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Palestinians: 10,000 years ago, since Abraham or since the Mandate for Palestine?

surada

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rylah

Elam consisted of a plain occupying a depression in the mountains of Iran or Persia. Of this the smaller part-which, however, was also the most ancient historically-lay between the Pusht-e-Kuh on the West, the Lur mountains on the North, the Bakhtiari heights to the East and Southeast, and the hills of Ahwaz to the South.
Bible Map: Elam
bibleatlas.org/elam.htm
bibleatlas.org/elam.htm
 

rylah

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rylah

Elam consisted of a plain occupying a depression in the mountains of Iran or Persia. Of this the smaller part-which, however, was also the most ancient historically-lay between the Pusht-e-Kuh on the West, the Lur mountains on the North, the Bakhtiari heights to the East and Southeast, and the hills of Ahwaz to the South.
Bible Map: Elam
bibleatlas.org/elam.htm
bibleatlas.org/elam.htm
Thanks for admitting you have nothing to refute my previous post.

And now this has what to do with the thread?
 

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Wow. Six pages in and not one word about Palestinians. Lots of talk about other cultural and ethnic groups, largely historical and irrelevant. But nothing about Palestinians.

Perhaps we need some basic definitions? How does one differentiate between all these different cultural and ethnic groups to decide which label to put on them?
 
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For those who still own an old encyclopedia that predates the mid-1960’s, look up “Palestinian.” The term did not exist as its 1964 fabrication has created. Ḥevron was a Jewish city in the Holy Land, and Jews lived there until the Arab marauders cleansed out the Jews — exterminated them, to use Hitler’s and Himmler’s term — in 1929. By contrast, the term “Palestine” was coined by the Roman Empire two thousand years earlier as they expelled Jews from the Holy Land and sought to distance future Jewish attachments by naming the region for the Biblical Philistines. Arabs are not and never were ethnic Philistines.

There never was an “Arab Palestine.” It never existed as a polity. What was its capital city? There was none. Name any king or sheikh or president or prime minister it had. There never was any. Indeed that lack of any connection to the land is why the contemporary “Palestinians” call the region they want “the West Bank.” They call it that because, after 5,781 years or so of human history, the Arab world never has had its own name for that region.



Other Arab places have names: Tyre, Sidon, Damascus — all Biblical names like Jerusalem, Beit Lechem (Bethlehem), Shiloh, Be’er Sheva (Beersheba), Galil (Galilee), Natzrat (Nazareth), Yehudah (Judea), and Shomron (Samaria). To be sure, Jews and Christians have had a specific name for “the West Bank” for 3,000 years: Yehudah v’Shomron (Judea and Samaria). Judea (Yehudah) is the southern part of the “West Bank,” and Samaria (Shomron) the northern. Those terms are all over the Bible, with more than a hundred mentions just of “Samaria” in the Tanakh (Jewish Bible) and the Christian Gospels. Just a few examples:



  • “Elisha replied, “Hear the word of the Lord. This is what the Lord says: About this time tomorrow, a seah of the finest flour will sell for a shekel and two seahs of barley for a shekel at the gate of Samaria.” (II Kings 7:1)
  • “Again you will plant vineyards on the hills of Samaria; the farmers will plant them and enjoy their fruit.” (Jeremiah 31:5)
  • “Now on his way to Jerusalem, Jesus traveled along the border between Samaria and Galilee.” (Luke 17:11)
  • “[A]nd you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” (Acts 1:8)
  • “Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace and was strengthened.” (Acts 9:31)


I never once saw the Jordan River through two years living and traveling and visiting up and down Judea and Samaria. Yehudah and Shomron are not the “west bank” of anything...

Travel up and down Judea and Samaria to cities like Ḥevron, Ariel, Shiloh, Beit El (Bethel), Maaleh Adumim, Gilo, and all 140 Jewish communities there. They are not remotely near the Jordan River, certainly no more than Los Angeles fairly should lose its name and instead be called “The East Bank” (of the Pacfific) or New York City “The West Bank” (of the Atlantic) or “The East Bank” (of the Hudson River).

(full article online)

 

surada

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Wow. Six pages in and not one word about Palestinians. Lots of talk about other cultural and ethnic groups, largely historical and irrelevant. But nothing about Palestinians.

Perhaps we need some basic definitions? How does one differentiate between all these different cultural and ethnic groups to decide which label to put on them?

Irosie is trying to claim Mecca and Medina which are more than 1500 miles from the Amaleks and which didn't exist before 400 AD.
 

P F Tinmore

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Wow. Six pages in and not one word about Palestinians. Lots of talk about other cultural and ethnic groups, largely historical and irrelevant. But nothing about Palestinians.

Perhaps we need some basic definitions? How does one differentiate between all these different cultural and ethnic groups to decide which label to put on them?
Good question. We have a Little Italy, China town, Slavic village,...

We seem to manage.
 

surada

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For those who still own an old encyclopedia that predates the mid-1960’s, look up “Palestinian.” The term did not exist as its 1964 fabrication has created. Ḥevron was a Jewish city in the Holy Land, and Jews lived there until the Arab marauders cleansed out the Jews — exterminated them, to use Hitler’s and Himmler’s term — in 1929. By contrast, the term “Palestine” was coined by the Roman Empire two thousand years earlier as they expelled Jews from the Holy Land and sought to distance future Jewish attachments by naming the region for the Biblical Philistines. Arabs are not and never were ethnic Philistines.

There never was an “Arab Palestine.” It never existed as a polity. What was its capital city? There was none. Name any king or sheikh or president or prime minister it had. There never was any. Indeed that lack of any connection to the land is why the contemporary “Palestinians” call the region they want “the West Bank.” They call it that because, after 5,781 years or so of human history, the Arab world never has had its own name for that region.



Other Arab places have names: Tyre, Sidon, Damascus — all Biblical names like Jerusalem, Beit Lechem (Bethlehem), Shiloh, Be’er Sheva (Beersheba), Galil (Galilee), Natzrat (Nazareth), Yehudah (Judea), and Shomron (Samaria). To be sure, Jews and Christians have had a specific name for “the West Bank” for 3,000 years: Yehudah v’Shomron (Judea and Samaria). Judea (Yehudah) is the southern part of the “West Bank,” and Samaria (Shomron) the northern. Those terms are all over the Bible, with more than a hundred mentions just of “Samaria” in the Tanakh (Jewish Bible) and the Christian Gospels. Just a few examples:



  • “Elisha replied, “Hear the word of the Lord. This is what the Lord says: About this time tomorrow, a seah of the finest flour will sell for a shekel and two seahs of barley for a shekel at the gate of Samaria.” (II Kings 7:1)
  • “Again you will plant vineyards on the hills of Samaria; the farmers will plant them and enjoy their fruit.” (Jeremiah 31:5)
  • “Now on his way to Jerusalem, Jesus traveled along the border between Samaria and Galilee.” (Luke 17:11)
  • “[A]nd you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” (Acts 1:8)
  • “Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace and was strengthened.” (Acts 9:31)


I never once saw the Jordan River through two years living and traveling and visiting up and down Judea and Samaria. Yehudah and Shomron are not the “west bank” of anything...

Travel up and down Judea and Samaria to cities like Ḥevron, Ariel, Shiloh, Beit El (Bethel), Maaleh Adumim, Gilo, and all 140 Jewish communities there. They are not remotely near the Jordan River, certainly no more than Los Angeles fairly should lose its name and instead be called “The East Bank” (of the Pacfific) or New York City “The West Bank” (of the Atlantic) or “The East Bank” (of the Hudson River).

(full article online)


I have seen the Jordan river several times before the 6 Day War.. The West bank used to be very pretty with olive trees, almond trees and pomegranate trees. I always liked the Palestinians both Christian and Muslims.

All Bibles had a map of Palestine in the front of the book, as far back as I can remember. Some of the family Bibles were from the 1920s, 1940s and even older.
 

surada

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For those who still own an old encyclopedia that predates the mid-1960’s, look up “Palestinian.” The term did not exist as its 1964 fabrication has created. Ḥevron was a Jewish city in the Holy Land, and Jews lived there until the Arab marauders cleansed out the Jews — exterminated them, to use Hitler’s and Himmler’s term — in 1929. By contrast, the term “Palestine” was coined by the Roman Empire two thousand years earlier as they expelled Jews from the Holy Land and sought to distance future Jewish attachments by naming the region for the Biblical Philistines. Arabs are not and never were ethnic Philistines.

There never was an “Arab Palestine.” It never existed as a polity. What was its capital city? There was none. Name any king or sheikh or president or prime minister it had. There never was any. Indeed that lack of any connection to the land is why the contemporary “Palestinians” call the region they want “the West Bank.” They call it that because, after 5,781 years or so of human history, the Arab world never has had its own name for that region.



Other Arab places have names: Tyre, Sidon, Damascus — all Biblical names like Jerusalem, Beit Lechem (Bethlehem), Shiloh, Be’er Sheva (Beersheba), Galil (Galilee), Natzrat (Nazareth), Yehudah (Judea), and Shomron (Samaria). To be sure, Jews and Christians have had a specific name for “the West Bank” for 3,000 years: Yehudah v’Shomron (Judea and Samaria). Judea (Yehudah) is the southern part of the “West Bank,” and Samaria (Shomron) the northern. Those terms are all over the Bible, with more than a hundred mentions just of “Samaria” in the Tanakh (Jewish Bible) and the Christian Gospels. Just a few examples:



  • “Elisha replied, “Hear the word of the Lord. This is what the Lord says: About this time tomorrow, a seah of the finest flour will sell for a shekel and two seahs of barley for a shekel at the gate of Samaria.” (II Kings 7:1)
  • “Again you will plant vineyards on the hills of Samaria; the farmers will plant them and enjoy their fruit.” (Jeremiah 31:5)
  • “Now on his way to Jerusalem, Jesus traveled along the border between Samaria and Galilee.” (Luke 17:11)
  • “[A]nd you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” (Acts 1:8)
  • “Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace and was strengthened.” (Acts 9:31)


I never once saw the Jordan River through two years living and traveling and visiting up and down Judea and Samaria. Yehudah and Shomron are not the “west bank” of anything...

Travel up and down Judea and Samaria to cities like Ḥevron, Ariel, Shiloh, Beit El (Bethel), Maaleh Adumim, Gilo, and all 140 Jewish communities there. They are not remotely near the Jordan River, certainly no more than Los Angeles fairly should lose its name and instead be called “The East Bank” (of the Pacfific) or New York City “The West Bank” (of the Atlantic) or “The East Bank” (of the Hudson River).

(full article online)


Hebron was an Arab city until 1500 AD.
 
OP
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Hebron was an Arab city until 1500 AD.
It was taken from the Jews who had lived for the previous 1500 years. Who knows for how long, if ever. And were still living there in 1948 when they were expelled by the Hashemite Jordanian Army.
 

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It was taken from the Jews who had lived for the previous 1500 years. Who knows for how long, if ever. And were still living there in 1948 when they were expelled by the Hashemite Jordanian Army.

Hebron was an Arab city until a handful of Jewish families arrived from Spain and Portugal without incident.
 
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Hebron was an Arab city until a handful of Jewish families arrived from Spain and Portugal without incident.
Read the Hebrew Scriptures.
-----------------

Hebron has a long and rich Jewish history. Numbers 13:22 states that (Canaanite) Hebron was founded seven years before the Egyptian town of Zoan, i.e. around 1720 BCE, and the ancient (Canaanite and Israelite) city of Hebron was situated at Tel Rumeida. The city’s history has been inseparably linked with the Cave of Machpelah, which the Patriarch Abraham purchased from Ephron the Hittite for 400 silver shekels (Genesis 23) as a family tomb. This was the first parcel of land owned by the Jewish people in their Promised Land. As recorded in Genesis, the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the Matriarchs Sarah, Rebekah and Leah, are buried there, and — according to a Jewish tradition — Adam and Eve are also buried there.

Hebron is mentioned 87 times in the Bible and is the world’s oldest Jewish community. Joshua assigned Hebron to Caleb from the tribe of Judah (Joshua 14:13-14), who subsequently led his tribe in conquering the city and its environs (Judges 1:1-20). As Joshua 14:15 notes, “the former name of Hebron was Kiryat Arba...”

Following the death of King Saul, God instructed David to go to Hebron, where he was anointed King of Judah (II Samuel 2:1-4) and reigned in the city for seven years before being anointed King over all Israel (II Samuel 5:1-3). One thousand years later, during the first Jewish revolt against the Romans, the city was the scene of extensive fighting. Jews lived in Hebron continuously throughout the Byzantine, Arab, Mameluke and Ottoman periods and it was only in 1929 that the city became temporarily “free” of Jews as a result of an Arab pogrom in which 67 Jews were murdered and the remainder forced to flee. After the 1967 Six-Day War, the Jewish community of Hebron was re-established.

The city was part of the united kingdom and — later — the southern Kingdom of Judah, until the latter fell to the Babylonians in 586 BCE. Despite the loss of Jewish independence, Jews continued to live in Hebron (Nehemiah 11:25), and the city was later incorporated into the (Jewish) Hasmonean kingdom by John Hyrcanus. King Herod (reigned 37-4 BCE) built the base of the present structure — the 12 meter high wall — over the Tomb the Patriarchs.

The city was the scene of extensive fighting during the Jewish Revolt against the Romans (65-70, see Josephus 4:529, 554), but Jews continued to live there after the Revolt, through the later Bar Kochba Revolt (132-135 CE), and into the Byzantineperiod. The remains of a synagogue from the Byzantine period have been excavated in the city, and the Byzantines built a large church over the Tomb of the Patriarchs, incorporating the pre- existing Herodian structure.

Tel Hebron
telhebron.jpg
In October 2018, a new archaeological site opened at Tel Hebron where the walls of the city from the Early and Middle Bronze Age were excavated, as well as buildings from the Early Roman period, including pottery vessels, jewelry and coins. Workshops from the First Temple period, including wine and olive presses, pottery kilns and huge vessels to produce wine and oil were also discovered. Other findings include a four-chamber house, jars bearing ancient Hebrew inscriptions with words “to the king of Hebron” and a section of the city wall.

Jews continued to live in Hebron after the city’s conquest by the Arabs (in 638), whose generally tolerant rule was welcomed, especially after the often-harsh Byzantine rule. The Arabs converted the Byzantine church at the Tomb the Patriarchs into a mosque.

Upon capturing the city in 1100, the Crusaders expelled the Jewish community, and converted the mosque at the Tomb back into a church. The Jewish community was re-established following the Mamelukes’ conquest of the city in 1260, and the Mamelukes reconverted the church at the Tomb of the Patriarchs back into a mosque. However, the restored Islamic (Mameluke) ascendancy was less tolerant than the pre-Crusader Islamic (Arab) regimes — a 1266 decree barred Jews (and Christians) from entering the Tomb of the Patriarchs, allowing them only to ascend to the fifth, later the seventh, step outside the eastern wall. The Jewish cemetery — on a hill west of the Tomb — was first mentioned in a letter dated to 1290.

The Ottoman Turks’ conquest of the city in 1517 was marked by a violent pogrom which included many deaths, rapes, and the plundering of Jewish homes. The surviving Jews fled to Beirut and did not return until 1533. In 1540, Jewish exiles from Spain acquired the site of the “Court of the Jews” and built the Avraham Avinu (“Abraham Our Father”) synagogue. (One year — according to local legend — when the requisite quorum for prayer was lacking, the Patriarch Abrahamhimself appeared to complete the quorum; hence, the name of the synagogue.)

Despite the events of 1517, its general poverty and a devastating plague in 1619, the Hebron Jewish community grew. Throughout the Turkish period (1517-1917), groups of Jews from other parts of the Land of Israel, and the Diaspora, moved to Hebron, joining the existing community, and the city became a rabbinic center of note.

In 1775, the Hebron Jewish community was rocked by a blood libel, in which Jews were falsely accused of murdering the son of a local sheikh. The community — which was largely sustained by donations from abroad — was forced to pay a crushing fine, which further worsened its already shaky economic situation.

Despite its poverty, the community managed, in 1807, to purchase a 5-dunam plot — upon which the city’s wholesale market stands today — and after several years the sale was recognized by the Hebron Waqf. In 1811, 800 dunams of land were acquired to expand the cemetery. In 1817, the Jewish community numbered approximately 500 and, by 1838, it had grown to 700, despite a pogrom which took place in 1834, during Mohammed Ali’s rebellion against the Ottomans (1831-1840).

In 1870, a wealthy Turkish Jew, Haim Yisrael Romano, moved to Hebron and purchased a plot of land upon which his family built a large residence and guest house, which came to be called Beit Romano. The building later housed a synagogue and served as a yeshiva, before it was seized by the Turks. During the Mandatory period, the building served the British administration as a police station, remand center, and court house.

In 1893, the building later known as Beit Hadassah was built by the Hebron Jewish community as a clinic, and a second floor was added in 1909. The Hadassah organization contributed the salaries of the clinic’s medical staff, who served both the city’s Jewish and Arab populations.

During World War I, before the British occupation, the Jewish community suffered greatly under the wartime Turkish administration. Young men were forcibly conscripted into the Turkish army, overseas financial assistance was cut off, and the community was threatened by hunger and disease. However, with the establishment of the British administration in 1918, the community, reduced to 430 people, began to recover. In 1925, Rabbi Mordechai Epstein established a new yeshiva, and by 1929, the population had risen to 700 again.



 
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Hebron was an Arab city until a handful of Jewish families arrived from Spain and Portugal without incident.
You keep implying that no Jews had ever lived in Hebron before some Jews arrived from Spain and Portugal.

Seriously !!!!!
 
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Where is your proof, which is what the thread is about, of Palestinians being in Ancient Canaan 10,000 years, etc, etc
 

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You keep implying that no Jews had ever lived in Hebron before some Jews arrived from Spain and Portugal.

Seriously !!!!!

After the Bar Kokba revolt there were very few Jews in Palestine.. They lived in Iran, Iraq, Libya, Aleppo, Baghdad, Damascus, Alexandria Elephantine Island.. and all around the Med Sea. Read the travel journals of Ibn Battuta and Rabbi Benjamin of Tudela.
 
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After the Bar Kokba revolt there were very few Jews in Palestine.. They lived in Iran, Iraq, Libya, Aleppo, Baghdad, Damascus, Alexandria Elephantine Island.. and all around the Med Sea. Read the travel journals of Ibn Battuta and Rabbi Benjamin of Tudela.
Who did the Romans, Byzantine, Muslims, Crusaders, Ottomans and British consider to be the Indigenous people of the Land?

The Jewish People

There has always been Jewish presence on the Land, and all of the invaders above KNEW that only the Jewish People had a continuous history on the land and were the rightful owners of the land.

Live with it.
 

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Who did the Romans, Byzantine, Muslims, Crusaders, Ottomans and British consider to be the Indigenous people of the Land?

The Jewish People

There has always been Jewish presence on the Land, and all of the invaders above KNEW that only the Jewish People had a continuous history on the land and were the rightful owners of the land.

Live with it.

From the Ottomans on, the majority of the population was Arab.
 
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From the Ottomans on, the majority of the population was Arab.
Numbers, numbers, numbers.

Numbers do not make the indigenous people in the Jewish Homeland, anymore than numbers make who the native people of the Americas are simply because late arriving Europeans and Asians have become the majority from 1492 on.

Or Australia, or Hawaii, or New Zealand, etc.


You do not do it to any of the other indigenous people above but continue to do it to the Jewish People.
Delegitimizing the Jewish People at any cost.
 

surada

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Numbers, numbers, numbers.

Numbers do not make the indigenous people in the Jewish Homeland, anymore than numbers make who the native people of the Americas are simply because late arriving Europeans and Asians have become the majority from 1492 on.

Or Australia, or Hawaii, or New Zealand, etc.


You do not do it to any of the other indigenous people above but continue to do it to the Jewish People.
Delegitimizing the Jewish People at any cost.

Numbers, numbers, numbers.

Numbers do not make the indigenous people in the Jewish Homeland, anymore than numbers make who the native people of the Americas are simply because late arriving Europeans and Asians have become the majority from 1492 on.

Or Australia, or Hawaii, or New Zealand, etc.


You do not do it to any of the other indigenous people above but continue to do it to the Jewish People.
Delegitimizing the Jewish People at any cost.

They were Canaanites from the Northwest Coast of Syria.. .. No different than all the other Canaanite tribes in the area.

img020.jpg
 
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They were Canaanites from the Northwest Coast of Syria.. .. No different than all the other Canaanite tribes in the area.

img020.jpg
The Jewish Nation is the only Nation mentioned by all of its invaders as the Indigenous people of the land.


You keep generalizing and using that generalization to wipe out the history of the Jewish Nation in order to make the Arabs into Palestinians, all of these other Nations into Palestinians, and therefore nullifying any history which is written in any book, where these other nations are NOT the ones with the Monarchies which lasted over 1000 years, ON that land.

And lasted another 2000 years, as the people from that Nation, the Jewish Nation, is the only one which in World History continued to live on the land and sometimes struggle to liberate it and be sovereign over it again.


Go ahead. Generalize some more.
 

surada

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Numbers, numbers, numbers.

Numbers do not make the indigenous people in the Jewish Homeland, anymore than numbers make who the native people of the Americas are simply because late arriving Europeans and Asians have become the majority from 1492 on.

Or Australia, or Hawaii, or New Zealand, etc.


You do not do it to any of the other indigenous people above but continue to do it to the Jewish People.
Delegitimizing the Jewish People at any cost.

They were Canaanites from the Northwest Coast of Syria.. .. No different than all the other Canaanite tribes in the area.
 

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