Our Kennedy.

Fine, for arguments sake let's assume that since Kennedy increased the number of US troops in Vietnam from less than a thousand to sixteen thousand in two and a half years it's also possible that if he'd had another five years in office he may very well have CONTINUED to increase the number of troops at the same pace...which means doubling their number approximately every six months. In that case we would have had over two hundred and fifty thousand troops in Vietnam by the end of two years. The truth is...you have absolutely no idea WHAT Kennedy would have done with troop levels because as Saunders pointed out...his past record indicated that he would be more apt to increase them than decrease them.

You just lost pal.

You said you are basing your opinion on what Kennedy DID. You LIED. You just admitted you are trying to blame Kennedy for what Johnson DID.

NOW, we have to include the official policy Kennedy put in place. That policy was to withdraw. So if you want to speculate, the logical assumption of WHAT Kennedy would have done with troop levels is to DEcrease, not increase.

As Saunders pointed out...if you look at what Kennedy had ACTUALLY DONE rather than speculating on what he might have done it's hard to see JFK withdrawing all of our troops and far more likely that he would have continued to increase the number of troops in Vietnam. You could make the argument that it was unlikely that Eisenhower would have increased troop levels dramatically because he didn't do so. You can make the argument that Nixon would have decreased the number of troops because that's what he DID. You can't make the same argument for either Kennedy or for Johnson because BOTH increased troop levels substantially. THAT is what Saunders is referring to when she talks of Kennedy's "rocketing" of the number of US troops in Vietnam and THAT is why Saunders is highly skeptical of those who believe Kennedy was about to pull out of Vietnam.

Your problem is that Kennedy's "policy" never was acted upon and you REALLY don't have any way of knowing if it ever would have been other than the Monday Morning quarterbacking done by people like Robert McNamara trying to paint John F. Kennedy in a favorable light. Saunders (and myself) are going by Kennedy's actions...you are going by a "plan" that may or may not have ever been carried out.
 
Fine, for arguments sake let's assume that since Kennedy increased the number of US troops in Vietnam from less than a thousand to sixteen thousand in two and a half years it's also possible that if he'd had another five years in office he may very well have CONTINUED to increase the number of troops at the same pace...which means doubling their number approximately every six months. In that case we would have had over two hundred and fifty thousand troops in Vietnam by the end of two years. The truth is...you have absolutely no idea WHAT Kennedy would have done with troop levels because as Saunders pointed out...his past record indicated that he would be more apt to increase them than decrease them.

You just lost pal.

You said you are basing your opinion on what Kennedy DID. You LIED. You just admitted you are trying to blame Kennedy for what Johnson DID.

NOW, we have to include the official policy Kennedy put in place. That policy was to withdraw. So if you want to speculate, the logical assumption of WHAT Kennedy would have done with troop levels is to DEcrease, not increase.

As Saunders pointed out...if you look at what Kennedy had ACTUALLY DONE rather than speculating on what he might have done it's hard to see JFK withdrawing all of our troops and far more likely that he would have continued to increase the number of troops in Vietnam. You could make the argument that it was unlikely that Eisenhower would have increased troop levels dramatically because he didn't do so. You can make the argument that Nixon would have decreased the number of troops because that's what he DID. You can't make the same argument for either Kennedy or for Johnson because BOTH increased troop levels substantially. THAT is what Saunders is referring to when she talks of Kennedy's "rocketing" of the number of US troops in Vietnam and THAT is why Saunders is highly skeptical of those who believe Kennedy was about to pull out of Vietnam.

Your problem is that Kennedy's "policy" never was acted upon and you REALLY don't have any way of knowing if it ever would have been other than the Monday Morning quarterbacking done by people like Robert McNamara trying to paint John F. Kennedy in a favorable light. Saunders (and myself) are going by Kennedy's actions...you are going by a "plan" that may or may not have ever been carried out.

Your problem is you want to just ignore the official US policy Kennedy signed, supported and WAS acted upon. We DID begin to withdraw the first 1,000 troops before the end of 1963. But Kennedy was murdered, and at the very moment he expired in Trauma Room One at Parkland Hospital it became Lyndon Johnson's Vietnam. If Kennedy planned on continuing to escalate our troop levels, WHY THE HELL would he even create an official policy of withdrawal?

WHAT was the official US policy on Vietnam the day Kennedy died? Can you answer that honestly?
 
U.S. Troop Deployment Dataset ... 9, DOD Deployment of Military Personnel by Country

s3.amazonaws.com/thf_media/2004/pdf/troopMarch2005.xls


Country 1963
East Asia 183,637
Europe 360,837
Middle East 15,604
Africa 5,377
Americas 29,276
TOTAL - WORLDWIDE 2,695,240
Total - Foreign (Ashore and Afloat) 731,045
Total - Foreign (Sum) 594,731
% Troops Foreign/Worldwide (Sum) 22.1
Continental U.S. 1,695,380
Alaska 31,583
Antarctic Region 335
Guam 7,731
Hawaiian Islands -
Johnston Island 126
Marshall Islands 152
Midway 1,685
Puerto Rico 9,295
Samoan Islands -
Transients -
Virgin Islands -
Volcano Islands (Iwo Jima) 686
Wake Island 38
Eniwetok (J.T.F. 7) -
Federated state of Micronesia -
Northern Mariana Islands -
Palau -
Trust Territory of Pacific Islands -
US Miscellaneous Pacific -

Australia 217
Brunei -
Cambodia 70
China -
Easter Island -
Fiji and Tonga -
Hong Kong 30
Indonesia 46
Japan 89,454
Korea, Democratic Peoples Republic of -
Korea, Republic of 56,910
Laos 99
Line Islands -
Malaysia 12
Myanmar 25
Mongolia
Nauru -
New Zealand 54
Papua New Guinea -
Philippines 13,889
Sarawak -
Singapore 19
Taiwan 3,923
Thailand 3,269
Tonga -
Vietnam 15,620
Albania -
Austria 25
Belgium 121
Bosnia and Herzegovina -
Bulgaria 3
Croatia -
Cyprus 321
Czechoslovakia 4
Denmark 78
Finland 29
France 41,331
German Democratic Republic -
Germany 254,057
Gibraltar 3
Greece 2,796
Greenland 4,654
Hungary 5
Iceland 2,632
Ireland 17
Italy 10,265
Luxembourg 5
Macedonia -
Malta 27
Netherlands 903
Norway 339
Poland 19
Portugal 2,215
Romania 5
Russia 53
Serbia and Montenegro -
Slovakia -
Spain 13,418
Sweden 24
Switzerland 23
United Kingdom 27,438
Vatican City -
Yugoslavia 27
Armenia -
Azerbaijan -
Belarus -
Estonia -
Georgia -
Kazakhstan -
Kyrgyzstan -
Latvia -
Lithuania -
Moldova -
Slovenia -
Tajikistan -
Turkmenistan -
Ukraine -
Uzbekistan -
Aden -
Afghanistan 22
Algeria 13
Bahrein / Bahrain 17
Bangladesh -
Diego Garcia -
Egypt 74
India 155
Iran 624
Iraq 18
Israel 41
Jordan 13
Kashmir -
Kuwait -
Lebanon 31
Morocco 2,378
Nepal 8
Oman -
Pakistan 1,380
Qatar -
Saudi Arabia 315
Sri Lanka / Ceylon 14
Sudan 9
Syria 9
Tunisia 8
Turkey 10,475
United Arab Emirates -
Western Sahara -
Yemen -
Angola -
Botswana -
Burkina Faso -
Burundi 2
Cameroon 3
Central African Republic -
Chad -
Congo - Democratic Republic 64
Congo - Republic of 10
Djibouti -
Eritrea -
Ethiopia 1,608
Gabon -
Gambia, The -
Ghana 9
Guinea -
Guinea-Bissau -
Ivory Coast (Cote d'Ivorie) 14
Kenya -
Lesotho -
Liberia 21
Libya 3,586
Madagascar 10
Malawi -
Mali 4
Mauritania -
Mauritius -
Mozambique -
Namibia -
Niger -
Nigeria 9
Rwanda -
Senegal 4
Seychelles Island -
Sierra Leone -
Somali Republic 9
South Africa 23
St. Helena 1
Tanzania -
Togo -
Uganda -
Zambia -
Zimbabwe -
Antigua -
Argentina 77
Aruba 8
Bahamas 364
Barbados -
Belize -
Bermuda 3,019
Bolivia 76
Brazil 185
British Virgin Islands -
British West Indies Federation 214
Canada 11,484
Chile 67
Colombia 68
Costa Rica 18
Cuba / Guantanamo 3,471
Dominican Republic 75
Ecuador 76
El Salvador 31
Grenada -
Guatemala 66
Guyana -
Haiti 8
Honduras 29
Jamaica 2
Mexico 28
Nicaragua 26
Panama 9,382
Paraguay 33
Peru 77
St. Lucia -
Suriname 5
Trinidad 237
Turks Island -
Uruguay 41
Venezuela 109
 
You just lost pal.

You said you are basing your opinion on what Kennedy DID. You LIED. You just admitted you are trying to blame Kennedy for what Johnson DID.

NOW, we have to include the official policy Kennedy put in place. That policy was to withdraw. So if you want to speculate, the logical assumption of WHAT Kennedy would have done with troop levels is to DEcrease, not increase.

As Saunders pointed out...if you look at what Kennedy had ACTUALLY DONE rather than speculating on what he might have done it's hard to see JFK withdrawing all of our troops and far more likely that he would have continued to increase the number of troops in Vietnam. You could make the argument that it was unlikely that Eisenhower would have increased troop levels dramatically because he didn't do so. You can make the argument that Nixon would have decreased the number of troops because that's what he DID. You can't make the same argument for either Kennedy or for Johnson because BOTH increased troop levels substantially. THAT is what Saunders is referring to when she talks of Kennedy's "rocketing" of the number of US troops in Vietnam and THAT is why Saunders is highly skeptical of those who believe Kennedy was about to pull out of Vietnam.

Your problem is that Kennedy's "policy" never was acted upon and you REALLY don't have any way of knowing if it ever would have been other than the Monday Morning quarterbacking done by people like Robert McNamara trying to paint John F. Kennedy in a favorable light. Saunders (and myself) are going by Kennedy's actions...you are going by a "plan" that may or may not have ever been carried out.

Your problem is you want to just ignore the official US policy Kennedy signed, supported and WAS acted upon. We DID begin to withdraw the first 1,000 troops before the end of 1963. But Kennedy was murdered, and at the very moment he expired in Trauma Room One at Parkland Hospital it became Lyndon Johnson's Vietnam. If Kennedy planned on continuing to escalate our troop levels, WHY THE HELL would he even create an official policy of withdrawal?

WHAT was the official US policy on Vietnam the day Kennedy died? Can you answer that honestly?


For the umpteenth time...Kennedy created a plan to withdraw US troops because he'd been advised that the war was going so well that all that was needed was for the South Vietnamese to do a little "mopping up". That was not the case. The assassination of the Diem brothers came after Kennedy's "plan" was drawn up and South Vietnam was in a state of turmoil. A complete pull out of US troops at that point would have almost certainly led to an immediate takeover by the communists. So is it your contention that Kennedy didn't have a problem with that? Because if you look at his repeated statements leading up to that point Kennedy was adamant about not pulling out of Vietnam.
 
U.S. Troop Deployment Dataset ... 9, DOD Deployment of Military Personnel by Country

s3.amazonaws.com/thf_media/2004/pdf/troopMarch2005.xls


Country 1963
East Asia 183,637
Europe 360,837
Middle East 15,604
Africa 5,377
Americas 29,276
TOTAL - WORLDWIDE 2,695,240
Total - Foreign (Ashore and Afloat) 731,045
Total - Foreign (Sum) 594,731
% Troops Foreign/Worldwide (Sum) 22.1
Continental U.S. 1,695,380
Alaska 31,583
Antarctic Region 335
Guam 7,731
Hawaiian Islands -
Johnston Island 126
Marshall Islands 152
Midway 1,685
Puerto Rico 9,295
Samoan Islands -
Transients -
Virgin Islands -
Volcano Islands (Iwo Jima) 686
Wake Island 38
Eniwetok (J.T.F. 7) -
Federated state of Micronesia -
Northern Mariana Islands -
Palau -
Trust Territory of Pacific Islands -
US Miscellaneous Pacific -

Australia 217
Brunei -
Cambodia 70
China -
Easter Island -
Fiji and Tonga -
Hong Kong 30
Indonesia 46
Japan 89,454
Korea, Democratic Peoples Republic of -
Korea, Republic of 56,910
Laos 99
Line Islands -
Malaysia 12
Myanmar 25
Mongolia
Nauru -
New Zealand 54
Papua New Guinea -
Philippines 13,889
Sarawak -
Singapore 19
Taiwan 3,923
Thailand 3,269
Tonga -
Vietnam 15,620
Albania -
Austria 25
Belgium 121
Bosnia and Herzegovina -
Bulgaria 3
Croatia -
Cyprus 321
Czechoslovakia 4
Denmark 78
Finland 29
France 41,331
German Democratic Republic -
Germany 254,057
Gibraltar 3
Greece 2,796
Greenland 4,654
Hungary 5
Iceland 2,632
Ireland 17
Italy 10,265
Luxembourg 5
Macedonia -
Malta 27
Netherlands 903
Norway 339
Poland 19
Portugal 2,215
Romania 5
Russia 53
Serbia and Montenegro -
Slovakia -
Spain 13,418
Sweden 24
Switzerland 23
United Kingdom 27,438
Vatican City -
Yugoslavia 27
Armenia -
Azerbaijan -
Belarus -
Estonia -
Georgia -
Kazakhstan -
Kyrgyzstan -
Latvia -
Lithuania -
Moldova -
Slovenia -
Tajikistan -
Turkmenistan -
Ukraine -
Uzbekistan -
Aden -
Afghanistan 22
Algeria 13
Bahrein / Bahrain 17
Bangladesh -
Diego Garcia -
Egypt 74
India 155
Iran 624
Iraq 18
Israel 41
Jordan 13
Kashmir -
Kuwait -
Lebanon 31
Morocco 2,378
Nepal 8
Oman -
Pakistan 1,380
Qatar -
Saudi Arabia 315
Sri Lanka / Ceylon 14
Sudan 9
Syria 9
Tunisia 8
Turkey 10,475
United Arab Emirates -
Western Sahara -
Yemen -
Angola -
Botswana -
Burkina Faso -
Burundi 2
Cameroon 3
Central African Republic -
Chad -
Congo - Democratic Republic 64
Congo - Republic of 10
Djibouti -
Eritrea -
Ethiopia 1,608
Gabon -
Gambia, The -
Ghana 9
Guinea -
Guinea-Bissau -
Ivory Coast (Cote d'Ivorie) 14
Kenya -
Lesotho -
Liberia 21
Libya 3,586
Madagascar 10
Malawi -
Mali 4
Mauritania -
Mauritius -
Mozambique -
Namibia -
Niger -
Nigeria 9
Rwanda -
Senegal 4
Seychelles Island -
Sierra Leone -
Somali Republic 9
South Africa 23
St. Helena 1
Tanzania -
Togo -
Uganda -
Zambia -
Zimbabwe -
Antigua -
Argentina 77
Aruba 8
Bahamas 364
Barbados -
Belize -
Bermuda 3,019
Bolivia 76
Brazil 185
British Virgin Islands -
British West Indies Federation 214
Canada 11,484
Chile 67
Colombia 68
Costa Rica 18
Cuba / Guantanamo 3,471
Dominican Republic 75
Ecuador 76
El Salvador 31
Grenada -
Guatemala 66
Guyana -
Haiti 8
Honduras 29
Jamaica 2
Mexico 28
Nicaragua 26
Panama 9,382
Paraguay 33
Peru 77
St. Lucia -
Suriname 5
Trinidad 237
Turks Island -
Uruguay 41
Venezuela 109

I have no idea what your point is with this...
I assume it's another attempt on your part to move the conversation away from your "failed witness", Saunders?
 
U.S. Troop Deployment Dataset ... 9, DOD Deployment of Military Personnel by Country

s3.amazonaws.com/thf_media/2004/pdf/troopMarch2005.xls


Country 1963
East Asia 183,637
Europe 360,837
Middle East 15,604
Africa 5,377
Americas 29,276
TOTAL - WORLDWIDE 2,695,240
Total - Foreign (Ashore and Afloat) 731,045
Total - Foreign (Sum) 594,731
% Troops Foreign/Worldwide (Sum) 22.1
Continental U.S. 1,695,380
Alaska 31,583
Antarctic Region 335
Guam 7,731
Hawaiian Islands -
Johnston Island 126
Marshall Islands 152
Midway 1,685
Puerto Rico 9,295
Samoan Islands -
Transients -
Virgin Islands -
Volcano Islands (Iwo Jima) 686
Wake Island 38
Eniwetok (J.T.F. 7) -
Federated state of Micronesia -
Northern Mariana Islands -
Palau -
Trust Territory of Pacific Islands -
US Miscellaneous Pacific -

Australia 217
Brunei -
Cambodia 70
China -
Easter Island -
Fiji and Tonga -
Hong Kong 30
Indonesia 46
Japan 89,454
Korea, Democratic Peoples Republic of -
Korea, Republic of 56,910
Laos 99
Line Islands -
Malaysia 12
Myanmar 25
Mongolia
Nauru -
New Zealand 54
Papua New Guinea -
Philippines 13,889
Sarawak -
Singapore 19
Taiwan 3,923
Thailand 3,269
Tonga -
Vietnam 15,620
Albania -
Austria 25
Belgium 121
Bosnia and Herzegovina -
Bulgaria 3
Croatia -
Cyprus 321
Czechoslovakia 4
Denmark 78
Finland 29
France 41,331
German Democratic Republic -
Germany 254,057
Gibraltar 3
Greece 2,796
Greenland 4,654
Hungary 5
Iceland 2,632
Ireland 17
Italy 10,265
Luxembourg 5
Macedonia -
Malta 27
Netherlands 903
Norway 339
Poland 19
Portugal 2,215
Romania 5
Russia 53
Serbia and Montenegro -
Slovakia -
Spain 13,418
Sweden 24
Switzerland 23
United Kingdom 27,438
Vatican City -
Yugoslavia 27
Armenia -
Azerbaijan -
Belarus -
Estonia -
Georgia -
Kazakhstan -
Kyrgyzstan -
Latvia -
Lithuania -
Moldova -
Slovenia -
Tajikistan -
Turkmenistan -
Ukraine -
Uzbekistan -
Aden -
Afghanistan 22
Algeria 13
Bahrein / Bahrain 17
Bangladesh -
Diego Garcia -
Egypt 74
India 155
Iran 624
Iraq 18
Israel 41
Jordan 13
Kashmir -
Kuwait -
Lebanon 31
Morocco 2,378
Nepal 8
Oman -
Pakistan 1,380
Qatar -
Saudi Arabia 315
Sri Lanka / Ceylon 14
Sudan 9
Syria 9
Tunisia 8
Turkey 10,475
United Arab Emirates -
Western Sahara -
Yemen -
Angola -
Botswana -
Burkina Faso -
Burundi 2
Cameroon 3
Central African Republic -
Chad -
Congo - Democratic Republic 64
Congo - Republic of 10
Djibouti -
Eritrea -
Ethiopia 1,608
Gabon -
Gambia, The -
Ghana 9
Guinea -
Guinea-Bissau -
Ivory Coast (Cote d'Ivorie) 14
Kenya -
Lesotho -
Liberia 21
Libya 3,586
Madagascar 10
Malawi -
Mali 4
Mauritania -
Mauritius -
Mozambique -
Namibia -
Niger -
Nigeria 9
Rwanda -
Senegal 4
Seychelles Island -
Sierra Leone -
Somali Republic 9
South Africa 23
St. Helena 1
Tanzania -
Togo -
Uganda -
Zambia -
Zimbabwe -
Antigua -
Argentina 77
Aruba 8
Bahamas 364
Barbados -
Belize -
Bermuda 3,019
Bolivia 76
Brazil 185
British Virgin Islands -
British West Indies Federation 214
Canada 11,484
Chile 67
Colombia 68
Costa Rica 18
Cuba / Guantanamo 3,471
Dominican Republic 75
Ecuador 76
El Salvador 31
Grenada -
Guatemala 66
Guyana -
Haiti 8
Honduras 29
Jamaica 2
Mexico 28
Nicaragua 26
Panama 9,382
Paraguay 33
Peru 77
St. Lucia -
Suriname 5
Trinidad 237
Turks Island -
Uruguay 41
Venezuela 109

I have no idea what your point is with this...
I assume it's another attempt on your part to move the conversation away from your "failed witness", Saunders?

This puts some point of reference to how many troops were in Vietnam vs other countries. We had almost the same number of troops in the Philippines, Spain, Italy, and Turkey and a lot less than Japan, Germany, Korea, England and other countries.

Funny, you have latched on the the term "rocketing" of the number of US troops"...

If what Kennedy did is "rocketing", what term would you use for what Johnson did? But of course Johnson gets a complete pass by you. Why is that? Are you THAT dishonest and unable to admit the truth??

Kennedy increased the number of troops to 16,000. Johnson increased the number to 500,000 and commited combat troops, battalions, divisions and units. During the 3 years of the Kennedy administration 187 American servicemen were killed. Under Johnson that was surpassed every TWO WEEKS!

There is NO WAY Kennedy is responsible for what Johnson did. That is really ignorant on your part.
 
As Saunders pointed out...if you look at what Kennedy had ACTUALLY DONE rather than speculating on what he might have done it's hard to see JFK withdrawing all of our troops and far more likely that he would have continued to increase the number of troops in Vietnam. You could make the argument that it was unlikely that Eisenhower would have increased troop levels dramatically because he didn't do so. You can make the argument that Nixon would have decreased the number of troops because that's what he DID. You can't make the same argument for either Kennedy or for Johnson because BOTH increased troop levels substantially. THAT is what Saunders is referring to when she talks of Kennedy's "rocketing" of the number of US troops in Vietnam and THAT is why Saunders is highly skeptical of those who believe Kennedy was about to pull out of Vietnam.

Your problem is that Kennedy's "policy" never was acted upon and you REALLY don't have any way of knowing if it ever would have been other than the Monday Morning quarterbacking done by people like Robert McNamara trying to paint John F. Kennedy in a favorable light. Saunders (and myself) are going by Kennedy's actions...you are going by a "plan" that may or may not have ever been carried out.

Your problem is you want to just ignore the official US policy Kennedy signed, supported and WAS acted upon. We DID begin to withdraw the first 1,000 troops before the end of 1963. But Kennedy was murdered, and at the very moment he expired in Trauma Room One at Parkland Hospital it became Lyndon Johnson's Vietnam. If Kennedy planned on continuing to escalate our troop levels, WHY THE HELL would he even create an official policy of withdrawal?

WHAT was the official US policy on Vietnam the day Kennedy died? Can you answer that honestly?


For the umpteenth time...Kennedy created a plan to withdraw US troops because he'd been advised that the war was going so well that all that was needed was for the South Vietnamese to do a little "mopping up". That was not the case. The assassination of the Diem brothers came after Kennedy's "plan" was drawn up and South Vietnam was in a state of turmoil. A complete pull out of US troops at that point would have almost certainly led to an immediate takeover by the communists. So is it your contention that Kennedy didn't have a problem with that? Because if you look at his repeated statements leading up to that point Kennedy was adamant about not pulling out of Vietnam.

You keep making the same false statements even after I have proven you wrong. Why is that?

Kennedy was NOT receiving optimistic reports.

From October 11 onward the CIA’s reporting changed drastically. Official optimism was replaced by a searching and comparatively realistic pessimism, which involved rewriting assessments as far back as the previous July, was a response to NSAM 263. (The withdrawal policy)
 
U.S. Troop Deployment Dataset ... 9, DOD Deployment of Military Personnel by Country

s3.amazonaws.com/thf_media/2004/pdf/troopMarch2005.xls


Country 1963
East Asia 183,637
Europe 360,837
Middle East 15,604
Africa 5,377
Americas 29,276
TOTAL - WORLDWIDE 2,695,240
Total - Foreign (Ashore and Afloat) 731,045
Total - Foreign (Sum) 594,731
% Troops Foreign/Worldwide (Sum) 22.1
Continental U.S. 1,695,380
Alaska 31,583
Antarctic Region 335
Guam 7,731
Hawaiian Islands -
Johnston Island 126
Marshall Islands 152
Midway 1,685
Puerto Rico 9,295
Samoan Islands -
Transients -
Virgin Islands -
Volcano Islands (Iwo Jima) 686
Wake Island 38
Eniwetok (J.T.F. 7) -
Federated state of Micronesia -
Northern Mariana Islands -
Palau -
Trust Territory of Pacific Islands -
US Miscellaneous Pacific -

Australia 217
Brunei -
Cambodia 70
China -
Easter Island -
Fiji and Tonga -
Hong Kong 30
Indonesia 46
Japan 89,454
Korea, Democratic Peoples Republic of -
Korea, Republic of 56,910
Laos 99
Line Islands -
Malaysia 12
Myanmar 25
Mongolia
Nauru -
New Zealand 54
Papua New Guinea -
Philippines 13,889
Sarawak -
Singapore 19
Taiwan 3,923
Thailand 3,269
Tonga -
Vietnam 15,620
Albania -
Austria 25
Belgium 121
Bosnia and Herzegovina -
Bulgaria 3
Croatia -
Cyprus 321
Czechoslovakia 4
Denmark 78
Finland 29
France 41,331
German Democratic Republic -
Germany 254,057
Gibraltar 3
Greece 2,796
Greenland 4,654
Hungary 5
Iceland 2,632
Ireland 17
Italy 10,265
Luxembourg 5
Macedonia -
Malta 27
Netherlands 903
Norway 339
Poland 19
Portugal 2,215
Romania 5
Russia 53
Serbia and Montenegro -
Slovakia -
Spain 13,418
Sweden 24
Switzerland 23
United Kingdom 27,438
Vatican City -
Yugoslavia 27
Armenia -
Azerbaijan -
Belarus -
Estonia -
Georgia -
Kazakhstan -
Kyrgyzstan -
Latvia -
Lithuania -
Moldova -
Slovenia -
Tajikistan -
Turkmenistan -
Ukraine -
Uzbekistan -
Aden -
Afghanistan 22
Algeria 13
Bahrein / Bahrain 17
Bangladesh -
Diego Garcia -
Egypt 74
India 155
Iran 624
Iraq 18
Israel 41
Jordan 13
Kashmir -
Kuwait -
Lebanon 31
Morocco 2,378
Nepal 8
Oman -
Pakistan 1,380
Qatar -
Saudi Arabia 315
Sri Lanka / Ceylon 14
Sudan 9
Syria 9
Tunisia 8
Turkey 10,475
United Arab Emirates -
Western Sahara -
Yemen -
Angola -
Botswana -
Burkina Faso -
Burundi 2
Cameroon 3
Central African Republic -
Chad -
Congo - Democratic Republic 64
Congo - Republic of 10
Djibouti -
Eritrea -
Ethiopia 1,608
Gabon -
Gambia, The -
Ghana 9
Guinea -
Guinea-Bissau -
Ivory Coast (Cote d'Ivorie) 14
Kenya -
Lesotho -
Liberia 21
Libya 3,586
Madagascar 10
Malawi -
Mali 4
Mauritania -
Mauritius -
Mozambique -
Namibia -
Niger -
Nigeria 9
Rwanda -
Senegal 4
Seychelles Island -
Sierra Leone -
Somali Republic 9
South Africa 23
St. Helena 1
Tanzania -
Togo -
Uganda -
Zambia -
Zimbabwe -
Antigua -
Argentina 77
Aruba 8
Bahamas 364
Barbados -
Belize -
Bermuda 3,019
Bolivia 76
Brazil 185
British Virgin Islands -
British West Indies Federation 214
Canada 11,484
Chile 67
Colombia 68
Costa Rica 18
Cuba / Guantanamo 3,471
Dominican Republic 75
Ecuador 76
El Salvador 31
Grenada -
Guatemala 66
Guyana -
Haiti 8
Honduras 29
Jamaica 2
Mexico 28
Nicaragua 26
Panama 9,382
Paraguay 33
Peru 77
St. Lucia -
Suriname 5
Trinidad 237
Turks Island -
Uruguay 41
Venezuela 109

I have no idea what your point is with this...
I assume it's another attempt on your part to move the conversation away from your "failed witness", Saunders?

This puts some point of reference to how many troops were in Vietnam vs other countries. We had almost the same number of troops in the Philippines, Spain, Italy, and Turkey and a lot less than Japan, Germany, Korea, England and other countries.

Funny, you have latched on the the term "rocketing" of the number of US troops"...

If what Kennedy did is "rocketing", what term would you use for what Johnson did? But of course Johnson gets a complete pass by you. Why is that? Are you THAT dishonest and unable to admit the truth??

Kennedy increased the number of troops to 16,000. Johnson increased the number to 500,000 and commited combat troops, battalions, divisions and units. During the 3 years of the Kennedy administration 187 American servicemen were killed. Under Johnson that was surpassed every TWO WEEKS!

There is NO WAY Kennedy is responsible for what Johnson did. That is really ignorant on your part.

What's "funny" is that Saunders is someone that YOU cited to prove that it was Eisenhower and Johnson who escalated the war in Vietnam and NOT Kennedy but you cherry picked parts of her article while leaving out the part where she used the term "rocketed" to describe how drastically Kennedy had increased troop levels!

Kennedy committed combat troops to Vietnam just like Johnson did. Kennedy continued to label those troops as "advisers", which is what they actually WERE under the Eisenhower Administration but under Kennedy those American troops were flying combat air missions and Green Berets were leading ground combat missions. It is THOSE actions by Kennedy that led Saunders to be so skeptical about Kennedy's "closet dove" label that his supporters have tried to posthumously award him.

Kennedy WOULD be blameless for the escalation that took place after his death except for the FACT that he STARTED that escalation in both the number of troops present in South Vietnam and what their missions there were.
 
As for troop levels "proving" something? Show me another country where the troop levels "rocketed" up under the Kennedy Administration like they did in South Vietnam! They went from 900 advisers under Eisenhower to 16,000 under Kennedy. Show me another locale where such a drastic increase took place! If you can't then you've proven my point that it WAS Kennedy who started the escalation of the Vietnam War that carried over to Johnson.
 
"Kennedy was NOT receiving optimistic reports. From October 11 onward the CIA’s reporting changed drastically. Official optimism was replaced by a searching and comparatively realistic pessimism, which involved rewriting assessments as far back as the previous July, was a response to NSAM 263. (The withdrawal policy)"

Which supports both Saunders and my contention that the policy that was drawn up under the previous optimistic assessments would most likely have been rethought since Kennedy was now receiving overwhelmingly pessimistic assessments. There is nothing in anything you've posted that shows Kennedy had changed his mind about stemming the spread of communism and supporting allies in their struggles to remain free. His statements on that policy remain consistent.
 
I have no idea what your point is with this...
I assume it's another attempt on your part to move the conversation away from your "failed witness", Saunders?

This puts some point of reference to how many troops were in Vietnam vs other countries. We had almost the same number of troops in the Philippines, Spain, Italy, and Turkey and a lot less than Japan, Germany, Korea, England and other countries.

Funny, you have latched on the the term "rocketing" of the number of US troops"...

If what Kennedy did is "rocketing", what term would you use for what Johnson did? But of course Johnson gets a complete pass by you. Why is that? Are you THAT dishonest and unable to admit the truth??

Kennedy increased the number of troops to 16,000. Johnson increased the number to 500,000 and commited combat troops, battalions, divisions and units. During the 3 years of the Kennedy administration 187 American servicemen were killed. Under Johnson that was surpassed every TWO WEEKS!

There is NO WAY Kennedy is responsible for what Johnson did. That is really ignorant on your part.

What's "funny" is that Saunders is someone that YOU cited to prove that it was Eisenhower and Johnson who escalated the war in Vietnam and NOT Kennedy but you cherry picked parts of her article while leaving out the part where she used the term "rocketed" to describe how drastically Kennedy had increased troop levels!

Kennedy committed combat troops to Vietnam just like Johnson did. Kennedy continued to label those troops as "advisers", which is what they actually WERE under the Eisenhower Administration but under Kennedy those American troops were flying combat air missions and Green Berets were leading ground combat missions. It is THOSE actions by Kennedy that led Saunders to be so skeptical about Kennedy's "closet dove" label that his supporters have tried to posthumously award him.

Kennedy WOULD be blameless for the escalation that took place after his death except for the FACT that he STARTED that escalation in both the number of troops present in South Vietnam and what their missions there were.

Kennedy is EXACTLY responsible for the escalation that took place under HIS administration. And he is NOT responsible for ANY escalation after he was DEAD.

Anyone with adult cognition could comprehend that FACT. But you can't...WHY is that?
 
"Kennedy was NOT receiving optimistic reports. From October 11 onward the CIA’s reporting changed drastically. Official optimism was replaced by a searching and comparatively realistic pessimism, which involved rewriting assessments as far back as the previous July, was a response to NSAM 263. (The withdrawal policy)"

Which supports both Saunders and my contention that the policy that was drawn up under the previous optimistic assessments would most likely have been rethought since Kennedy was now receiving overwhelmingly pessimistic assessments. There is nothing in anything you've posted that shows Kennedy had changed his mind about stemming the spread of communism and supporting allies in their struggles to remain free. His statements on that policy remain consistent.

YET, 2 days before Kennedy was assassinated, the official US policy was still in place; withdrawal of 1,000 troops by the end of 1963 (troops WERE withdrawn) and full withdrawal by the end on 1965.

AGAIN, you have a right to an OPINION, but that is all it is. An opinion that totally disregards what Kennedy DIDN'T do during the 1,000 days he was President. Bay of Pigs, Kennedy refused to invade the island, Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy refused to invade the island, Berlin Wall goes up, Kennedy refused to use any military force, Laos, Kennedy refused to send in troops and even Vietnam, Kennedy refused to send in troops. In the autumn of 1961, when Gen. Maxwell Taylor, a White House military adviser, and Walt Rostow returned from Vietnam recommending a commitment of 8,000 combat troops, Kennedy again rejected the proposal.

You have willfully engaged in the very thing you accuse me of..."cherry picking" and you continue to lie and make stuff up that is only based on what you 'feel' Kennedy would have done, and ignored what he DIDN'T do, what policy he put in place and what he told numerous people in and out of government.

You slander Arthur Schlesinger, Jr as a liar and anyone else who doesn't support your slander of Kennedy.

YET, HERE is what Arthur Schlesinger, Jr wrote in 1992. Hardly a man who is of the mindset you portray.

March 29, 1992

What Would He Have Done?
By ARTHUR SCHLESINGER JR.

What Would He Have Done?
 
"Kennedy was NOT receiving optimistic reports. From October 11 onward the CIA’s reporting changed drastically. Official optimism was replaced by a searching and comparatively realistic pessimism, which involved rewriting assessments as far back as the previous July, was a response to NSAM 263. (The withdrawal policy)"

Which supports both Saunders and my contention that the policy that was drawn up under the previous optimistic assessments would most likely have been rethought since Kennedy was now receiving overwhelmingly pessimistic assessments. There is nothing in anything you've posted that shows Kennedy had changed his mind about stemming the spread of communism and supporting allies in their struggles to remain free. His statements on that policy remain consistent.

YET, 2 days before Kennedy was assassinated, the official US policy was still in place; withdrawal of 1,000 troops by the end of 1963 (troops WERE withdrawn) and full withdrawal by the end on 1965.

AGAIN, you have a right to an OPINION, but that is all it is. An opinion that totally disregards what Kennedy DIDN'T do during the 1,000 days he was President. Bay of Pigs, Kennedy refused to invade the island, Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy refused to invade the island, Berlin Wall goes up, Kennedy refused to use any military force, Laos, Kennedy refused to send in troops and even Vietnam, Kennedy refused to send in troops. In the autumn of 1961, when Gen. Maxwell Taylor, a White House military adviser, and Walt Rostow returned from Vietnam recommending a commitment of 8,000 combat troops, Kennedy again rejected the proposal.

You have willfully engaged in the very thing you accuse me of..."cherry picking" and you continue to lie and make stuff up that is only based on what you 'feel' Kennedy would have done, and ignored what he DIDN'T do, what policy he put in place and what he told numerous people in and out of government.

You slander Arthur Schlesinger, Jr as a liar and anyone else who doesn't support your slander of Kennedy.

YET, HERE is what Arthur Schlesinger, Jr wrote in 1992. Hardly a man who is of the mindset you portray.

March 29, 1992

What Would He Have Done?
By ARTHUR SCHLESINGER JR.

What Would He Have Done?

Did you REALLY just make the statement that Kennedy didn't send troops to Vietnam? Under Ike there were about 900 advisers in Vietnam...under Kennedy there were over 16,000 troops in Vietnam! If Kennedy didn't send them...who the heck DID?:cuckoo::cuckoo::cuckoo:
 
And how exactly have I "slandered" Kennedy? All I've done is point out what he did while President. Is it "slander" to point out that Kennedy DID in fact escalate the scale of conflict in Vietnam?
 
"Kennedy was NOT receiving optimistic reports. From October 11 onward the CIA’s reporting changed drastically. Official optimism was replaced by a searching and comparatively realistic pessimism, which involved rewriting assessments as far back as the previous July, was a response to NSAM 263. (The withdrawal policy)"

Which supports both Saunders and my contention that the policy that was drawn up under the previous optimistic assessments would most likely have been rethought since Kennedy was now receiving overwhelmingly pessimistic assessments. There is nothing in anything you've posted that shows Kennedy had changed his mind about stemming the spread of communism and supporting allies in their struggles to remain free. His statements on that policy remain consistent.

YET, 2 days before Kennedy was assassinated, the official US policy was still in place; withdrawal of 1,000 troops by the end of 1963 (troops WERE withdrawn) and full withdrawal by the end on 1965.

AGAIN, you have a right to an OPINION, but that is all it is. An opinion that totally disregards what Kennedy DIDN'T do during the 1,000 days he was President. Bay of Pigs, Kennedy refused to invade the island, Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy refused to invade the island, Berlin Wall goes up, Kennedy refused to use any military force, Laos, Kennedy refused to send in troops and even Vietnam, Kennedy refused to send in troops. In the autumn of 1961, when Gen. Maxwell Taylor, a White House military adviser, and Walt Rostow returned from Vietnam recommending a commitment of 8,000 combat troops, Kennedy again rejected the proposal.

You have willfully engaged in the very thing you accuse me of..."cherry picking" and you continue to lie and make stuff up that is only based on what you 'feel' Kennedy would have done, and ignored what he DIDN'T do, what policy he put in place and what he told numerous people in and out of government.

You slander Arthur Schlesinger, Jr as a liar and anyone else who doesn't support your slander of Kennedy.

YET, HERE is what Arthur Schlesinger, Jr wrote in 1992. Hardly a man who is of the mindset you portray.

March 29, 1992

What Would He Have Done?
By ARTHUR SCHLESINGER JR.

What Would He Have Done?

Did you REALLY just make the statement that Kennedy didn't send troops to Vietnam? Under Ike there were about 900 advisers in Vietnam...under Kennedy there were over 16,000 troops in Vietnam! If Kennedy didn't send them...who the heck DID?:cuckoo::cuckoo::cuckoo:

Do you have a reading problem, or a comprehension problem? Do you know what 'combat troops' are?

John Newman spent years researching ONE question. Would John F. Kennedy have escalated Vietnam into AMERICA's war.

"JFK and Vietnam" is the most solid contribution yet to such speculation. Its author is John M. Newman, a retired Army officer with years of service in East Asia, now teaching East Asian history at the University of Maryland. His book is based on a meticulous and exhaustive examination of documents, many newly declassified -- internal memorandums, cables, transcripts of phone conversations, minutes of meetings, intelligence reports -- supplemented by oral histories in Presidential libraries and by interviews with people involved with Vietnam policy at the time. The narrative is straightforward and workmanlike, rather military in organization, tone and style.

His book's thesis is that Kennedy "would never have placed American combat troops in Vietnam" and that he was preparing for the withdrawal of the military advisers by the end of 1965. The Joint Chiefs of Staff began urging the commitment of combat units, Mr. Newman shows, as early as three months after Kennedy's inauguration. The Chiefs' wretched performance in endorsing the Bay of Pigs invasion and in proposing military intervention in Laos had fortunately disillusioned the President, and he rejected this advice then and thereafter. In the autumn of 1961, when Gen. Maxwell Taylor, a White House military adviser, and Walt Rostow returned from Vietnam recommending a commitment of 8,000 combat troops, Kennedy again rejected the proposal. As Mr. Newman writes: "There Kennedy drew the line. He would not go beyond it at any time during the rest of his Presidency."

I must declare an interest in this argument. I well remember the President's reaction to the Taylor-Rostow report. "They want a force of American troops," he told me. "The troops will march in; the bands will play; the crowds will cheer; and in four days everyone will have forgotten. Then we will be told we have to send in more troops. It's like taking a drink. The effect wears off and you have to take another."

Mr. Newman is, I think, essentially right about Kennedy. Whether Kennedy was right is a question Mr. Newman does not face. Would the outcome have been better had the President sent an American expeditionary force in 1961? I doubt it -- for reasons much on Kennedy's mind. Mr. Newman does not mention Kennedy's reaction, when he visited Vietnam as a young Congressman in 1951, to the French colonial army; but this was crucial in his skepticism about American military intervention. The war in Vietnam, he used to say, could be won only so long as it was a Vietnamese war. If we converted it into a white man's war, we would lose as the French had lost a decade earlier. (This is not latter-day recollection; I wrote it all nearly 30 years ago in "A Thousand Days.")

Nor does Mr. Newman mention Kennedy's relish in citing Gen. Douglas MacArthur's statement to him that it would be "a mistake" to fight in Southeast Asia. Kennedy recorded this statement in an aide-memoire, something he rarely did, and, as General Taylor later recalled, "whenever he'd get this military advice from the Joint Chiefs or from me or anyone else, he'd say, 'Well, now, you gentlemen, you go back and convince General MacArthur, then I'll be convinced.' " Kennedy's private remarks to Senator Mike Mansfield, the majority leader, to Senator Wayne Morse, to Roger Hilsman, to Michael Forrestal, the National Security Council man on Vietnam, to Kenneth O'Donnell, his appointments secretary, and to Lester Pearson, the Canadian Prime Minister, further confirm his desire to withdraw.

For all the rhetoric of his inaugural address about paying any price, bearing any burden, meeting any hardship, Kennedy was an eminently rational man, not inclined to heavy investments in lost causes. He was prepared to be as tough as necessary when vital interests were involved, but he was no war lover. His foreign policy displayed a characteristic capacity to refuse escalation when it made no sense -- as in Laos, the Bay of Pigs, the Berlin wall confrontation, the missile crisis.

He believed from the start that the United States was, as he often said (privately), "overcommitted" in Indochina. As Mr. Newman reports, on April 6, 1962, he told Averell Harriman, then Assistant Secretary for Far Eastern Affairs, and Michael Forrestal to be prepared to "seize upon any favorable moment to reduce our commitment." But the Joint Chiefs kept up their clamor for military intervention. In a hysterical January 1962 memorandum cited by Mr. Newman, they predicted that "the fall of South Vietnam to Communist control would mean the eventual Communist domination of all of the Southeast Asian mainland" and that most of Asia would capitulate to what the military still stubbornly called the "Sino-Soviet Bloc." Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara declined to endorse this extravagance, and such hyperbole confirmed Kennedy's low opinion of the military.

KENNEDY made concessions about advisers, but he held the line against troops. The commitment of combat units, he observed in March 1962 with a deference to the Constitution not notable among his successors, "calls for a constitutional decision, [ and ] of course I would go to the Congress." In July 1962 he directed the Pentagon to come up with a plan for the withdrawal of the advisers by the end of 1965. The plan was approved in May 1963, with the first 1,000 men to be returned at the end of that year.
 
Your contention that we didn't have "combat" troops in Vietnam under Kennedy is laughable! Under Ike we had 900 "advisers" who's primary mission was to train the South Vietnamese. Under Kennedy we had sixteen thousand troops who's mission had been changed to include flying combat missions and leading anti-insurgency missions on the ground. Just because Kennedy didn't CALL them combat troops doesn't mean that they weren't! Ike didn't introduce the widespread use of napalm into Vietnam...that was JFK! Ike didn't introduce the widespread use of defoliants into Vietnam that was JFK as well! The fact of the matter is that Kennedy took us to war in Vietnam and Johnson continued Kennedy's policies when he was assassinated. Calling people "advisers" who are dropping napalm and shooting the enemy doesn't magically make them non-combatants...no matter how much you Kennedy apologists would LIKE it to!
 
Last edited:
And the fact that Johnson escalated that conflict far beyond what Kennedy did, doesn't change what JFK did before Johnson took office. Kennedy profoundly changed what we were doing in Vietnam after he replaced Dwight Eisenhower. He decided that Vietnam was one of the places that he would draw a line in the sand against communism...a policy that he REPEATEDLY put forth all through his thousand days.

You have once again failed to show that Kennedy was willing to walk away from South Vietnam and let it fall to the communists which was a given if he had pulled out US troops starting in 1963.
 
And the fact that Johnson escalated that conflict far beyond what Kennedy did, doesn't change what JFK did before Johnson took office. Kennedy profoundly changed what we were doing in Vietnam after he replaced Dwight Eisenhower. He decided that Vietnam was one of the places that he would draw a line in the sand against communism...a policy that he REPEATEDLY put forth all through his thousand days.

You have once again failed to show that Kennedy was willing to walk away from South Vietnam and let it fall to the communists which was a given if he had pulled out US troops starting in 1963.

Kennedy is responsible for EXACTLY what he did...NOTHING MORE. 16,000 troops. Had he lived and even if he didn't pull out all troops by 1965, the troop level and casualties for 5 more years would have made Vietnam a footnote in history. JOHNSON escalated WAY WAY WAY beyond what Kennedy DID or WOULD have done. Johnson turned Vietnam into a major American war. Kennedy DIDN'T. But you want to tag Kennedy with what Johnson did. That is either dishonest or obtuse. Which one is it?
 
Your contention that we didn't have "combat" troops in Vietnam under Kennedy is laughable! Under Ike we had 900 "advisers" who's primary mission was to train the South Vietnamese. Under Kennedy we had sixteen thousand troops who's mission had been changed to include flying combat missions and leading anti-insurgency missions on the ground. Just because Kennedy didn't CALL them combat troops doesn't mean that they weren't! Ike didn't introduce the widespread use of napalm into Vietnam...that was JFK! Ike didn't introduce the widespread use of defoliants into Vietnam that was JFK as well! The fact of the matter is that Kennedy took us to war in Vietnam and Johnson continued Kennedy's policies when he was assassinated. Calling people "advisers" who are dropping napalm and shooting the enemy doesn't magically make them non-combatants...no matter how much you Kennedy apologists would LIKE it to!

I have ALREADY admitted that Kennedy escalated our troop level. But Kennedy in NO WAY, SHAPE or FORM is responsible for sending in US divisions and battalions of 500,000 combat troops. There were 187 total US casualties during the 3 Kennedy years, that went to 100 casualties per week under Johnson.

WHEN are you going to admit that the official US policy on the day Kennedy died was to withdraw 1,000 troops by the end of 1963 and full withdrawal by the end of 1965?
 
And the fact that Johnson escalated that conflict far beyond what Kennedy did, doesn't change what JFK did before Johnson took office. Kennedy profoundly changed what we were doing in Vietnam after he replaced Dwight Eisenhower. He decided that Vietnam was one of the places that he would draw a line in the sand against communism...a policy that he REPEATEDLY put forth all through his thousand days.

You have once again failed to show that Kennedy was willing to walk away from South Vietnam and let it fall to the communists which was a given if he had pulled out US troops starting in 1963.

Kennedy is responsible for EXACTLY what he did...NOTHING MORE. 16,000 troops. Had he lived and even if he didn't pull out all troops by 1965, the troop level and casualties for 5 more years would have made Vietnam a footnote in history. JOHNSON escalated WAY WAY WAY beyond what Kennedy DID or WOULD have done. Johnson turned Vietnam into a major American war. Kennedy DIDN'T. But you want to tag Kennedy with what Johnson did. That is either dishonest or obtuse. Which one is it?

I'm not "tagging" Kennedy with what Johnson did...I'm "tagging" him with what HE did! Kennedy escalated the war in Vietnam in a major way...turning the US military's mission there from the training that they were doing under Eisenhower...to the combat missions that they were doing on a large scale.

As for what Kennedy "WOULD" have done? You don't know what he would have done! It's possible he would have kept troop levels at the rate they were when he was killed. It's also quite possible that he would have increased them just as he increased them following Eisenhower. Why? Because even though Kennedy and many of his advisers correctly viewed Southeast Asia as a potential quagmire they were STILL adamant about preventing the spread of communism which means you've got conflicting "policies". On the one hand you've got Kennedy's oft stated declaration that the US would defend free nations against communist takeovers...and on the other you've got his plan to withdraw troops from South Vietnam. Obviously something has to give...
 

Forum List

Back
Top