Peculiar and undesired effects?

[ErikViking]

The war on terror has its peculiar and undesired effects.

Here is a weird example:

After 9/11 USA put together a list of persons and organisations with possible connections to terrorism. One of those was a bank-like organisation for fundings in Somalia. Three persons (Swedish citizens) in Stockholm worked for this organisation.

UN accepted the list from USA and enforced sanctions according to it. (For the first time sanctions were issued on induviduals). These sanctions meant that all monetary assets should be frozen.

So Sweden, a member of U.N. blocked the personal accounts of these three individuals and let them starve to death. Well, they didn't die. People helped them (thus comitted a crime too by helping possible terrorists).

In a breif time the network was dropped from the list and UN removed the sanctions from two of the individuals. But the third one had a "strange nickname" and FBI hesitated to remove him. So his sanctions are still in effect. (FBI resources had like 40 seconds to evaluate each individual, so I guess it was just a check in the margin that sealed this guys fate)

Sweden follow UN sanctions and this poor fellow can't make a case anywhere, there are no charges of anything and he is not suspected of any crime. But he can't have money! Swedish diplomats law-abiding-into-stupidity are working to change UN policy so that sanctions on individuals should some how be processable. Not the fastet way to go? Also they try to get FBI to remove this guy from the list, without disturbing them too much, - FBI is busy theese days.

Okay, his life is devastated and it is really sad, but I can't help laughing, or at least smiling. Anyone read Kafka? If this happened to me I would go outlaw, - betrayed by my own country! Even convicted terrorists are fed by their captives!

Anyway this is an example of how desicions made in USA spawns to everyday life accross the globe.

 

[Diuretic]

The good old law of unintended consequences. It will happen though, pity it can't be sorted out. Going after the finances of AQ and other associated terrorist organisations after the atrocities was exactly the right thing to do though. You can't buy RPG launchers with monopoly money.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I actually think the current laws don't go far enough to punish those with strange nicknames.

 

[USViking]

A few comments and questions:

1. Kafka had some poor soul in police custody, if I am not mistaken. No Swede
has been in police custody in these cases

2. How long has this been going on?

3. Are you saying the FBI only spent 40 seconds each on these people?

4. If Sweden finds others’ findings mistaken is Sweden really so
powerless to act on its own correct findings?

5. If only three people in a population of 9000k has experienced
“Kafka”, then the odds of false arrest are low. Very low. Very, very low.
I hasten to add I wish they could be zero everywhere.

6. If this happened to me I would NOT “go outlaw”. I would try to
get back to normal life.

7. Any mistaken accusation arising from US decisions should be reversed.

8. We are now embarked on World War IV. More mistakes will be made
throughout the war.

9. What would you do?

 

[ErikViking]

A few comments and questions:
1. Kafka had some poor soul in police custody, if I am not mistaken. No Swede
has been in police custody in these cases

Well this mans situation is actually not quite like that of the Kafka story, because everyone knows what is the reason behind those events, it is 9/11. And no one has gone to jail or even been accused of anything.

2. How long has this been going on?

Since 9/11. (Roughly)

3. Are you saying the FBI only spent 40 seconds each on these people?

Just about, this is from FBI standpoint just a simple classifaction of potential threats. They don't investigate this, and why should they?

4. If Sweden finds others’ findings mistaken is Sweden really so
powerless to act on its own correct findings?

Yes... sadly enough it seems so. By stubbornly working in a diplomatic routine Swedens foreign ministry tries to rectify the glitch in the system, not his situation. I think some similar case in Canada quite swiftly got solved domestically.

5. If only three people in a population of 9000k has experienced
“Kafka”, then the odds of false arrest are low. Very low. Very, very low.
I hasten to add I wish they could be zero everywhere.

As I said this is a most peculiar effect of FBI proactive actions. Maybe I should have added rare? It is an unique combination of critical-situation-rationalization vs Swedish minute interest in following some protocol.

6. If this happened to me I would NOT “go outlaw”. I would try to
get back to normal life.

Hah! You don't get it! You wouldn't have a life. His own country denies him this possibility. If his own wife fed him she would actually be helping a possible terrorist, thus comitting a crime. (Hypthetically, - no such actions has been taken - but from government point of view this fellow should starve to death.)

7. Any mistaken accusation arising from US decisions should be reversed.

USA hasn't accused him of anything, there is no place to complain. I'm most certainly not holding USA responsible for this. (Although, because of the poor guys situation it would be nice if FBI just crossed his name over - I think that is what Swedish diplomats are trying to ask in some sort of polite way).

8. We are now embarked on World War IV. More mistakes will be made
throughout the war.

No doubt.

9. What would you do?

Don't know exactly. Think for yourself, one morning our credit card is not working, you can't go to the bank, you can't have any wellfare check or whatever and you don't get to work. No one is allowed to give you money if you beg. Foreign Legion suddenly seems like an option.

As I said, I thought it might be interesting to see how actions taken in the USA also affect everyday lives of people half way across the globe. Didn't you find this even remotley interesting?

 

[ErikViking]

9. What would you do?

Maybe I misunderstood your point 9. I would naturally give this guy his job back until someone had any evidence whatsoever about terrorist connections. Two years of starvation seems good enough punishment for having the wrong nickname!

 

[Diuretic]

Stand back - Vikings at work! Wouldn't want to get hit by a misplaced battle axe :shocked:

 

[USViking]

Well this mans situation is actually not quite like that of the Kafka story, because everyone knows what is the reason behind those events, it is 9/11. And no one has gone to jail or even been accused of anything.

Yah- they were all free, no bail required, and their friends
made sure they were fed, not actually at all like that of the
Kafka story.




Since 9/11. (Roughly)
Four years, eight months, huh?- all because Sweden
cannot protect its innocents against the US and The UN?




Just about, this is from FBI standpoint just a simple classifaction of potential threats. They don't investigate this, and why should they?

If the FBI did not investigate it fully, then it should have,
and I would think Sweden would have some freedom
to do what is right, if the FBI does wrong.




Yes... sadly enough it seems so. By stubbornly working in a diplomatic routine Swedens foreign ministry tries to rectify the glitch in the system, not his situation. I think some similar case in Canada quite swiftly got solved domestically.

So, now all this time after 9/11 exactly one Swede still has his bank
account frozen?

Surely, if he is innocent, Sweden can carry the day for the poor fellow,
before he goes outlaw?




As I said this is a most peculiar effect of FBI proactive actions. Maybe I should have added rare? It is an unique combination of critical-situation-rationalization vs Swedish minute interest in following some protocol.
So FBI miscarriages of justice are rare?

Thanks, I hope they become more rare.




Hah! You don't get it! You wouldn't have a life. His own country denies him this possibility.
I get it exactly: “Outlaw” is a Common Law term going back centuries
for someone who anyone can be killed with impunity, exactly the opposite
of normal life.

And I do not think it is a matter of us denying Islam a possibility,
I think it is the opposite: Muslims deny us a possibility. It is up
to them to conform, and the sooner you and they realize it,
the better.




If his own wife fed him she would actually be helping a possible terrorist, thus comitting a crime. (Hypthetically, - no such actions has been taken - but from government point of view this fellow should starve to death.)
Get back with me when you can find a single Swede malnourished
because of counter terror.


USA hasn't accused him of anything, there is no place to complain. I'm most certainly not holding USA responsible for this. (Although, because of the poor guys situation it would be nice if FBI just crossed his name over - I think that is what Swedish diplomats are trying to ask in some sort of polite way).
Thanks for “certainly” not holding us responsible after all , in contradiction
of your threadstarting post:

“…UN accepted the list from USA and enforced sanctions according to it…

But the third one had a "strange nickname" and FBI hesitated to remove him.

Also they try to get FBI to remove this guy from the list, without disturbing them too much, - FBI is busy theese days…”

I guess it’s someone else's fucking fault, after all.

 

[USViking]

Stand back - Vikings at work! Wouldn't want to get hit by a misplaced battle axe :shocked:

From the fury of the Northmen, etc.

 

[USViking]

Maybe I misunderstood your point 9. I would naturally give this guy his job back until someone had any evidence whatsoever about terrorist connections. Two years of starvation seems good enough punishment for having the wrong nickname!

So he starved, really?

Get real.

 

[ErikViking]

So he starved, really?

Get real.

Yes, he died yesterday. By starvation. No, he didn't. Ofcourse he is fed. But his own country doesn't see to it. This is the undesired and peculiar side of this story. What I would have hoped to be more of an interest is this:

The war against terror has a very strong support. If this guy had been a real terrorist he would have been effectivley incapacitated by emforcement of the anti-terrorist law. Somehow I get the feeling you think this was an attempt to show negative effects on my country by actions from yours. It wasn't.

But obviously this wasn't interesting - my mistake.

 

[USViking]

Yes, he died yesterday. By starvation. No, he didn't. Ofcourse he is fed. But his own country doesn't see to it. This is the undesired and peculiar side of this story. What I would have hoped to be more of an interest is this:

The war against terror has a very strong support. If this guy had been a real terrorist he would have been effectivley incapacitated by emforcement of the anti-terrorist law. Somehow I get the feeling you think this was an attempt to show negative effects on my country by actions from yours. It wasn't.

But obviously this wasn't interesting - my mistake.

Your posts on the three presumably innocent men
was interesting.

I sincerely hope we can learn from our mistakes,
and so make less of them.

 

[ErikViking]

Your posts on the three presumably innocent men
was interesting.

I sincerely hope we can learn from our mistakes,
and so make less of them.

So do I. And what needs to be learn is that terrorism must be fought by every country as hard as possible. Only if the western countries stay loyal we can prevent terrorists from having safe places to withdraw to. (Sure these kind of things are bound to happen, but this guy is atleast alive and kicking. He'll probably get rich by writing a book after this anyways.)