Parents Who Prayed While Child Died Charged

[Shogun]

Reckless Homicide Charges Filed After 11-Year-Old With Untreated Disease Dies

By DAVID SCHOETZ
April 28, 2008

The parents of an 11-year-old Wisconsin girl who prayed instead of seeking medical help for the diabetic child are facing homicide charges in connection with her death.

Dale and Leilani Neumann were charged with second-degree reckless homicide, Marathon County District Attorney Jill Falstad announced at a press conference today. If convicted, the couple could be sentenced to up to 25 years in prison.

"It is very surprising, shocking that she wasn't allowed medical intervention," Falstad said.

Madeline Kara Neumann, who went by the name Kara, died in March at a hospital in Everest, Wis. Her parents called 911 after she stopped breathing on Easter Sunday.


http://abcnews.go.com/Health/DiabetesResource/story?id=4741254&page=1

 

[cbi0090]

Horrible!!

 

[midcan5]

I have meet people like this, talked to a young boy often who eventually died of some crippling disease that may have been cured, but he thought it was what he was supposed to do. How do change them when this is what they believe and if death comes they still believe this is what should be. Obviously, I would exclude small children but even here we don't interfere in families usually.

 

[jillian]

We interfere in cases of medical neglect on a regular basis.

In this particular case, it was reckless disregard for the life of the child.

 

[midcan5]

We interfere in cases of medical neglect on a regular basis.

In this particular case, it was reckless disregard for the life of the child.

I agree, but allow me to be devil's advocate, in their eyes this wasn't neglect.

 

[jillian]

I agree, but allow me to be devil's advocate, in their eyes this wasn't neglect.

But that's unacceptable. They get to make those decisions for themselves...not for a child

Why would you want to play devil's advocate for them?

 

[Gunny]

But that's unacceptable. They get to make those decisions for themselves...not for a child

Why would you want to play devil's advocate for them?

Why not play Devil's advocate? You cannot be tolerant only when it suits you. If you are going to claim "tolerance" as part of your political ideology, then EVERYONE deserves it, not just the ones you agree with.

Easy to sit and judge when you think you know all the answers on a subject and close your mind to anything else.

 

[jillian]

Why not play Devil's advocate? You cannot be tolerant only when it suits you. If you are going to claim "tolerance" as part of your political ideology, then EVERYONE deserves it, not just the ones you agree with.

Easy to sit and judge when you think you know all the answers on a subject and close your mind to anything else.

Because they killed a kid. That doesn't deserve tolerance. If they wanted to kill themselves, I'd have no problem with it....

as far as I'm concerned murderers are murderers and rapists are rapists, even if they decide its in the name of religion.

 

[Larkinn]

Why not play Devil's advocate? You cannot be tolerant only when it suits you. If you are going to claim "tolerance" as part of your political ideology, then EVERYONE deserves it, not just the ones you agree with.

Tolerance doesn't extend to the negligent killing of children.

Easy to sit and judge when you think you know all the answers on a subject and close your mind to anything else.

You don't need to know "all the answers on a subject" to know that if your kid has a life-threatening illness, you take them to the doctors/hospital/medical care as opposed to praying for them. Freedom of religion doesn't include killing your kids.

 

[Care4all]

well, i can see this from both angles....the devil's side j/k, and jillian's as well.

let me start with, my heart goes out to these parents and how saddened they must be with their loss of their child.

i think midcan is correct regarding these parents, they did not know that they were doing wrong....bear with me on this religious rant....i just can't help it, it is a part of me....

if using God's old testament laws and judgements as example, they would probably not be punished in any major way imo.

why, you ask?

well, because i think that an intent with malice- to harm, was not present with the parents.

though negligence is also punishable in the old testament, never, ever to the degree of someone intentionally causing harm.

to me, it should be involuntary manslaughter or something like this, at most!

this is where i agree with jillian... if we do not charge these people (with something... but homocide is way too harsh imo), then others that believe the same as this couple, will never be made aware that this couple was WRONG in their actions, and sadly other children of people in this particular religion may continue to die...so a commotion and trial regarding this couple, may actually be what is necessary to prevent further unnecessary, deaths.

it would be negligent- on the State's end of protecting its citizens from harm, if they did not press some sort of charges against them, is sadly... how i see it, under these circumstances.

let me repeat that reckless homicide/ 2nd degree murder, is too harsh!!!

care

 

[Gunny]

Because they killed a kid. That doesn't deserve tolerance. If they wanted to kill themselves, I'd have no problem with it....

as far as I'm concerned murderers are murderers and rapists are rapists, even if they decide its in the name of religion.

No? Your opinion is closed-minded and intolerant.

 

[Gunny]

Tolerance doesn't extend to the negligent killing of children.



You don't need to know "all the answers on a subject" to know that if your kid has a life-threatening illness, you take them to the doctors/hospital/medical care as opposed to praying for them. Freedom of religion doesn't include killing your kids.

Right. You and Jillian both base your closed minds and intolerance on your belief that these people know what you know.

Nice that y'all have all the answers for everyone.

 

[Care4all]

Why not play Devil's advocate? You cannot be tolerant only when it suits you. If you are going to claim "tolerance" as part of your political ideology, then EVERYONE deserves it, not just the ones you agree with.

Easy to sit and judge when you think you know all the answers on a subject and close your mind to anything else.

i think, it would be similar, if the adult parents and older elders of the church that illegally marry off the minors to old fogies at the polygamist camp, are not punished to these parents not being punished or repremanded in any manner....

both THOUGHT they were doing right or doing ''no harm'', but both were doing harm, to their children.... this needs to be brought out in to the open....these religious sects need the exposure to the ''outside'' world and what we think and why we think it etc....and trials, may be one way of accomplishing this and maybe, just maybe....prevent these rapes and unnecessary deaths from the lack of medical attn that were to come....in the future?

care

 

[Gunny]

i think, it would be similar, if the adult parents and older elders of the church that illegally marry off the minors to old fogies at the polygamist camp, are not punished to these parents not being punished or repremanded in any manner....

both THOUGHT they were doing right or doing ''no harm'', but both were doing harm, to their children.... this needs to be brought out in to the open....these religious sects need the exposure to the ''outside'' world and what we think and why we think it etc....and trials, may be one way of accomplishing this and maybe, just maybe....prevent these rapes and unnecessary deaths from the lack of medical attn that were to come....in the future?

care

I was wondering who would try to make this correlation. I stated clearly in one of the other threads that these things have to be handled case by case based on circumstances. There is no cookie cutter problem with a cookie cutter solution.

 

[jillian]

Right. You and Jillian both base your closed minds and intolerance on your belief that these people know what you know.

Nice that y'all have all the answers for everyone.

Why would I be tolerant of killing and raping children because they've perverted religion?

 

[Gunny]

Why would I be tolerant of killing and raping children because they've perverted religion?

Why would you be intolerant of ingorance? Is that your idea of how to make things better? It appears you can't see past your own knee-jerk, emotional reactions to solving the problem. It's agree with you or they're criminals and should be jailed.

You immediately decided you had all the answers and labelled these people murderers, and that's THAT. You sound like Nancy Grace. You could be correct. But you don't KNOW that you are.

And why is it you don't apply that same standard to Democrats/liberals? "They" are entitled to the benefit of doubt from you. "They" deserve their day in court and a mountain of evidence is required to convict.

I'm not excusing the crime at all. I'm questioning the severity of the crime you have already convicted them of. Did these people intentionally deprive their child of medical care for the purpose of causing the child's death?

Not according to what I read they didn't.

 

[midcan5]

I was glad to see others chime in on this topic, I went to bed last night actually thinking about personal beliefs - and not whether she had a headache lol - and the assumptions we make when we assume we know what is right. Also have been reading Habermas and his discourse ethics. If we extrapolate our moral judgements about this wrong how do we justify other actions, for instance last term abortion because the mother wasn't thinking? Or numerous other choices that have moral real world consequences? I don't for a minute condone their act.



"It is not enough to ask, ‘Will my act harm other people?’ Even if the answer is No, my act may still be wrong, because of its effects on other people. I should ask, ‘Will my act be one of a set of acts that will together harm other people?’ The answer may be Yes. And the harm to others may be great..." Derek Parfit

 

[Ravi]

There is no evidence that late term abortions are performed because the mother wasn't thinking.

You did make an interesting point but I wonder if people's thoughts would change if these people were wiccans or vegans? Does irrational belief excuse this sort of behavior?

 

[Larkinn]

Right. You and Jillian both base your closed minds and intolerance on your belief that these people know what you know.

Either they know what I know, or they should have. You don't get to get out of killing someone because your an idiot.

Nice that y'all have all the answers for everyone.

Give me a fucking break. Sure, lets just let everyone plead stupidity when they act criminally. Then we can let murderers off because they didn't know what a gun was.

 

[Larkinn]

Why would you be intolerant of ingorance?

Because tolerance of ignorance makes the judicial system break down and become a farce.

Is that your idea of how to make things better? It appears you can't see past your own knee-jerk, emotional reactions to solving the problem. It's agree with you or they're criminals and should be jailed.

Right. Agree with me that you don't shoot someone in the face. Whoah, what a fucking concept! Agree with me that you don't allow your child to die without seeking medical help. Whoah, what a fucking concept!

Don't try and pull this "omg you aren't tolerant" load of horse shit. That has nothing to do with this.

And why is it you don't apply that same standard to Democrats/liberals? "They" are entitled to the benefit of doubt from you. "They" deserve their day in court and a mountain of evidence is required to convict.

Thats when the facts are unclear. What fact is at issue here exactly?