Our founding fathers were not conservative

[JBeukema]

At the risk of repeating myself.... it is ridiculous to compare the beliefs of the founders to either 'liberals' or 'conservatives' as we understand those terms today.

The founders were individuals. Fact. They didn't all think alike. Fact. Y'all look like fools arguing this shit. Fact.

They were Liberals by definition. Adherents of Liberalism.


Anyone who denies that fact is ignorant at best.

 

[Intense]

At the risk of repeating myself.... it is ridiculous to compare the beliefs of the founders to either 'liberals' or 'conservatives' as we understand those terms today.

The founders were individuals. Fact. They didn't all think alike. Fact. Y'all look like fools arguing this shit. Fact.

They were Liberals by definition. Adherents of Liberalism.


Anyone who denies that fact is ignorant at best.

They were Anti Tyrant, Anti Statist. Liberalism Today is the opposite. Ignorance has nothing to do with it. They wanted Liberty.

 

[Agit8r]

Nope.

Washington and Hamilton were advocates of a strong central government..Jefferson and Madison were not. Both are liberal views..and that is part and parcel with Liberalism. The acceptance or tolerance of views you may not agree with.

Conservatives hold no such value.

You're confusing your isms'.

Liberalism is not Socialism/Fascism.

And Marxism is not even remotely liberal.

Liberalism means allowing everyone to live their lives in freedom....not under the thumb of an abusive government.

Classical Liberalism.... that's not what today's 'liberals' are. They hide behind the label. What they really are is socialists. I have no problem with people believing in socialism... unless they are too cowardly to admit it.

The Jeffersonian ideology was a different sort of LIBERALISM than either of those. It was that no one should be under the oppressive thumb of government OR the thumb of feudal lords

"we both consider the people as our children, and love them with parental affection. But you love them as infants whom you are afraid to trust without nurses; and I as adults whom I freely leave to self-government." -- Thomas Jefferson (to P. S. Dupont De Nemours, April 24, 1816)

"I hope we shall take warning from the example [of England] and crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to George Logan (Nov. 16, 1916)

 

[Intense]

You're confusing your isms'.

Liberalism is not Socialism/Fascism.

And Marxism is not even remotely liberal.

Liberalism means allowing everyone to live their lives in freedom....not under the thumb of an abusive government.

Classical Liberalism.... that's not what today's 'liberals' are. They hide behind the label. What they really are is socialists. I have no problem with people believing in socialism... unless they are too cowardly to admit it.

The Jeffersonian ideology was a different sort of LIBERALISM than either of those. It was that no one should be under the oppressive thumb of government OR the thumb of feudal lords

"we both consider the people as our children, and love them with parental affection. But you love them as infants whom you are afraid to trust without nurses; and I as adults whom I freely leave to self-government." -- Thomas Jefferson (to P. S. Dupont De Nemours, April 24, 1816)

"I hope we shall take warning from the example [of England] and crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to George Logan (Nov. 16, 1916)

More than that. He knew that power corrupts, and was plain Anti Tyranny, no matter the form.

 

[Agit8r]

Classical Liberalism.... that's not what today's 'liberals' are. They hide behind the label. What they really are is socialists. I have no problem with people believing in socialism... unless they are too cowardly to admit it.

The Jeffersonian ideology was a different sort of LIBERALISM than either of those. It was that no one should be under the oppressive thumb of government OR the thumb of feudal lords

"we both consider the people as our children, and love them with parental affection. But you love them as infants whom you are afraid to trust without nurses; and I as adults whom I freely leave to self-government." -- Thomas Jefferson (to P. S. Dupont De Nemours, April 24, 1816)

"I hope we shall take warning from the example [of England] and crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to George Logan (Nov. 16, 1916)

More than that. He knew that power corrupts, and was plain Anti Tyranny, no matter the form.

Exactly. But including Madison in the Jeffersonian party, let's recall that "ambition must be made to counteract ambition"

 

[mudwhistle]

conservative: favouring the status quo or a return to the status quo ante


they were called tories or loyalists

Conservative: favoring traditional views or values.

Glib one liners don't actually add value.

definitions are not glip one-liners

they are definitions

Problem is if you don't fit the definition you're not it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I understand them.

Nothing has been actually nationalized. But the government has seized control of two auto companies, the FED, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, put the clamps on oil production, shoved a national Health Care insurance program down our throats, taken over banks and investment firms, put massive controls on the financial industry. Need I say more???

We're tilting strongly toward Socialism. I dare you to say otherwise.

As for your premise and your assumptions...shove it up your ass.

You have backed off! Good for you. The banks are paying the monies off and the tax payers are making money on the bail out. The auto companies are steadily retiring their debt to the taxpayers. Health care insurance reform is not socialism but government regulation (go study what that means).

No, we are not strongly tilting to socialism.

My premise and assumptions are quite right, and you are talking out of your ass.

Jake,
you do know that you can achieve socialism through gov't fiat alone?

Indeed, there is a direct correlation between gov't involvement and economics of scale.

Our own history shows that as gov't regulates more and more of an industry, the industries have to become larger with fewer competitors to deal with the gov't.

As such, at that point the industries work harder to get gov't monies and stop as much competition as possible.

All this gov't intervention creates nothing more than Crony Capitalism

The main point being that Statism in any form is bad

This Health Care regulation as you call it

Are you really that naive to believe that it won't hurt the market place for health care?
Do you really believe that it won't push us towards a single payer option ?

Even Barney Frank admitted that it was a "back door" (his words not mine) to the single payer

Remember Papa Obama secret deals with Big Pharma - Why would that be?

Is that how real free markets work ?

How many gov't waivers from PapaObama Care has the gov't "decreed" so far via HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius ?- last count was over 200
Sounds more like a modern "feudal state" than a free market state

Prove your third line as true and we can go from there. You better go ask John Rockefeller or his ghost first before you respond.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You're confusing your isms'.

Liberalism is not Socialism/Fascism.

And Marxism is not even remotely liberal.

Liberalism means allowing everyone to live their lives in freedom....not under the thumb of an abusive government.

Classical Liberalism.... that's not what today's 'liberals' are. They hide behind the label. What they really are is socialists. I have no problem with people believing in socialism... unless they are too cowardly to admit it.

The Jeffersonian ideology was a different sort of LIBERALISM than either of those. It was that no one should be under the oppressive thumb of government OR the thumb of feudal lords

"we both consider the people as our children, and love them with parental affection. But you love them as infants whom you are afraid to trust without nurses; and I as adults whom I freely leave to self-government." -- Thomas Jefferson (to P. S. Dupont De Nemours, April 24, 1816)

"I hope we shall take warning from the example [of England] and crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to George Logan (Nov. 16, 1916)

Jefferson was a slave owner, man, which was worse than a feudal lord.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Conservative: favoring traditional views or values.

Glib one liners don't actually add value.

definitions are not glip one-liners

they are definitions

Problem is if you don't fit the definition you're not it.

THANK YOU, mud: your definitions don't fit. Thank you for posting that.

 

[Agit8r]

Classical Liberalism.... that's not what today's 'liberals' are. They hide behind the label. What they really are is socialists. I have no problem with people believing in socialism... unless they are too cowardly to admit it.

The Jeffersonian ideology was a different sort of LIBERALISM than either of those. It was that no one should be under the oppressive thumb of government OR the thumb of feudal lords

"we both consider the people as our children, and love them with parental affection. But you love them as infants whom you are afraid to trust without nurses; and I as adults whom I freely leave to self-government." -- Thomas Jefferson (to P. S. Dupont De Nemours, April 24, 1816)

"I hope we shall take warning from the example [of England] and crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to George Logan (Nov. 16, 1916)

Jefferson was a slave owner, man, which was worse than a feudal lord.

true, but he was part of this big utopian scheme to have the Government buy the slaves from their owners and ship them off to Africa. not very PC, but true nonetheless

Rights of Mankind (1789-Present): States Rights...? Originalist?!

 

[JakeStarkey]

None of that about Jefferson mitigates your original post. Epic fail if you are trying to use him as an example.

 

[Agit8r]

None of that about Jefferson mitigates your original post. Epic fail if you are trying to use him as an example.

You believe that Jefferson's ideology even remotely resembled that of Rush Limbaugh? Sean Hannity? Glenn Beck?

REALLY?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Are you ascribing things to me that link the two? Prove it.

 

[code1211]

You're confusing your isms'.

Liberalism is not Socialism/Fascism.

And Marxism is not even remotely liberal.

Liberalism means allowing everyone to live their lives in freedom....not under the thumb of an abusive government.

Today's Liberal seems to be an advocate of a strong Federal Government. Today's Conservative to a lesser extent advocates the limiting of that Federal power in favor of States Rights.

The general feeling of Conservatives is that the problem is Washington and the general feeling of the Liberal is that the solution is Washington. The place you find yourself occupying on the continuum between one idea nd the other will define your political affiliation.

Liberalism does not promote allowing all to live their lives in freedom. It promotes dictating standards of conduct whether they concern smoking cigarettes or buying Health Insurance and then dominating the actions of the individual.

Do-gooders who butt in to all around them because they know better are the folks who comprise Liberalism. Their goals are ususally good. Their results are seldom as good. Their methods are generally underhanded, justified by their goals, and result in things like the cigarette taxes on a product that will kill you and yet which they will not outlaw.

Liberalism is a belief system that drives people to redouble their efforts when their purpose has been forgotten or perverted.

Thats sort of ridiculous.

The notion of "Butting in" is rather silly. Governments..butt in all the time. Accepting and granting power to a government is part of the social pact. "Living Free" without protocol or restrictions is anarchy.

From the first time humans figured out the only sure way to take down a wooly mammoth until space flight..was to be involved in a collective..governments have and will continue to "butt in".

Governance demands control. To what degree and to which activities is the question. Also, by what device are controls exerted? Is it through paniced exageration and deception like the Global Warming swindle or through class envy and lies like the Health Insurance deception?

Most supporters of the Health Insurance Swindle are waiting until their insurance is provided for free. Won't they be surprised. There really is nothing for nothing.

When the King of Saudi Arabia, who really does not have a concern with the expense of anything, needed medical care, he came to the USA to get it. Did he really choose to come to a country with the 26th worst medical care in the world?

Liberalism has certain goals and ideas that have nothing at all to do with the sales pitches they use to sell them. If these goals and ideas were not Liberal Party Planks, the Liberals would undoubtedly pass laws against them.

Bernie Maddoff is bad but Obamacare is good. Either way, we're screwed.

 

[Agit8r]

Are you ascribing things to me that link the two? Prove it.

my OP stated that Americas founding fathers were not conservative by today's standards.

The Hamiltonians wanted a strong and relatively unlimited federal gov't, a loose construction of the constitution, and weren't very "pro-gun"

The Jeffersonians were for things like a more equal distribution of property, limited corporate powers, public education, rights for aliens, due process, civil liberties.

By AM radio standards, the Jeffersonians would be left-wing loons, and the Hamiltonians would be statists. Simple as that

 

[Liability]

You know Thomas Paine suggested both a progressive income tax, and Social Security, right?

That's a talking pointless.

I want you to provide the link to the THREAD in which you allegedly did your job.

i'll assume you are responding to me

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...g-father-american-revolutionary-quotes-4.html

agit8ed:

I have zipped through many of the quotes you offered in that thread. You seem to like the words of Jefferson and Paine the most.

Some of your quotable quotes seem to offer no insight into anything under discussion here. For example, why it is of any interest to our political discussion that Jefferson was near-to a vegetarian, I do not know.

Now, I may have lost the thread of this conversation. I find that I agree with a great deal of what Paine said and a great deal of what Jefferson said. Not all. I never agreed with everything they said, but by and large, I have long agreed with much of it. So rather than offering quotes out of context (as others here have noted you are doing), maybe you can expound a bit.

Can you maybe state your thesis in a simple declarative sentence or two and then, quote by quote (or sets of quotes), support your thesis with reference to the beliefs expressed by the Founders and the Framers?

 

[mudwhistle]

Classical Liberalism.... that's not what today's 'liberals' are. They hide behind the label. What they really are is socialists. I have no problem with people believing in socialism... unless they are too cowardly to admit it.

The Jeffersonian ideology was a different sort of LIBERALISM than either of those. It was that no one should be under the oppressive thumb of government OR the thumb of feudal lords

"we both consider the people as our children, and love them with parental affection. But you love them as infants whom you are afraid to trust without nurses; and I as adults whom I freely leave to self-government." -- Thomas Jefferson (to P. S. Dupont De Nemours, April 24, 1816)

"I hope we shall take warning from the example [of England] and crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to George Logan (Nov. 16, 1916)

Jefferson was a slave owner, man, which was worse than a feudal lord.

Being a slave owner then was socially acceptable. Some people owned them but allowed them nearly complete freedom. Back then having a slave and treating them like family was better then the alternatives, which was cutting them loose and making them live in abject poverty.

I'm not saying Jefferson was that way but being a slave-owner wasn't the same then.

Maybe you should go back and reread your history books. Slavery was bad but what followed was even worse in some cases.

 

[Agit8r]

"offering quotes out of context (as others here have noted you are doing), maybe you can expound a bit."

I have painstakingly provided sources, and offered quotes that really present principles that stand on their own (although the near-vegetarianism one was just to be trollish). are you asking for links? I can provide them if you would like

Jefferson letter to James Madison 1785
Jefferson to Madison by Thomas Jefferson

James Madison; Parties
Equality: James Madison, Parties

James Madison; A Candid State of Parties
http://www.constitution.org/jm/17920926_candid.txt

Thomas Paine; Rights of Man, Part the Second
Republican Government: Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, Part 2

Thomas Paine; Dissertation on the First Principles of Government
Representation: Thomas Paine, Dissertation on the First Principles of Government

Jefferson letter to William Plumer
The writings of Thomas Jefferson - Google Books

 

[Intense]

FAVORITE JEFFERSON QUOTES

Part 4

REPUBLICAN GOVERNMENT


=The Constitution=

"Aware of the tendency of power to degenerate into abuse, the
worthies of our country have secured its independence by the
establishment of a Constitution and form of government for our
nation, calculated to prevent as well as to correct abuse."
--Thomas Jefferson to Washington Tammany Society, 1809.

"[The purpose of a written constitution is] to bind up the several
branches of government by certain laws, which, when they
transgress, their acts shall become nullities; to render
unnecessary an appeal to the people, or in other words a rebellion,
on every infraction of their rights, on the peril that their
acquiescence shall be construed into an intention to surrender
those rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia, 1782. Q.XIII

"I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this
ground: That "all powers not delegated to the United States, by
the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are
reserved to the States or to the people." [10th Amendment]
To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specifically drawn
around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless
field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition." --Thomas
Jefferson: National Bank Opinion, 1791.

"The foundation on which all [our State constitutions] are built
is the natural equality of man, the denial of every pre-eminence
but that annexed to legal office and particularly the denial of a
pre-eminence by birth." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington,
1784.

"The principles of our Constitution are wisely opposed to all
perpetuations of power, and to every practice which may lead to
hereditary establishments." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Address,
1809.

"Though written constitutions may be violated in moments of
passion or delusion, yet they furnish a text to which those who
are watchful may again rally and recall the people. They fix,
too, for the people the principles of their political creed."
--Thomas Jefferson to Joseph Priestley, 1802.

"Whenever the General Government assumes undelegated powers,
its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force." --Thomas
Jefferson: Kentucky Resolutions, 1798.

"It [is] inconsistent with the principles of civil liberty, and contrary
to the natural rights of the other members of the society, that any
body of men therein should have authority to enlarge their own
powers... without restraint." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Allowance
Bill, 1778.

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as
are injurious to others." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia, 1782.

"Laws provide against injury from others, but not from
ourselves." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776?

"In questions of power...let no more be heard of confidence in
man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the
Constitution." --Thomas Jefferson: Kentucky Resolutions, 1798.

"Confidence is everywhere the parent of despotism. Free
government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence."
--Thomas Jefferson: Draft, Kentucky Resolutions, 1798.

"It is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited
constitutions, to bind down those whom we are obliged to trust
with power. Our Constitution has accordingly fixed the
limits to which, and no further, our confidence may go."
--Thomas Jefferson: Draft, Kentucky Resolutions, 1798.

"Is confidence or discretion, or is STRICT LIMIT, the principle
of our Constitution?" --Thomas Jefferson to Jedidiah Morse, 1822.

"Leave no authority existing not responsible to the people."
--Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1816.

"The elective franchise, if guarded as the ark of our safety, will
peaceably dissipate all combinations to subvert a Constitution,
dictated by the wisdom, and resting on the will of the people."
--Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Waring, 1801.

"Unless the mass retains sufficient control over those entrusted
with the powers of their government, these will be perverted to
their own oppression, and to the perpetuation of wealth and power
in the individuals and their families selected for the trust.
Whether our Constitution has hit on the exact degree of control
necessary, is yet under experiment." --Thomas Jefferson to M.
van der Kemp, 1812.
Favorite Jefferson Quotes

 

[Liability]

"offering quotes out of context (as others here have noted you are doing), maybe you can expound a bit."

I have painstakingly provided sources, and offered quotes that really present principles that stand on their own (although the near-vegetarianism one was just to be trollish). are you asking for links? I can provide them if you would like

Jefferson letter to James Madison 1785
Jefferson to Madison by Thomas Jefferson

James Madison; Parties
Equality: James Madison, Parties

James Madison; A Candid State of Parties
http://www.constitution.org/jm/17920926_candid.txt

Thomas Paine; Rights of Man, Part the Second
Republican Government: Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, Part 2

Thomas Paine; Dissertation on the First Principles of Government
Representation: Thomas Paine, Dissertation on the First Principles of Government

Jefferson letter to William Plumer
The writings of Thomas Jefferson - Google Books

No. Although the links are appreciated, your contention here is mistaken. The quotes very much fail to stand on their own. They are taken out of context and they do not reveal whatever it is you seem to imagine YOU are maintaining.

Many of us already are familiar with the expressed thinking of the Founders and Framers. Quoting them, as you have, out of context and our of sequence reveals effectively nothing about your position.

The Founders and Framers were students of Philosophy and of History. They seemed to appreciate better than any who had come before them that there was a great value in setting up a government where values and interests were made to work against each other. They simultaneously recognized the need for government and the dire things a government could do. So they deliberately went about the task (imperfect though it may have been and remains to this day) of cobbling together a FORM of government that came with internal checks and balances.

The checks and balances came in a VARIETY of forms. The BRANCHES of Government were put (to some extent) at cross purposes. Even Congress itself got DIVIDED into two houses designed (at least initially) to represent varied interests and serve as a self-institutional check on power. But it went further. The STATES were still sovereigns except to the extent they had ceded SOME of their respective sovereign powers CONDITIONALLY to the Federal Government. FEDERALISM is an important check and balance to the undue aggrandizement of power by the Federal government. And of course, the PEOPLE themselves retained their own authorities and powers except as otherwise specified. And they got the VOTE which is a potentially MASSIVE power to stay the hand of the Federal Government.

Within that context, I can support MUCH of what they said in those random quotes you offer on that basis.

How about you?

Do you agree with them (and with me) that too much centralization of power in the Federal Government is a dangerous thing and worthy of being avoided?

Do you further agree with them and with me (and it's not even remotely a contradiction) that the government they sought to create ought to not be so hobbled by checks and balances that it was incapable of doing the very things we seek to have our governments do?


If not, then what IS your thesis precisely? How do those various quotes support YOUR position?