Our founding fathers were not conservative

[Agit8r]

Ok... and how are these examples of "the property that individuals have"?

In Lockean philosophy--and that of our founders who followed it--individuals had the natural right to gather the produce of nature for their basic subsistence, and that the Civil Rights exchanged for these natural right could provide NO LESS protection, but rather were--WHEN LEGITIMATE--to offer the same or better.

Property: James Madison, Property

The Second Treatise of Civil Government
1690

John Locke
1632-1704


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Introduction
CHAP. I.
CHAP. II. Of the State of Nature.
CHAP. III. Of the State of War.
CHAP. IV. Of Slavery.
CHAP. V. Of Property.
CHAP. VI. Of Paternal Power.
CHAP. VII. Of Political or Civil Society.
CHAP. VIII. Of the Beginning of Political Societies.
CHAP. IX. Of the Ends of Political Society and Government.
CHAP. X. Of the Forms of a Common-wealth.
CHAP. XI. Of the Extent of the Legislative Power.
CHAP. XII. Of the Legislative, Executive, and Federative Power of the Common-wealth.
CHAP. XIII. Of the Subordination of the Powers of the Common-wealth.
CHAP. XIV. Of Prerogative.
CHAP. XV. Of Paternal, Political, and Despotical Power, considered together.
CHAP. XVI. Of Conquest.
CHAP. XVII. Of Usurpation.
CHAP. XVIII. Of Tyranny.
CHAP. XIX. Of the Dissolution of Government.

John Locke: Second Treatise of Civil Government

yes. that is from whence this comes:

"Though the earth, and all inferior creatures, be common to all men, yet every man has a property in his own person: this no body has any right to but himself. The labour of his body, and the work of his hands, we may say, are properly his. Whatsoever then he removes out of the state that nature hath provided, and left it in, he hath mixed his labour with, and joined to it something that is his own, and thereby makes it his property. It being by him removed from the common state nature hath placed it in, it hath by this labour something annexed to it, that excludes the common right of other men: for this labour being the unquestionable property of the labourer, no man but he can have a right to what that is once joined to, at least where there is enough, and as good, left in common for others."

 

[kaz]

if our founders could get into a time machine and see what america has become today and how the government let corporations take over the government and run the country instead of the people like they meant it to be...

Really? The founders believed in balance of power and they feared government. I challenge you to show anything they ever did that justifies government using it's power to protect itself from private citizens or businesses. You can't because everything they did was the complete reverse of that.

{link}

I didn't say the Federal government has no power. It does. Enumerated powers listed in the Constitution and by the 9th and 10th Amendments no more. But the Constitution was written to protect the people, not the Government and this doesn't contradict that so I'm not clear why you quoted me and posted it as if it did.

 

[Intense]

Really? The founders believed in balance of power and they feared government. I challenge you to show anything they ever did that justifies government using it's power to protect itself from private citizens or businesses. You can't because everything they did was the complete reverse of that.

{link}

I didn't say the Federal government has no power. It does. Enumerated powers listed in the Constitution and by the 9th and 10th Amendments no more. But the Constitution was written to protect the people, not the Government and this doesn't contradict that so I'm not clear why you quoted me and posted it as if it did.

First off, We are pretty much in agreement with a few exceptions. Madison, Jefferson, and many others were enemies to Tyranny, unfortunately that was not true for all of the Founders. Hamilton was very big on building the Federal Empire, shredding all that kept it in check. He changed the balance of power, a change we have yet to correct.

 

[u2scram]

"Ronald Reagan: Government isn't the solution to our problem, government is the problem"

if you ever need evidence that raygun was a moron, just remember that quote.

 

[The T]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

In modern parlence they weren't. They were however the fathers of it to which millions of us gravitate toward, and intend upon reinstituting.

See the founding documents for further explination for the release of the proverbial bee in your bonnet.

Enjoy the ride.

 

[Old Rocks]

Why don't you do your job and prove your point?

In the founding/revolutionary quote thread i provided around 30 very telling quotes that proved conclusively that the ideas of the organizer of the Boston Tea Party (Sam Adams), the author of Common Sense (Tom Paine), the author of the Declaration of Independence (Tom Jefferson) and the Author of our Bill of Rights (Jemmy Madison) were significantly at variance with the fundamental (as well as many petty) talking points of modern conservatism. I did my job

Provide the link.

Thomas Jefferson quotes

 

[M14 Shooter]

In the founding/revolutionary quote thread i provided around 30 very telling quotes that proved conclusively that the ideas of the organizer of the Boston Tea Party (Sam Adams), the author of Common Sense (Tom Paine), the author of the Declaration of Independence (Tom Jefferson) and the Author of our Bill of Rights (Jemmy Madison) were significantly at variance with the fundamental (as well as many petty) talking points of modern conservatism. I did my job

Provide the link.

Thomas Jefferson quotes

All this does is further illustrate that Jefferson held the position that religion should play no role in the governance of a secular state. As the state mixing with religion and religion mixing with the state is not a tenet of modern conservativism, their specification does not speak to the point in question.

One must wonder, however... to whom did Jefferson refer when he included terms like "Creator" and "Supreme Judge of the world", and "Divine Providence" in the Declaration of INdependence?

 

[Freedomlover]

The statement is correct. The conservatives were the Tories who wanted to remain loyal to King George. The liberals were the Founding Fathers who distained the devine right of kings and the centralized government the king represented. Hence, the Declation of Independence which put forth the idea of rights coming from our creator and not from government!! Today these terms have been turned on their head whereby liberals want government control and regulation (centralized) government and conservatives want to maintain the individual liberties spelled out in the Declaration and the limit on the central government placed on it by the Constitution.

 

[kaz]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

They weren't liberal either. They were libertarian. They neither desired our government to be in their bedroom or their wallet

 

[Liability]

In the founding/revolutionary quote thread i provided around 30 very telling quotes that proved conclusively that the ideas of the organizer of the Boston Tea Party (Sam Adams), the author of Common Sense (Tom Paine), the author of the Declaration of Independence (Tom Jefferson) and the Author of our Bill of Rights (Jemmy Madison) were significantly at variance with the fundamental (as well as many petty) talking points of modern conservatism. I did my job

Provide the link.

Thomas Jefferson quotes

http://www.usmessageboard.com/3078116-post67.html

 

[The T]

Provide the link.

Thomas Jefferson quotes

http://www.usmessageboard.com/3078116-post67.html

Labels change. Principles remain rock solid.

 

[Sallow]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

They weren't liberal either. They were libertarian. They neither desired our government to be in their bedroom or their wallet

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

You really need to read this document every so often.

 

[The T]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

They weren't liberal either. They were libertarian. They neither desired our government to be in their bedroom or their wallet

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

You really need to read this document every so often.

As should you and your Statist pals.

 

[kaz]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

They weren't liberal either. They were libertarian. They neither desired our government to be in their bedroom or their wallet

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

You really need to read this document every so often.

Hmmm....is this another liberal, you're either a Republican or an anarchist quote? I'm neither.

Here are some Jefferson quotes you should read:

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not

I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive

Most bad government has grown out of too much government

Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread

I think myself that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first

Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases

******Check and mate. It always amuses me when Democrats claim to be the party of Jefferson*******

 

[The T]

They weren't liberal either. They were libertarian. They neither desired our government to be in their bedroom or their wallet

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

You really need to read this document every so often.

Hmmm....is this another liberal, you're either a Republican or an anarchist quote? I'm neither.

Here are some Jefferson quotes you should read:

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not

I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive

Most bad government has grown out of too much government

Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread

I think myself that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first

Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases

******Check and mate. It always amuses me when Democrats claim to be the party of Jefferson*******

...As Swallows' head begins to spin...

 

[M14 Shooter]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

They weren't liberal either. They were libertarian. They neither desired our government to be in their bedroom or their wallet

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

You really need to read this document every so often.

It is interesting that you quote that power, and yet do not understand that it doesn't support your position. Given your penchant for self-illustrating your ignorance of most things, your mal-understanding isn't surprising, mind you, just interesting.

The power to directly lay taxes on the people did not exist until the ratification of 16th amendment. This happened in 1913, well after the FF were dead, and indicates that the FF indeed did not have the desire for government to be in anyone's wallet.

 

[Charles_Main]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

We have been over and over this in here. They were More like Today's Conservative than Today's Liberals By a long shot. In truth the were most like today's Libertarians.

The word Liberal as it is used today, does not have the same meaning as it did back then. I assume you are another Liberal Troll expect us all to agree with you. That the Founders were in fact Card carrying, modern Day Liberals. When nothing could be further from the truth.

Oh and you are wrong. Congress did not have the specific Power to Tax peoples incomes until the 16th Amendment. Before that time the Government got most of its money from Taxing Trade, Tariffs, Duties, fees, What not.

 

[Agit8r]

You really need to read this document every so often.

Hmmm....is this another liberal, you're either a Republican or an anarchist quote? I'm neither.

Here are some Jefferson quotes you should read:

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not

I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive

Most bad government has grown out of too much government

Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread

I think myself that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first

Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases

******Check and mate. It always amuses me when Democrats claim to be the party of Jefferson*******

...As Swallows' head begins to spin...

it is easy to take quotes out of context when there is no reference as to where they originate

 

[Cecilie1200]

Hmmm....is this another liberal, you're either a Republican or an anarchist quote? I'm neither.

Here are some Jefferson quotes you should read:

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not

I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive

Most bad government has grown out of too much government

Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread

I think myself that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first

Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases

******Check and mate. It always amuses me when Democrats claim to be the party of Jefferson*******

...As Swallows' head begins to spin...

it is easy to take quotes out of context when there is no reference as to where they originate

By all means, show us the context for these quotes that will make their meaning something different from what it now appears to be.

It's easy to say, "Out of context" when you don't think you have to bother to prove it.

 

[Agit8r]

...As Swallows' head begins to spin...

it is easy to take quotes out of context when there is no reference as to where they originate

By all means, show us the context for these quotes that will make their meaning something different from what it now appears to be.

It's easy to say, "Out of context" when you don't think you have to bother to prove it.

When I post a quote I include the SOURCE, just in case somebody actually has enough intellectual fortitude to try to prove me wrong by looking it up. For instance, when I post:

"Of all occupations those are the least desirable in a free state which produce the most servile dependence of one class of citizens on another class. This dependence must increase as the mutuality of wants is diminished. Where the wants on one side are the absolute necessaries and on the other are neither absolute necessaries, nor result from the habitual economy of life, but are the mere caprices of fancy, the evil is in its extreme"

-- James Madison, 'Fashion' National Gazette, 1792

one may look it up and find that the Father of our Constitution was sympathizing with garment workers in England--the country that his political opponents wished for America to emulate.

Or when I post:

"The earth is given as a common stock for man to labor and live on. If for the encouragement of industry we allow it to be appropriated, we must take care that other employment be provided to those excluded from the appropriation."

-- Thomas Jefferson; letter to James Madison (October 28, 1785)

one may find that Jefferson is sympathizing with a victim of the French aristocratic system that preceded the revolution that he all the other advocates of limited government at the time supported.

I think that I learned how to cite sources sometime in junior high, but then again our teachers collectively bargained