Pastor arrested for holding home Bible study

[Ariux]

If it weren't for all the Liberals and God Damned Jews at war with Christianity, "religion" wouldn't even enter into this. It's not the government's business whether this is a Church or a Bible Study. Zoning laws should be based completely on secular criteria.

 

[hortysir]

It does appear that the pastor from the OP muddied the waters by going through the process of getting his group made into a church after the city told him that they were going to be treated as a church.

So what about this case? Home: No place for Bible study

We debated this case on another board, and this is what came of it, in the end:

Bible Group Gets Apology from the County
Reported by: Elex Michaelson

San Diego County has apologized to a pastor and his wife who were cited and told to get a permit for a weekly Bible study session held at their Bonita home.

In a letter dated Wednesday, the county's chief administrative officer Walter Ekard said the citation should never have been issued and a permit is not required.

Ekard blamed the mistake on "unclear language in the zoning ordinance." He also said the county is taking steps to improve its policies and procedures.

In April, David Jones and his wife Mary were told they could be fined $100 to $1,000 if they didn't comply with county codes that prohibit holding religious assemblies without a major-use permit.

 

[Againsheila]

It does appear that the pastor from the OP muddied the waters by going through the process of getting his group made into a church after the city told him that they were going to be treated as a church.

So what about this case? Home: No place for Bible study

We debated this case on another board, and this is what came of it, in the end:

Bible Group Gets Apology from the County
Reported by: Elex Michaelson

San Diego County has apologized to a pastor and his wife who were cited and told to get a permit for a weekly Bible study session held at their Bonita home.

In a letter dated Wednesday, the county's chief administrative officer Walter Ekard said the citation should never have been issued and a permit is not required.

Ekard blamed the mistake on "unclear language in the zoning ordinance." He also said the county is taking steps to improve its policies and procedures.

In April, David Jones and his wife Mary were told they could be fined $100 to $1,000 if they didn't comply with county codes that prohibit holding religious assemblies without a major-use permit.

But some idiot got it up his ass that Christians should be punished...

Wonder if they would have sited a couple for having Koran study classes in their home. Nope, I don't wonder at all, I know they never would have approached Muslims for that behavior.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

And it still APPEARS likely or at least possible that it was based on the Bible study activity, and that a nonreligious activity would have gotten a pass.

Which still has nothing to do with the claim of a Free Exercise Clause violation, however ill-conceived, capricious, or inconsistent the City’s regulatory policies might be.

So what about this case? Home: No place for Bible study

Same situation: one may not request an exemption from public law or policy based on religious practice.

“Do you have a regular weekly meeting in your home? Do you sing? Do you say ‘amen’?” the official reportedly asked. “Do you say, ‘Praise the Lord’?”

And people say that there's not anti-christian bigotry in this country.

There is no evidence the ordinance is based on ‘bigotry’ against Christianity or any other religion.

 

[Amelia]

It does appear that the pastor from the OP muddied the waters by going through the process of getting his group made into a church after the city told him that they were going to be treated as a church.

So what about this case? Home: No place for Bible study

We debated this case on another board, and this is what came of it, in the end:

Bible Group Gets Apology from the County
Reported by: Elex Michaelson

San Diego County has apologized to a pastor and his wife who were cited and told to get a permit for a weekly Bible study session held at their Bonita home.

In a letter dated Wednesday, the county's chief administrative officer Walter Ekard said the citation should never have been issued and a permit is not required.

Ekard blamed the mistake on "unclear language in the zoning ordinance." He also said the county is taking steps to improve its policies and procedures.

In April, David Jones and his wife Mary were told they could be fined $100 to $1,000 if they didn't comply with county codes that prohibit holding religious assemblies without a major-use permit.

Thanks for the update. Good for them!

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The article Pingy linked to even has the name of his church. Harvest Community Church.

So?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

After two years of relative calm, the feud between the City of Phoenix and the Salmans escalated when they erected a 2,000 square foot building in their backyard. Mr Salman said he applied for and was granted all the appropriate permits and the building has passed a city inspection.

‘At that point we took our Bible study from our living room – and we moved it into that building,’ he said. ‘We started worshiping in that building every weekend.’

However, Miss Hill, the chief assistant city prosecutor, said Salman has ‘mischaracterized the facts’ of the permit. She said that he was given a permit to convert a garage into a game room, not a church or anything else for that matter.

Father of six faces 60 days behind bars for hosting Bible study in his OWN home against city rules | Mail Online

Maybe he doesn't know that lying is a sin.

it's more fun for them to try to make this a religious issue.

he's being treated like anyone else holding gatherings.

but i guess that doesn't suit some people.

Are you saying that if you had a large family reunion the police would come out to your house, round everyone up, stick them in your living room, and then search the entire property for 90 minutes? Is that really your position, or are you just defending this from a knee jerk perspective against anything conservative,

Phoenix Police Raid a Local Pastor’s Home For Holding Church Services - Page 1 - News - Phoenix - Phoenix New Times

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Cassy Treat built his Mega Church on Business zoned property. There was nothing the City of Federal Way could do to stop him. So how is it that this man can't have his church? Is it the amount of money involved? Just curious. We lost all those tax dollars, seems to me the tax dollars for a residence would be insignificant in comparison.

If it was a church, then he wasn't following the laws connected with church buildings - such as having fire exits and wheelchair ramps.

Sounds like he was denying it was a church -- which might have flown in 2007 when they first started harassing him for having people over to his livingroom. But it didn't fly after 2008 after he submitted paperwork calling the group a church.

IIUC.

Nice try.

Here is what the code actually says in Phoenix.

International Building Code 303.1 - Assembly Group A: Occupancy includes use of a building or structure for the gathering together of persons for purposes such as civic, social or religious functions, recreation, food or drink - A room or space used for assembly purposes by less than 50 persons and accessory to another occupancy shall be included as a part of that occupancy.

Interestingly enough, unless you can prove that more than 50 people were regularly attending the service he is actually in compliance.

 

[Ariux]

So what about this case? Home: No place for Bible study

Same situation: one may not request an exemption from public law or policy based on religious practice.

Shithead, I don't think he wants, based on religious practice, an exemption from public law. I think he wants exemption from a public law that is based on religious practice.

And people say that there's not anti-christian bigotry in this country.

There is no evidence the ordinance is based on ‘bigotry’ against Christianity or any other religion.

...said the bigot.

 

[Againsheila]

Father of six faces 60 days behind bars for hosting Bible study in his OWN home against city rules | Mail Online

Maybe he doesn't know that lying is a sin.

it's more fun for them to try to make this a religious issue.

he's being treated like anyone else holding gatherings.

but i guess that doesn't suit some people.

Are you saying that if you had a large family reunion the police would come out to your house, round everyone up, stick them in your living room, and then search the entire property for 90 minutes? Is that really your position, or are you just defending this from a knee jerk perspective against anything conservative,

Phoenix Police Raid a Local Pastor’s Home For Holding Church Services - Page 1 - News - Phoenix - Phoenix New Times

"In the 12 years I've been a police officer, I've never been on an administrative search warrant like this, okay?" one officer told the Salmans that day, according to a videotape of the incident. "They had to take it to this level, which I've never seen before."

Even the cops knew it was wrong...I don't get the people on here who think it was okay.

 

[Cecilie1200]

As I recall it was a 400 sq ft barn on a 20 acre parcel.

Of course if you ARE concerned about zoning and crowds, then the party in the backyard has to be shut down too.

Quite true. I know people who have 20+ friends over every weekend to drink and hang out, and as long as they keep the noise down, the city feels no need to start arresting people and invoking "zoning laws" and "fire hazards".

 

[Cecilie1200]

Religious freedom does not mean exemption from all rules and regulations.
Churches are defined and subject to zoning laws, same as any other building.
He was holding regular meetings in his home for the purpose of relgious services. This makes it legally a church.
There were complaints from the neighbors as far as his parishoners and parking.
He applied to turn a garage into a game room and was approved. Instead he turned into a building specifically meant for worship services and had a sign usually associated with churches outside. It is a church.
He followed pretty much none of the safety and building requirements for a church.

The outrage is misplace, it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with zoning laws and building regulations.

By that logic, if I have a group of friends over to my house for drinks every Friday night, that would make my house "legally a bar". And I frequently have complaints about the parking of my neighbors' visitors, but I don't notice anyone going to jail over it.

Horseshit. The government has no business making any sort of law where they can and can't practice their religion, nor does it have any business making laws about what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes . . . which I feel certain I've heard liberals spouting many times, in connection to activities they LIKE.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

As I recall it was a 400 sq ft barn on a 20 acre parcel.

Of course if you ARE concerned about zoning and crowds, then the party in the backyard has to be shut down too.

Quite true. I know people who have 20+ friends over every weekend to drink and hang out, and as long as they keep the noise down, the city feels no need to start arresting people and invoking "zoning laws" and "fire hazards".

Try that in a residential family zone in Baton Rouge. Its not possible unless everyone walks, because you aren't allowed to park on the street, and you may only park in your front yard if the surface is durable. Plus owners are not allowed to rent a home to any group of people where there is more than a single person un-related to the rest. I used to live i such a neighborhood, and although the parking pigs never actually did anything, I was consistently nagged by the neighbors and threatened with enforcement (mostly in the form of cowardly anonymous notes) so that me, my brother, and my cousin, who all lived there, wound up with our 3 cars lined up on the driveway, having to bother each other to move them when needed.

Of course this is all in the lily white Romney voting areas of Baton Rouge where they prize individual liberty.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So does clogging the streets and every available parking place in a residential neighborhood constitute infringement on the rights of others?

I assume the cars park on his property, not the street. And, a half-dozen-or-so extra cars moving down the road once a week is insignificant.

But what residential neighborhood residence has room to park a large number of cars? Unless it is in the country which of course would not annoy the neighbors. So I imagine the parking problem was the signal that the gatherings were happening on a regular basis.

I didn't notice the article saying a word about parking. I think a lot of people are making assumptions and reading into it what they want to see.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

By that logic, if I have a group of friends over to my house for drinks every Friday night, that would make my house "legally a bar".

You would have to be selling the drinks at least, and you may have to be selling for profit for it to be a bar where you live.

Horseshit. The government has no business making any sort of law where they can and can't practice their religion, nor does it have any business making laws about what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes . . . which I feel certain I've heard liberals spouting many times, in connection to activities they LIKE.

If its a building open to the public - the People do have the right to limit its use. If they are prayer meetings of a private nature, where anyone from the street can't just walk in, then yeah, you're right, that's a drastic overreach.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Father of six faces 60 days behind bars for hosting Bible study in his OWN home against city rules | Mail Online

Maybe he doesn't know that lying is a sin.

Arrest is out of line, a citation by Code Enforcement is an appropriate action. He wasn't arrested for holding a Bible study, he was arrested for repeated violations of city fire codes. Still, too harsh a remedy. Citation, hearing, possible lien, handles this type of non compliance, at least in Florida.

So if you have a party in your house you must get a special permit or get cited for violating fire codes?

Seems like perhaps the fire codes don't count if you only violate them one time. Perhaps you can only get killed in a fire if you get together regularly?

 

[Cecilie1200]

He broke zoning law. He had permission to turn the garage into a games room, not a church, which is what this building was. He is welcome to hold Bible study in his home as long as he obeys the law next time.

Oh, gosh, that's what we need: input from someone who knows jack shit about our country and its laws.

Maybe your pissant country issues specific permits for specific uses of home additions, I have no idea. And unlike you, I'm not arrogant enough to presume to join an Australian message board and start gassing about it. Arizona, however, just wants to know about construction specifications, ventilation, crap like that. Whether or not you're planning to hold Bible studies - or book clubs, quilting bees, Girl Scout groups, etc. - in your game room does not appear on the forms.

 

[Cecilie1200]

A Bible study group is not a church.

His garage was basically set up as a church, and he broke zoning laws. This has nothing to do with his religion.

It's not a garage any more, twerp. It's a game room. And how do YOU know how it's set up? Have you been there? Seen pictures? Certainly the article didn't say anything about "how it's set up".

 

[Truthseeker420]

Excellent! If us libs had our way, religion would be made illegal.

Arizona is controlled by "conservatives".

 

[Cecilie1200]

As I recall it was a 400 sq ft barn on a 20 acre parcel.

Of course if you ARE concerned about zoning and crowds, then the party in the backyard has to be shut down too.

Quite true. I know people who have 20+ friends over every weekend to drink and hang out, and as long as they keep the noise down, the city feels no need to start arresting people and invoking "zoning laws" and "fire hazards".

Try that in a residential family zone in Baton Rouge. Its not possible unless everyone walks, because you aren't allowed to park on the street, and you may only park in your front yard if the surface is durable. Plus owners are not allowed to rent a home to any group of people where there is more than a single person un-related to the rest. I used to live i such a neighborhood, and although the parking pigs never actually did anything, I was consistently nagged by the neighbors and threatened with enforcement (mostly in the form of cowardly anonymous notes) so that me, my brother, and my cousin, who all lived there, wound up with our 3 cars lined up on the driveway, having to bother each other to move them when needed.

Of course this is all in the lily white Romney voting areas of Baton Rouge where they prize individual liberty.

Perhaps that's why I - and the good pastor - live in conservative Arizona, rather than liberal-run Louisiana: because we'd like at least a shot at having our civil liberties respected.

Now please say something that's relevant to the story, because Baton Rouge ain't it.