from the 180 degree flip they insist it was.

Social security, minimum wage, etc...yeah that was liberal but I am not sure those are things to be terribly proud of. The founding fathers sure as hell wouldn't have endorsed them.

He's got us on prohibition and McCarthyism for sure but his statement about Republicans being responsible for countless wars is ridiculous compared to the wars the liberals have gotten us into. I did an analysis comparing "Republican wars" with "Democratic wars" a couple years back. You can find that data here http://www.usmessageboard.com/history/195040-are-republicans-really-the-war-mongers-the-numbers-say-no-2.html. Unfortunately it's not well documented because it's basically a lot of independent research and math but it will give you some idea.

I will try to email you some links when I have more time.

One thing I can tell you though just by reading your opponents quotes is that arguing with this guy is basically an exercise in futility. I can tell by the tenacity of his comments that you will never get him to acknowledge any view other than his own. For example his point about the wars Republicans have created is so dead wrong it's laughable but even if you wave the statistics right under his nose he will deny it somehow. I deal with the same things on the threads where I discuss religion recently. So i guess what i am saying is that if you choose to engage this guy do it from the perspective that you will never get him to say "I'm wrong" even if you wave smoking gun proof in front of his face.

Good luck and I will try to email you some links later

 

[Bfgrn]

Hi Professor,

I've been getting hammered by some virulent liberals on my FB page and wondered if you could briefly point me to data to counter their claims? I've been following your thread recently and there have been many points which are applicable to my discussions. I have included the primary challenge below. Thanks, Rick.

--------
Read a f***ing history book, because every major accomplishment made in our country is because of liberals. All of the founding fathers were liberals, radical liberals as a matter of fact. The Revolutionary war was fought by liberals. Conservatives of that time were known as Tories and they aided the British. In the Civil War, liberals fought for the Union, and conservatives fought for the Confederates. Liberals are responsible for the end of slavery, voting rights for women and minorities, civil rights for women and minorities, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, 40 hour work week, weekends, minimum wage, workplace safety, and the list goes on and on. Conservatives? They gave us prohibition, McCarthyism, and a long list of unnecessary wars that have cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of our soldiers. For these reasons and more, I am proud to call myself a liberal, and am disgusted by those of you who are too ignorant to realize you are on the wrong side of history.

WOW! I forgot this thread even existed. ok let me have a look...I have to head to work so I don't have a great deal of time to gather research for you. My first reaction to the argument above is that your opponent is confusing the terms of the day with their modern equivalent. For example, he is completely correct that the Tories who supported the British were considered "conservative" and the revolutionaries were considered "liberal". But those labels in the late 18th century meant something different than they do today. Back then they were really more focused on the degree of rebelliousness then in regard to any political platform of beliefs. Certainly liberals today are far more rebellious then conservatives, but that rebelliousness in the 18th century does not imply that "liberals" then would agree with high taxation, big government, pro-choice viewpoints, etc. In fact there's no way they would agree with the first two because that's exactly what they were rebelling against. Abortion...as I said in the OP (years ago) who knows how they would feel. There is some documentation on an abortion stance by John Jay I believe but it's scarce. But indeed their meaning changed very quickly after gaining independence. I would probably point to the John Quincy Adams and Andrew Jackson administrations where "liberal" and "conservative" really started to take on new meanings and frankly it probably happened far earlier...probably at the moment they had to start thinking about running the government instead of fighting the British.

His arguments about the civil war, slavery, racism, etc...he could not be more wrong. The KKK for example was considered the militant wing of the Democratic Party at the time. It was the Republicans who fought for civil rights. Democrats get the credit because it was signed by Johnson (even though he didn't want to sign it) but it was northern Republicans who were pushing it. Liberals like to claim that after the civil right movement the two parties flipped and liberals became conservative and conservatives became liberals, but while some Democrats left the party and joined the Republicans it was far from the 180 degree flip they insist it was.

Social security, minimum wage, etc...yeah that was liberal but I am not sure those are things to be terribly proud of. The founding fathers sure as hell wouldn't have endorsed them.

He's got us on prohibition and McCarthyism for sure but his statement about Republicans being responsible for countless wars is ridiculous compared to the wars the liberals have gotten us into. Somewhere on these boards I did an analysis comparing "Republican wars" with "Democratic wars" and if I recall correctly it's pretty well referenced. I would look for that...it's probably in the history section somewhere.

I will try to email you some links when I have more time.

One thing I can tell you though just by reading your opponents quotes is that arguing with this guy is basically an exercise in futility. I can tell by the tenacity of his comments that you will never get him to acknowledge any view other than his own. For example his point about the wars Republicans have created is so dead wrong it's laughable but even if you wave the statistics right under his nose he will deny it somehow. I deal with the same things on the threads where I discuss religion recently. So i guess what i am saying is that if you choose to engage this guy do it from the perspective that you will never get him to say "I'm wrong" even if you wave smoking gun proof in front of his face.

Good luck and I will try to email you some links later

Beware of the half-truth. You may have gotten hold of the wrong half.
Seymour Essrog

The two parties did change or switch somewhere between the late 1800's and 1936. Abraham Lincoln was a liberal who came from the Whig Party, not a conservative.

Why Did the Democratic and Republican Parties Switch Platforms? | Democrats & Republicans

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was proposed by President Kennedy, and pushed for very hard by Lyndon Johnson. Republicans like Everett Dirksen certainly helped pass the bill, but you are trying to twist history. Support for the bill was divided along the same lines as the Civil War.

By party and region

Note: "Southern", as used in this section, refers to members of Congress from the eleven states that made up the Confederate States of America in the American Civil War. "Northern" refers to members from the other 39 states, regardless of the geographic location of those states.

The original House version:

Southern Democrats: 7–87 (7%–93%)
Southern Republicans: 0–10 (0%–100%)

Northern Democrats: 145-9 (94%–6%)
Northern Republicans: 138-24 (85%–15%)

The Senate version:

Southern Democrats: 1–20 (5%–95%)
Southern Republicans: 0–1 (0%–100%)
Northern Democrats: 45-1 (98%–2%)
Northern Republicans: 27-5 (84%–16%)

 

[RickL]

This is what I've put together so far. I thought to use your discussion of the Founding Fathers from this thread but wasn't sure how to reference your work.

----------------------------------
What has congress done? Remember it takes BOTH houses to pass a bill. See how many are sitting in the Senate?

List of bills introduced for ONLY the 113th congress. The current term ending 2015-01-01.

List of bills in the 113th United States Congress - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


List of bills passed for ONLY the 113th congress. The current term ending 2015-01-01.

www.congress-summary.com - Laws Passed by the 113th Congress

----------------------------
All of the founding fathers were liberals, radical liberals as a matter of fact. The Revolutionary war was fought by liberals. Conservatives of that time were known as Tories and they aided the British.

------------------------------------

In the Civil War, liberals fought for the Union, and conservatives fought for the Confederates.

Liberals are responsible for the end of slavery,
-----------------------------------------
voting rights for women and minorities, civil rights for women and minorities,

Cloture
Democrats made up exactly two-thirds of the Senate, with 67 of the 100 members. But 21 of those were from southern states. This meant cloture required 22 of the Senate's 33 Republicans to support a vote on the Democrat-sponsored bill. The minority leader, Everett Dirksen, R-Ill., played a pivotal role for the civil rights bill. On June 10, 1964, his substantial efforts in support of the bill culminated in an impassioned appeal to the Senate to support cloture and hold the vote. On this extraordinary occasion, the Senate voted for cloture, 71-29 -- 44 Democrats and 27 Republicans voted in favor. Opposed were 23 Democrats and 6 Republicans.

The Civil Rights Act
On June 19, 1964, the civil rights bill was passed in the Senate, 73-27. Six Republicans and 21 Democrats voted against it. The debate had lasted 83 days and just over 730 hours. Because some changes had been made to the bill, it then returned to the House of Representatives for reconsideration, where it passed, 289 to 126, on July 2. Only six representatives had changed their votes since February. A few hours later President Lyndon B. Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Read more : What Were the Republican and Democratic Votes That Passed the Civil Rights Bill of 1964? | eHow
----------------------------------------
Social Security,

Medicare and Medicaid,

40 hour work week, weekends, minimum wage, workplace safety,
----------------------------------
Conservatives? They gave us

prohibition,

McCarthyism,
---------------------------------
and a long list of unnecessary wars that have cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of our soldiers.

WWI - Pres. - Woodrow Wilson (D), Congress - democrat controlled

WWII - Pres. - Franklin D. Roosevelt (D), Congress - democrat controlled

Korea - Pres. - Harry S. Truman (D), Congress - democrat controlled

Viet Nam - Pres. - Lyndon B. Johnson (D), Congress - democrat controlled

Bosnia/Herzegovina - Pres. - William J. Clinton, Congress - republican controlled

Gulf War - Pres. - George H. W. Bush (R), Congress - democrat controlled

Iraqi War - Pres. George W. Bush (R), Congress - republican/democrat controlled

Afghanistan War - Pres. George W. Bush (R), Congress - republican/democrat controlled

Speaker of the United States House of Representatives - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[francoHFW]

WWII was unnecessary? Read something, Beckbot. LBJ was sick of Vietnam. Nixon lied to be the peace candidate. Reagan's meddling led to Iraq quagmires...Pubs have been the war mongerers since WWII, when they figured out all the money in the military/industrial complex...