PixieStix
Platinum Member
- Apr 2, 2009
- 15,085
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Peace
- Thread starter Daniyel
- Start date
TemplarKormac
Political Atheist
Well, Israel successfully fought off an incursion by six other countries bent on her destruction, I'm sure Israel can handle it. Besides, it beats enduring the hells of war, doesn't it?
At this point there is a lot of hatred and mistrust on both sides - Gazans towards Israel and Israel toward Gazans. In an interview I heard recently - Gazans do recognize that Hamas is responsible for all these troubles, but because it's Israel bombing their homes and such - they blame Israel and their anger is currently focused on Israel. How do you overcome this on both sides? In addition, there's the demographic issue of adding 1.8 million people to Israel who are not Jewish.
Kondor3
Cafeteria Centrist
Reconfigure present day stretch of the Eastern Med known as Lebanon - Israel.
Big northern piece for Muslims.
Big southern piece for Jews
Maybe a small middle piece for what's left of the Christians of the region, as a buffer between the two.
Population shifts - akin to the Hindu-Muslim population shifts when India and Pakistan split.
The Jews get Jerusalem - giving pilgrimage access in a controlled and mutually agreeable fashion.
Or some other broad, sweeping shuffling of the map, that could be made to work.
It's not gonna happen, of course, but that might just do it, so long as the Muslims can be made to understand that Jerusalem means more to the Jews than it means to the Muslims.
None of this International City baloney... that'll never fly... and, given the Jews' older claim, and the fact that the Muslims already have other higher-valued Holy Cities (Mecca, Medinah), they're just gonna have to let the Jews have one, too, and get over it.
Big northern piece for Muslims.
Big southern piece for Jews
Maybe a small middle piece for what's left of the Christians of the region, as a buffer between the two.
Population shifts - akin to the Hindu-Muslim population shifts when India and Pakistan split.
The Jews get Jerusalem - giving pilgrimage access in a controlled and mutually agreeable fashion.
Or some other broad, sweeping shuffling of the map, that could be made to work.
It's not gonna happen, of course, but that might just do it, so long as the Muslims can be made to understand that Jerusalem means more to the Jews than it means to the Muslims.
None of this International City baloney... that'll never fly... and, given the Jews' older claim, and the fact that the Muslims already have other higher-valued Holy Cities (Mecca, Medinah), they're just gonna have to let the Jews have one, too, and get over it.
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TemplarKormac
Political Atheist
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teddyearp
Gold Member
Danny, great idea. I started a thread like this weeks ago.
It is a very complex and difficult situation to say the least. I truly believe that the rank and file Palestinian at least in Gaza does not want what it happening now. Neither does the rank and file Israeli.
However, for any peace to begin, both sides have to reel in their respective extremists. Two paragraphs:
For the Palestinians, it would be for them to throw off the years of hate and terrorist leadership, i.e., Hamas etc., which from what I am reading, will be next to impossible. But if they did and actually wanted peace and elected leaders who are actually willing to accept Israel and a two state solution; well that is their only real hope.
For the Israelis it would be for them to freeze all new settlements in the West Bank, and also thwart the Jewish extremists who build a shack out of simple boards and OSB to create a 'new' settlement somewhere else in the West Bank and defend it with firearms; as well as the throw off the hate shown to Palestinians near the 'settlements' by some of the extreme Jews in the West Bank.
I am sure that my post will not be very popular. I wish that the latter paragraph could happen and then even take down the wall; but it cannot happen until the Israelis feel safe from their neighbor Palestinians, safe that they have thrown off the yoke of hate and the desire to become martyrs; and have actually elected leaders that they stand by who are truly willing to work for a two state peaceful solution. And that is were the former paragraph comes into play.
If my dream world of the two paragraphs came true, then maybe it could all work out. Even perhaps a (and this will get me into much trouble) negotiation of relinquishing some of the West Bank to each other. And since I am thinking out of the box and 'dreaming' one could say to the other, "Tear down this wall."
Well Danny, you wanted something that was not full of the usual rhetoric, there is mine.
It is a very complex and difficult situation to say the least. I truly believe that the rank and file Palestinian at least in Gaza does not want what it happening now. Neither does the rank and file Israeli.
However, for any peace to begin, both sides have to reel in their respective extremists. Two paragraphs:
For the Palestinians, it would be for them to throw off the years of hate and terrorist leadership, i.e., Hamas etc., which from what I am reading, will be next to impossible. But if they did and actually wanted peace and elected leaders who are actually willing to accept Israel and a two state solution; well that is their only real hope.
For the Israelis it would be for them to freeze all new settlements in the West Bank, and also thwart the Jewish extremists who build a shack out of simple boards and OSB to create a 'new' settlement somewhere else in the West Bank and defend it with firearms; as well as the throw off the hate shown to Palestinians near the 'settlements' by some of the extreme Jews in the West Bank.
I am sure that my post will not be very popular. I wish that the latter paragraph could happen and then even take down the wall; but it cannot happen until the Israelis feel safe from their neighbor Palestinians, safe that they have thrown off the yoke of hate and the desire to become martyrs; and have actually elected leaders that they stand by who are truly willing to work for a two state peaceful solution. And that is were the former paragraph comes into play.
If my dream world of the two paragraphs came true, then maybe it could all work out. Even perhaps a (and this will get me into much trouble) negotiation of relinquishing some of the West Bank to each other. And since I am thinking out of the box and 'dreaming' one could say to the other, "Tear down this wall."
Well Danny, you wanted something that was not full of the usual rhetoric, there is mine.
teddyearp
Gold Member
A side note and off topic. I find it odd that you and I who are pro Israel have proposed such threads. Why haven't the other pro Palestine posters tried this?
- Thread starter
- #29
I'm glad we both share the same perspective.
-But-
Considering all Israeli Arabs *claimed their ID by Supreme court/"borders-lucky" that build illegally in the West Bank and allowed to enter Israel that's unacceptable by security reasons, even if we will have peace with the Palestinians,majority of the crime in Israel committed by Palestinians/Israeli Arabs plus for security reasons although Israeli-Jordanian affairs are great for now, Israel cannot put the entire shore to risk and also consider that every time you will have new radicals, even the Swedish got their own radicals so this situation is unacceptable.
The Settlements is not a big issue as Abbas keep saying since the West Bank is like a maze of walls and Israel evacuating every day new settlements (Israelis only) and this is where most of the Israeli extremist anger would turn to.
I think it pretty much put the entire West Bank under Israeli territory forever.
I think two state solution is very nice idea but it is just impossible, not with the growth of population on both sides.
Hamas/Fatah - Must be out of any consideration, non-negotiable peace with them.
I think the best way to force the peace and specially now when the affairs with Egypt raised, is simply to talk Egypt about Rafah border, allowing the Gazans to be Palestinians and let Israeli-Egyptian coop to deal with the rest, Egypt and Israel both can guard each side of the border while Gaza would remain under Egyptian control, the Gazans would be Egyptians (Al Masri is The Egyptian - common Palestinian surname) and this is a first step toward the Gazans, the West Bank citizens are later to discuss, Egypt could establish a seaport in the Gaza beach to aid the economy.
Within the lists of demands Hamas sent for 10 year ceasefire they wrote about 'Recognition of Hamas as the Palestinian government" in other words Hamas and Fatah (Abbas) are still in struggle for the lead, and I think Abbas is just useless and incapable of leading, Arafat was but I thank god every day he died, and basically the Palestinians would always ask for anything they can get including Jerusalem..(really? -_-)
I think I'll write it down better in a new thread since this one is pretty messed up and I probably forgot many stuff, but I was thinking about it for a while.
Indeependent
Diamond Member
- Nov 19, 2013
- 73,633
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Give me a break!
There's no way at least half of the population of Aza wasn't involved in constructing all of those super sophisticated tunnels going MILES into Israel and Egypt.
And why the hell does Aza have 65,000 clerks working for their government.
Think it has SOMETHING to do with the tunnels?
Wake up, already!
- Thread starter
- #31
Please..save it for somewhere else, lets try to stick to the opening post shall we?
TemplarKormac
Political Atheist
Given how Islam views women, that would be incredibly difficult.
Kondor3
Cafeteria Centrist
Ouch
Kondor3
Cafeteria Centrist
You have two sides, one very strong, one comparatively weak, which locked horns many decades ago and which cannot back down from their own range of demands.
Old solutions seem to be largely off the table and no longer perceived as realistic possibilities.
Peace will not come until one of the following happens...
1. both sides have a change of heart, simultaneously, and cooperate
2. one side or the other is relocated
3. one side of the other is destroyed
4. the players in the region voluntarily re-draw the maps to give everybody a taste
5. the world (UN, backed by its big-gun members) forces a solution upon both parties
6. divine intervention resolves the issue
My guess is that pigs will fly, before we see (1), (4) or (6).
If true, that leaves (2), (3) and (5).
I'm sure that's (rightfully) viewed as cynical or skeptical.
It's also quite probably highly realistic.
Old solutions seem to be largely off the table and no longer perceived as realistic possibilities.
Peace will not come until one of the following happens...
1. both sides have a change of heart, simultaneously, and cooperate
2. one side or the other is relocated
3. one side of the other is destroyed
4. the players in the region voluntarily re-draw the maps to give everybody a taste
5. the world (UN, backed by its big-gun members) forces a solution upon both parties
6. divine intervention resolves the issue
My guess is that pigs will fly, before we see (1), (4) or (6).
If true, that leaves (2), (3) and (5).
I'm sure that's (rightfully) viewed as cynical or skeptical.
It's also quite probably highly realistic.
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