Pastor arrested for holding home Bible study

[Amelia]

What if a woman has a quilting circle at her home every weekend?

The city should shut that down unless she obtains a commercial and public use permit?

If she builds a 2,000 square foot building to do it in and erects a sign advertising it then yeah, probably.

I'm surprised the guy doesn't want to declare himself a church and get the tax benefits.

There was a sign advertising it?

 

[Foxfyre]

Excellent! If us libs had our way, religion would be made illegal.

For us conservatives, only SOME religions should be made illegal.

Where the hell have you been George? I've missed you. I was beginning to think I was going to have to recruit another favorite liberal.

But back to the OP. I have been struggling with this one. In my heart of hearts, I 100% support religious liberty including the right of people to practice their religion freely wherever they can do so without infringing on the rights of others.

So does clogging the streets and every available parking place in a residential neighborhood constitute infringement on the rights of others? In my heart of hearts, I know I shrug off the occasional party that results in cars parked everywhere. Those are infrequent occurrences and certainly I can put up with that once in awhile. But two or three times a week every single week? I can't say I would want that or that it would not infringe on my enjoyment of my own property.

My solution to this dilemma would be to allow the Bible study but require those participating to take public transportation or otherwise not clog the street on a regular basis.

I'm sure there is a flaw in my reasoning and I admit I haven't through it through in great detail.

 

[hortysir]

What if a woman has a quilting circle at her home every weekend?

The city should shut that down unless she obtains a commercial and public use permit?

According to this:

"It came down to zoning and proper permitting. Anytime you are holding a gathering of people continuously as he does, we have concerns about people being able to exit the facility properly in case there is a fire."

Yes.


Apparently, the duly elected officials in that area made the law for a reason.
If the majority are opposed, they should lobby to change it or elect officials that will.

Until then?

 

[Intense]

Pastor arrested for holding home Bible study



Other links with different perspectives are welcome.

The other side of the story
The Salmans have been gathering in the home since 2005, but in 2007 they did receive a notice from the City of Phoenix that Bible studies and other church-like activities are not permitted in a residence unless the property is converted to an A3 occupancy, which allows commercial and public use. Michael Salmon argued his case pointing out that their gatherings are not opened to the public. Just like in the Bible, gatherings were among believers who knew one another. It was part of body life. With only 15-20 people meeting, Salmon argued that the code was unconstitutional. They tried to take steps to meet the requirements, but did not want to become a commercial entity

Pastor arrested for holding home Bible study - Atlanta Bible study | Examiner.com

He needs to fight it. 15-20 people. Imagine having to get special Zoning for a Family Gathering or a Birthday Party. Stepping on Religious Liberty like that is shameful.

 

[Amelia]

What if a woman has a quilting circle at her home every weekend?

The city should shut that down unless she obtains a commercial and public use permit?

According to this:

"It came down to zoning and proper permitting. Anytime you are holding a gathering of people continuously as he does, we have concerns about people being able to exit the facility properly in case there is a fire."

Yes.


Apparently, the duly elected officials in that area made the law for a reason.
If the majority are opposed, they should lobby to change it or elect officials that will.

Until then?

Silenced?

Well, I learned a different tradition.

When someone is claiming you need to obtain commercial and public use permits for private, noncommercial meetings, you fight it if it's important to you.

And if you suspect that the same bureaucrats would in fact not shut down a bridge club or a quilting circle, then you fight it harder.

You don't wait until a majority of people are willing to stand up with you and say that the bureaucrats are wrong to call your private group public and your noncommercial group commercial. You follow every recourse you can. That includes courts and media.

 

[Ariux]

Religious freedom does not mean exemption from all rules and regulations.
Churches are defined and subject to zoning laws, same as any other building.
He was holding regular meetings in his home for the purpose of relgious services. This makes it legally a church.

Legally a church? Are you Commie or a God Damned Jew? If he were inviting a bunch of friends over every Monday for the purpose of drinking and watching football, that would be okay? But, if he's worshiping God, that makes him a criminal? And, you call that religious freedom?

 

[Ravi]

What if a woman has a quilting circle at her home every weekend?

The city should shut that down unless she obtains a commercial and public use permit?

If she builds a 2,000 square foot building to do it in and erects a sign advertising it then yeah, probably.

I'm surprised the guy doesn't want to declare himself a church and get the tax benefits.

There was a sign advertising it?

A huge cross erected by the street.

 

[hortysir]

What if a woman has a quilting circle at her home every weekend?

The city should shut that down unless she obtains a commercial and public use permit?

According to this:

"It came down to zoning and proper permitting. Anytime you are holding a gathering of people continuously as he does, we have concerns about people being able to exit the facility properly in case there is a fire."

Yes.


Apparently, the duly elected officials in that area made the law for a reason.
If the majority are opposed, they should lobby to change it or elect officials that will.

Until then?

Silenced?

Well, I learned a different tradition.

When someone is claiming you need to obtain commercial and public use permits for private, noncommercial meetings, you fight it if it's important to you.

And if you suspect that the same bureaucrats would in fact not shut down a bridge club or a quilting circle, then you fight it harder.

You don't wait until a majority of people are willing to stand up and say that the bureaucrats are wrong to call your private group public and your noncommercial group commercial. You follow every recourse you can. That includes courts and media.

The smiley was meant to say, "I don't know what else to say" not "Silence"
Apologies.

The zoning office had objections because it was a regularly recurring event.
Not a birthday party or reunion, Intense.


I don;t blame the Pastor for wanting to fight it. I DOES sound extreme.
I'm not arguing that.
He SHOULD use every avenue available to challenge it.

I'm not, however, ready to start a campaign to "save the Bible Study" because Pastor NimRod didn't know his own county's ordinances.

 

[Intense]

Religious freedom does not mean exemption from all rules and regulations.
Churches are defined and subject to zoning laws, same as any other building.
He was holding regular meetings in his home for the purpose of relgious services. This makes it legally a church.
There were complaints from the neighbors as far as his parishoners and parking.
He applied to turn a garage into a game room and was approved. Instead he turned into a building specifically meant for worship services and had a sign usually associated with churches outside. It is a church.
He followed pretty much none of the safety and building requirements for a church.

The outrage is misplace, it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with zoning laws and building regulations.

No it doesn't.

 

[Amelia]

If she builds a 2,000 square foot building to do it in and erects a sign advertising it then yeah, probably.

I'm surprised the guy doesn't want to declare himself a church and get the tax benefits.

There was a sign advertising it?

A huge cross erected by the street.

So, no.

A traditional religious symbol doesn't count as a sign advertising meetings, even if it is large. It was a private group. Allegedly no advertisements were made. Everyone already knew when the meetings were.

 

[Ravi]

There was a sign advertising it?

A huge cross erected by the street.

So, no.

A traditional religious symbol doesn't count as a sign advertising meetings, even if it is large. It was a private group. Allegedly no advertisements were made. Everyone already knew when the meetings were.

If you say so. He apparently built the building and erected the cross after he was told that if he wanted to operate a church he needed to file for a zoning variance.

 

[Foxfyre]

Pastor arrested for holding home Bible study



Other links with different perspectives are welcome.

The other side of the story
The Salmans have been gathering in the home since 2005, but in 2007 they did receive a notice from the City of Phoenix that Bible studies and other church-like activities are not permitted in a residence unless the property is converted to an A3 occupancy, which allows commercial and public use. Michael Salmon argued his case pointing out that their gatherings are not opened to the public. Just like in the Bible, gatherings were among believers who knew one another. It was part of body life. With only 15-20 people meeting, Salmon argued that the code was unconstitutional. They tried to take steps to meet the requirements, but did not want to become a commercial entity

Pastor arrested for holding home Bible study - Atlanta Bible study | Examiner.com

He needs to fight it. 15-20 people. Imagine having to get special Zoning for a Family Gathering or a Birthday Party. Stepping on Religious Liberty like that is shameful.

This is where I am really working to think this through. Should there be zoning laws that could restrict a private Bible study in a home?

In the past I have opened my home to neighborhood latchkey kids to come in, conducted study hall in the basement family room, prepared pasta for the cross country team, etc. etc. etc. Sometimes there were a handful of kids, sometimes a lot, but most days there were some who would come to the house. No complaints from the neighbors. I didn't ask for or take any money for doing this, but if I had, I probably violated a dozen city rules for operating a 'child care facility' or some such. And this day and age, probably some zealot would have shut me down on the basis that I was operating a 'child care facility' or some such.

The Founders intended the people to establish whatever society they wished to have, and in the spirit of that, an ordinance prohiting large gatherings in a private home I suppose would be kosher. But I would sure as heck fight such an ordinance if I lived there because I wouldn't want any such restriction on myself.

 

[Ariux]

So does clogging the streets and every available parking place in a residential neighborhood constitute infringement on the rights of others?

I assume the cars park on his property, not the street. And, a half-dozen-or-so extra cars moving down the road once a week is insignificant.

 

[Foxfyre]

So does clogging the streets and every available parking place in a residential neighborhood constitute infringement on the rights of others?

I assume the cars park on his property, not the street. And, a half-dozen-or-so extra cars moving down the road once a week is insignificant.

But what residential neighborhood residence has room to park a large number of cars? Unless it is in the country which of course would not annoy the neighbors. So I imagine the parking problem was the signal that the gatherings were happening on a regular basis.

 

[Peach]

After two years of relative calm, the feud between the City of Phoenix and the Salmans escalated when they erected a 2,000 square foot building in their backyard. Mr Salman said he applied for and was granted all the appropriate permits and the building has passed a city inspection.

‘At that point we took our Bible study from our living room – and we moved it into that building,’ he said. ‘We started worshiping in that building every weekend.’

However, Miss Hill, the chief assistant city prosecutor, said Salman has ‘mischaracterized the facts’ of the permit. She said that he was given a permit to convert a garage into a game room, not a church or anything else for that matter.

Father of six faces 60 days behind bars for hosting Bible study in his OWN home against city rules | Mail Online

Maybe he doesn't know that lying is a sin.

Arrest is out of line, a citation by Code Enforcement is an appropriate action. He wasn't arrested for holding a Bible study, he was arrested for repeated violations of city fire codes. Still, too harsh a remedy. Citation, hearing, possible lien, handles this type of non compliance, at least in Florida.

 

[hortysir]

Same but different

Home: No place for Bible study

 

[Ariux]

But what residential neighborhood residence has room to park a large number of cars? Unless it is in the country which of course would not annoy the neighbors. So I imagine the parking problem was the signal that the gatherings were happening on a regular basis.

He has 4.5 acres of land, plenty of room for parking. The lot size suggests that this might even be a country road which doesn't have any parking on the street.

Parking isn't the issue. The whole dispute seems to stem from the Christian purpose, not the crowd per se.

If he were running a home-based daycare business on a 0.2 acre lot in a crowded neighborhood, with the same amount of traffic, except five days a week, the city wouldn't care.

 

[LAfrique]

What if a woman has a quilting circle at her home every weekend?

The city should shut that down unless she obtains a commercial and public use permit?

If she builds a 2,000 square foot building to do it in and erects a sign advertising it then yeah, probably.

I'm surprised the guy doesn't want to declare himself a church and get the tax benefits.

I was wondering if someone would notice that he doesn't seem to have done that.


His group is private and noncommercial. He has a good argument that it is not a church and should no more require a commercial permit than a bridge club or a quilting circle does.

Because running a church is not hthe man's intention. Besides, being a pastor requires lots of patience and can be very time consuming. Most people do not have the ability to be pastor: It takes a very special someone to be a pastor.

 

[Amelia]

Same but different

Home: No place for Bible study

wow

 

[daveman]

I suggest you look up "sarcasm" in any dictionary.

I know lots of libs, and pretty much that's how they feel. I can be forgiven for assuming mainstream liberal intentions.

Oh, bull shit. I know lots of libs and probably more cons, and I can tell you how most of them feel. The libs, while perhaps not being religious themselves, would not deny religion to others. You see, that is one of the main differences between most libs and most cons. Liberals seem to be generally much more tolerant of other's viewpoints than do cons. Cons seem to be generally less tolerant of other's viewpoints - much less tolerant.

To state it succintly: Libs: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it. Cons: If I don't like it, you can't have it.

You do know, don't you, that your side reports people to the government for criticizing Obama, right?