Our Kennedy.

[Oldstyle]

I can agree, had he lived, the official policy of the United States on Vietnam may have changed under JFK, but he didn't change the plan before he died. The official US policy on the day he died was to withdraw 1,000 troops by the end of 1963 and full withdrawal by the end of 1965. It was Johnson, not Kennedy who changed that policy. The moment Kennedy died, Vietnam became Johnson's. And everything that followed became Johnson's, NOT Kennedy's Vietnam.

Kennedy had explored negotiations with the Soviet Union to help end the conflict in Vietnam. He had begun secret negotiations to normalize relations with Cuba. I am very confident had Kennedy lived, Vietnam would have never metastasized into a full scale war and a national tragedy.

Kennedy and Johnson were two totally different men, with totally different values and viewpoints. Kennedy didn't trust the Joint Chiefs, McNamara said Johnson wrote a "blank check" to the Joint Chiefs of Staff that turned over Vietnam to their strategists.

The highlighted portion of your response pretty much shoots a massive hole in your "official policy" theory, Bfgrn!

Do you agree or disagree that the official policy of the US was to contest the spread of communism? If so...then you've got conflicting "policies"! OBVIOUSLY something has to give. Kennedy can't contest the spread of communism AND walk away from South Vietnam. He may have WANTED to get us out of Vietnam (God knows it was a mess under the Diem brothers!) but that in no way means that it's definite that he WOULD have allowed an ally of ours to be defeated by the communists.

It doesn't shoot any holes in my contention that JFK would have never escalated Vietnam into a full blown war.

What is becoming clear is you are so insecure you are unable to accept any facts. You are drowning and refuse to grab the ring. I have proven that the official US policy on the day Kennedy died was withdrawal. He was about to replace war hawk Dean Rusk as Secretary of State with McNamara, who already believed Vietnam would not end in victory.

The fact remains and will always remain that the official US policy on the day Kennedy died was to withdraw 1,000 troops by the end of 1963 and full withdrawal by the end of 1965.

Kennedy would never make another decision in regards to Vietnam. The blame for what followed falls COMPLETELY on Lyndon Johnson.

And then you have admitted that policies change. So why don't you simply admit that you have no way of knowing whether or not Kennedy would have gone ahead and withdrawn all US troops by 1965? You're making a guess, based on what you'd like to THINK Kennedy would have done and you base that guess not on what Kennedy had done up to that point (which was to escalate the war substantially!) but on a "policy" that had been drawn up under the guidance of faulty information regarding South Vietnam's ability to defend itself without US troops.

And you STILL haven't explained how Kennedy's withdrawal "plan" would have fit in with his goal of stopping the spread of communism!

The fact is...Kennedy and McNamara were still committed to keeping South Vietnam from falling to the communists in 1963 despite McNamara's "Monday morning quarterbacking" years later.

 

[Bfgrn]

The highlighted portion of your response pretty much shoots a massive hole in your "official policy" theory, Bfgrn!

Do you agree or disagree that the official policy of the US was to contest the spread of communism? If so...then you've got conflicting "policies"! OBVIOUSLY something has to give. Kennedy can't contest the spread of communism AND walk away from South Vietnam. He may have WANTED to get us out of Vietnam (God knows it was a mess under the Diem brothers!) but that in no way means that it's definite that he WOULD have allowed an ally of ours to be defeated by the communists.

It doesn't shoot any holes in my contention that JFK would have never escalated Vietnam into a full blown war.

What is becoming clear is you are so insecure you are unable to accept any facts. You are drowning and refuse to grab the ring. I have proven that the official US policy on the day Kennedy died was withdrawal. He was about to replace war hawk Dean Rusk as Secretary of State with McNamara, who already believed Vietnam would not end in victory.

The fact remains and will always remain that the official US policy on the day Kennedy died was to withdraw 1,000 troops by the end of 1963 and full withdrawal by the end of 1965.

Kennedy would never make another decision in regards to Vietnam. The blame for what followed falls COMPLETELY on Lyndon Johnson.

And then you have admitted that policies change. So why don't you simply admit that you have no way of knowing whether or not Kennedy would have gone ahead and withdrawn all US troops by 1965? You're making a guess, based on what you'd like to THINK Kennedy would have done and you base that guess not on what Kennedy had done up to that point (which was to escalate the war substantially!) but on a "policy" that had been drawn up under the guidance of faulty information regarding South Vietnam's ability to defend itself without US troops.

And you STILL haven't explained how Kennedy's withdrawal "plan" would have fit in with his goal of stopping the spread of communism!

The fact is...Kennedy and McNamara were still committed to keeping South Vietnam from falling to the communists in 1963 despite McNamara's "Monday morning quarterbacking" years later.

You are reaching the desperate stage.

Policies do change. Lyndon Johnson changed our policy on Vietnam. NOT Kennedy. It is really that simple. As I said in the beginning, you have a right to an opinion on what Kennedy would have done. But the official policy the day Kennedy died will never be changed by Kennedy. EVERYTHING that followed falls on Johnson.

 

[Oldstyle]

Which official policy? The one that calls for troop withdrawals from Vietnam as we turn the fight over to an obviously unprepared South Vietnam...or the one that says we won't let our allies fall to communism?

You STILL haven't addressed how Kennedy would have achieved both...

 

[Bfgrn]

Which official policy? The one that calls for troop withdrawals from Vietnam as we turn the fight over to an obviously unprepared South Vietnam...or the one that says we won't let our allies fall to communism?

You STILL haven't addressed how Kennedy would have achieved both...

John F. Kennedy had formally decided to withdraw from Vietnam, whether we were winning or not. Robert McNamara, who did not believe we were winning, supported this decision. The first stage of withdrawal had been ordered. The final date, two years later, had been specified.

Kennedy was assassinated.

At 1pm CST on November 22, 1963, Vietnam became WHOLLY Johnson's, NOT Kennedy's.

 

[thanatos144]

Blah blah blah fact is John Fitzgerald Kennedy is not what the media prayed for him to be. He was just another progressive pansy just happened to be forced to lower taxes

tapatalk post

 

[Bfgrn]

Blah blah blah fact is John Fitzgerald Kennedy is not what the media prayed for him to be. He was just another progressive pansy just happened to be forced to lower taxes

tapatalk post

"Blah blah blah" is all you are capable of bringing to this thread. You are a typical right wing mental midget.

 

[Papageorgio]

Blah blah blah fact is John Fitzgerald Kennedy is not what the media prayed for him to be. He was just another progressive pansy just happened to be forced to lower taxes

tapatalk post

"Blah blah blah" is all you are capable of bringing to this thread. You are a typical right wing mental midget.

Funny how the "right wing mental midget" towers over you.

 

[Bfgrn]

Blah blah blah fact is John Fitzgerald Kennedy is not what the media prayed for him to be. He was just another progressive pansy just happened to be forced to lower taxes

tapatalk post

"Blah blah blah" is all you are capable of bringing to this thread. You are a typical right wing mental midget.

Funny how the "right wing mental midget" towers over you.

Only in your dreams pea brain. I have forgotten more about Kennedy than any of you right wingers will ever know.

The right wing mind has the depth of a mud puddle.

 

[Papageorgio]

"Blah blah blah" is all you are capable of bringing to this thread. You are a typical right wing mental midget.

Funny how the "right wing mental midget" towers over you.

Only in your dreams pea brain. I have forgotten more about Kennedy than any of you right wingers will ever know.

The right wing mind has the depth of a mud puddle.

Nice comeback....you sure show your great mind in the great comeback.

 

[Oldstyle]

Which official policy? The one that calls for troop withdrawals from Vietnam as we turn the fight over to an obviously unprepared South Vietnam...or the one that says we won't let our allies fall to communism?

You STILL haven't addressed how Kennedy would have achieved both...

John F. Kennedy had formally decided to withdraw from Vietnam, whether we were winning or not. Robert McNamara, who did not believe we were winning, supported this decision. The first stage of withdrawal had been ordered. The final date, two years later, had been specified.

Kennedy was assassinated.

At 1pm CST on November 22, 1963, Vietnam became WHOLLY Johnson's, NOT Kennedy's.

Once again...Kennedy made the decision to withdraw troops from Vietnam because he was told that the war was going so well that the South Vietnamese were capable of "mopping up" by themselves. He had not made a decision to abandon South Vietnam to the communists.

Unless you can show me that Kennedy HAD changed his policy of preventing the spread of communism then all your talk about what Kennedy would have done is simply a guess. Your contention that Robert McNamara supported abandoning the South Vietnamese is not backed up by his actions. You've chosen to believe McNamara's "version" of history that he wrote decades later in a valiant effort to buff up his good friend JFK's legacy.

 

[Bfgrn]

Funny how the "right wing mental midget" towers over you.

Only in your dreams pea brain. I have forgotten more about Kennedy than any of you right wingers will ever know.

The right wing mind has the depth of a mud puddle.

Nice comeback....you sure show your great mind in the great comeback.

You and thanatos have added NOTHING of substance to this thread. ZERO, zilch, nothing. You don't deserve anything but scorn and mocking.

 

[Bfgrn]

Which official policy? The one that calls for troop withdrawals from Vietnam as we turn the fight over to an obviously unprepared South Vietnam...or the one that says we won't let our allies fall to communism?

You STILL haven't addressed how Kennedy would have achieved both...

John F. Kennedy had formally decided to withdraw from Vietnam, whether we were winning or not. Robert McNamara, who did not believe we were winning, supported this decision. The first stage of withdrawal had been ordered. The final date, two years later, had been specified.

Kennedy was assassinated.

At 1pm CST on November 22, 1963, Vietnam became WHOLLY Johnson's, NOT Kennedy's.

Once again...Kennedy made the decision to withdraw troops from Vietnam because he was told that the war was going so well that the South Vietnamese were capable of "mopping up" by themselves. He had not made a decision to abandon South Vietnam to the communists.

Unless you can show me that Kennedy HAD changed his policy of preventing the spread of communism then all your talk about what Kennedy would have done is simply a guess. Your contention that Robert McNamara supported abandoning the South Vietnamese is not backed up by his actions. You've chosen to believe McNamara's "version" of history that he wrote decades later in a valiant effort to buff up his good friend JFK's legacy.

Declassified official documents and tape recordings support McNamara's claims.

Joint Chief of Staff documents show that Kennedy was well aware of the evidence that South Vietnam was, in fact, losing the war. But it hardly matters. The withdrawal decided on was unconditional, and did not depend on military progress or lack of it.

 

[thanatos144]

Only in your dreams pea brain. I have forgotten more about Kennedy than any of you right wingers will ever know.

The right wing mind has the depth of a mud puddle.

Nice comeback....you sure show your great mind in the great comeback.

You and thanatos have added NOTHING of substance to this thread. ZERO, zilch, nothing. You don't deserve anything but scorn and mocking.

It must hurt that people see your god JFK as what he is and not what you want us to see him as.

tapatalk post

 

[Bfgrn]

Nice comeback....you sure show your great mind in the great comeback.

You and thanatos have added NOTHING of substance to this thread. ZERO, zilch, nothing. You don't deserve anything but scorn and mocking.

It must hurt that people see your god JFK as what he is and not what you want us to see him as.

tapatalk post

I have a very good understanding of who Jack Kennedy was and who is wasn't. Do you? How much have you studied the man?

 

[thanatos144]

You and thanatos have added NOTHING of substance to this thread. ZERO, zilch, nothing. You don't deserve anything but scorn and mocking.

It must hurt that people see your god JFK as what he is and not what you want us to see him as.

tapatalk post

I have a very good understanding of who Jack Kennedy was and who is wasn't. Do you? How much have you studied the man?

Yes I do because his voting record is there for all of us to see. All his actions are there fir you to see. He was a racist womanizer and drunk who was easily out maneuvered by the Cubans and Russians

tapatalk post

 

[Papageorgio]

Only in your dreams pea brain. I have forgotten more about Kennedy than any of you right wingers will ever know.

The right wing mind has the depth of a mud puddle.

Nice comeback....you sure show your great mind in the great comeback.

You and thanatos have added NOTHING of substance to this thread. ZERO, zilch, nothing. You don't deserve anything but scorn and mocking.

All you have done is gone back and forth saying the same damn thing for hundreds of posts and you have one point and it fails miserably. So why take an idiot like you seriously?

 

[Bfgrn]

It must hurt that people see your god JFK as what he is and not what you want us to see him as.

tapatalk post

I have a very good understanding of who Jack Kennedy was and who is wasn't. Do you? How much have you studied the man?

Yes I do because his voting record is there for all of us to see. All his actions are there fir you to see. He was a racist womanizer and drunk who was easily out maneuvered by the Cubans and Russians

tapatalk post

Yes we do have his voting record, the agenda of the New Frontier and Kennedy's introduction of what became the Civil Rights Act of 1964. A womanizer? Yes. A racist? No. A drunk? No. Easily maneuvered by the Cubans and Russians? No. Kennedy's courage, determination strength and intelligence kept us from a nuclear WWIII.

 

[Oldstyle]

John F. Kennedy had formally decided to withdraw from Vietnam, whether we were winning or not. Robert McNamara, who did not believe we were winning, supported this decision. The first stage of withdrawal had been ordered. The final date, two years later, had been specified.

Kennedy was assassinated.

At 1pm CST on November 22, 1963, Vietnam became WHOLLY Johnson's, NOT Kennedy's.

Once again...Kennedy made the decision to withdraw troops from Vietnam because he was told that the war was going so well that the South Vietnamese were capable of "mopping up" by themselves. He had not made a decision to abandon South Vietnam to the communists.

Unless you can show me that Kennedy HAD changed his policy of preventing the spread of communism then all your talk about what Kennedy would have done is simply a guess. Your contention that Robert McNamara supported abandoning the South Vietnamese is not backed up by his actions. You've chosen to believe McNamara's "version" of history that he wrote decades later in a valiant effort to buff up his good friend JFK's legacy.

Declassified official documents and tape recordings support McNamara's claims.

Joint Chief of Staff documents show that Kennedy was well aware of the evidence that South Vietnam was, in fact, losing the war. But it hardly matters. The withdrawal decided on was unconditional, and did not depend on military progress or lack of it.

You keep talking about the plan to withdraw as if it was somehow written in stone and couldn't change in any way...which is complete and utter fantasy on your part! The withdrawal plan was TOTALLY BASED upon military progress! It was based on wishful thinking...wishful thinking that the war in South Vietnam was going so well that the South Vietnamese could take over the fight and keep the communists at bay. Despite your claim to the contrary, under Kennedy the US had shouldered a much larger portion of the actual fighting because the South Vietnamese were basically incompetent. The fact is, Kennedy had dramatically escalated the US's involvement in combat and the South Vietnamese were becoming increasingly dependent on us to fight the communists for them. Robert McNamara's rewriting of history decades later is nothing more than a self-serving attempt to paint what both he AND Kennedy did in Vietnam in a more favorable light.

 

[Bfgrn]

Once again...Kennedy made the decision to withdraw troops from Vietnam because he was told that the war was going so well that the South Vietnamese were capable of "mopping up" by themselves. He had not made a decision to abandon South Vietnam to the communists.

Unless you can show me that Kennedy HAD changed his policy of preventing the spread of communism then all your talk about what Kennedy would have done is simply a guess. Your contention that Robert McNamara supported abandoning the South Vietnamese is not backed up by his actions. You've chosen to believe McNamara's "version" of history that he wrote decades later in a valiant effort to buff up his good friend JFK's legacy.

Declassified official documents and tape recordings support McNamara's claims.

Joint Chief of Staff documents show that Kennedy was well aware of the evidence that South Vietnam was, in fact, losing the war. But it hardly matters. The withdrawal decided on was unconditional, and did not depend on military progress or lack of it.

You keep talking about the plan to withdraw as if it was somehow written in stone and couldn't change in any way...which is complete and utter fantasy on your part! The withdrawal plan was TOTALLY BASED upon military progress! It was based on wishful thinking...wishful thinking that the war in South Vietnam was going so well that the South Vietnamese could take over the fight and keep the communists at bay. Despite your claim to the contrary, under Kennedy the US had shouldered a much larger portion of the actual fighting because the South Vietnamese were basically incompetent. The fact is, Kennedy had dramatically escalated the US's involvement in combat and the South Vietnamese were becoming increasingly dependent on us to fight the communists for them. Robert McNamara's rewriting of history decades later is nothing more than a self-serving attempt to paint what both he AND Kennedy did in Vietnam in a more favorable light.

The policy was written in stone until someone changed it. Kennedy DIDN'T. Johnson DID. Why is that so hard to understand?

McNamara placed a very UN-favorable light upon himself.

 

[Oldstyle]

Declassified official documents and tape recordings support McNamara's claims.

Joint Chief of Staff documents show that Kennedy was well aware of the evidence that South Vietnam was, in fact, losing the war. But it hardly matters. The withdrawal decided on was unconditional, and did not depend on military progress or lack of it.

You keep talking about the plan to withdraw as if it was somehow written in stone and couldn't change in any way...which is complete and utter fantasy on your part! The withdrawal plan was TOTALLY BASED upon military progress! It was based on wishful thinking...wishful thinking that the war in South Vietnam was going so well that the South Vietnamese could take over the fight and keep the communists at bay. Despite your claim to the contrary, under Kennedy the US had shouldered a much larger portion of the actual fighting because the South Vietnamese were basically incompetent. The fact is, Kennedy had dramatically escalated the US's involvement in combat and the South Vietnamese were becoming increasingly dependent on us to fight the communists for them. Robert McNamara's rewriting of history decades later is nothing more than a self-serving attempt to paint what both he AND Kennedy did in Vietnam in a more favorable light.

The policy was written in stone until someone changed it. Kennedy DIDN'T. Johnson DID. Why is that so hard to understand?

McNamara placed a very UN-favorable light upon himself.

So your contention is that it was impossible for Kennedy to change the policy on troop withdrawals? Is that what you're saying? I think we both know that's not the case. Kennedy very well may not have withdrawn the initial thousand troops in 1963. He may not have withdrawn the rest before 1965. He was still steadfast in his determination to stem the spread of communism as is evident in the speech that he would have given in Dallas the very day that he was assassinated.

You still haven't shown me how a total withdrawal of American troops from South Vietnam by Kennedy correlates with his pledge to support our allies in a fight against the evils of communism. How does Kennedy walk away from Vietnam (something you've declared was set in stone) when to do so would have essentially been a surrender of South East Asia to the communists at the height of the Cold War? How does he do THAT?