Orthodox Christianity, False Teachers, Faith, and Reason

[Chuckt]

But faith predated the Bible. There as no Bible yet written by anybody when Abraham risked all that he had, all that he was, all that he hoped to be to demonstrate his faith and obey YHWH.

Not necessarily. Moses saw a burning bush, it wasn't consumed. Faith was based on the revelation of God. Faith is based on hearing the calling of God although it is sometimes unseen or not heard.

Moreover, and this is all important, true faith must be based solely on scriptural facts, for “faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Rom. 10:17). Unless our faith is established on facts, it is no more than conjecture, superstition, speculation or presumption.

Hebrews 11:1 leaves no question about this: “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Faith standing on the facts of the Word of God substantiates and gives evidence of things not seen. And everyone knows that evidence must be founded on facts. All of us started on this principle when we were born again—our belief stood directly on the eternal fact of the redeeming death and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, as recorded in I Corinthians 15:1-4. This is the faith by which we began, and it is the same faith by which we are to “stand” (16:13), “walk” (II Cor. 5:7) and “live” (Gal. 2:20). “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him” (Col. 2:6).

https://bible.org/seriespage/faith

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Scripture is servant not master.

Scripture is guide not overseer.

Scripture works with common sense and inspiration to infuse the seeker with light and understanding.

You are wrong on all three accounts.

First, Scripture is the Word of God and the Word of God is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is Lord. ( Master )


It is written: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow of things in heaven, and things in the earth, and things under heaven. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of the Father. - Philippians 2:10, 11.

It is written: Remember the word that I said unto you, the servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. John 15: 20

It is written: The disciple is not above his Master, nor the servant above his Lord.
- Matthew 10:24

It is written: And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood, and his name is called, "The Word of God."

It is written: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. - John 1:1, 2

It is written: Trust in the Lord with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him and he shall direct thy paths. Be wise not in thine own eyes, fear the LORD and depart from evil. - Proverbs 3: 5-7

It is written: For it is written, as I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue confess to God. - Romans 14: 11

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Scripture is not master, simply.

I wish you contented fulfillment on your journey, but I fear you will not witness the joy of the adventure.

You are wrong on both accounts again, Starkey.



First, Scripture is the Word of God and the Word of God is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is Lord. ( Master )


It is written: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow of things in heaven, and things in the earth, and things under heaven. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of the Father. - Philippians 2:10, 11.

It is written: Remember the word that I said unto you, the servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. John 15: 20

It is written: The disciple is not above his Master, nor the servant above his Lord.
- Matthew 10:24

It is written: And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood, and his name is called, "The Word of God."

It is written: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
- John 1:1

It is written: Trust in the Lord with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him and he shall direct thy paths. Be wise not in thine own eyes, fear the LORD and depart from evil. - Proverbs 3: 5-7

It is written: For it is written, as I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue confess to God. - Romans 14: 11

and for my brother in Christ, Chuck? It is written...............the joy of the LORD is your strength. - Nehemiah 8:10

 

[Foxfyre]

But faith predated the Bible. There as no Bible yet written by anybody when Abraham risked all that he had, all that he was, all that he hoped to be to demonstrate his faith and obey YHWH.

Not necessarily. Moses saw a burning bush, it wasn't consumed. Faith was based on the revelation of God. Faith is based on hearing the calling of God although it is sometimes unseen or not heard.

Moreover, and this is all important, true faith must be based solely on scriptural facts, for “faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Rom. 10:17). Unless our faith is established on facts, it is no more than conjecture, superstition, speculation or presumption.

Hebrews 11:1 leaves no question about this: “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Faith standing on the facts of the Word of God substantiates and gives evidence of things not seen. And everyone knows that evidence must be founded on facts. All of us started on this principle when we were born again—our belief stood directly on the eternal fact of the redeeming death and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, as recorded in I Corinthians 15:1-4. This is the faith by which we began, and it is the same faith by which we are to “stand” (16:13), “walk” (II Cor. 5:7) and “live” (Gal. 2:20). “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him” (Col. 2:6).

https://bible.org/seriespage/faith

But as you said, Moses was called via a burning bush as there was no scripture written at that time. Faith pre-dated the Bible. It was from faith that the pages of the Old Testament that we have were written. The scribes wrote down the story of the people's encounters with the living God, their understanding of what he expected of them, and the words that he gave them, the stories that others told to them. Abraham predated Moses yes? Abraham was a man of faith. And it was only much after the time of Abraham that his story was committed to prose--written down for the generations to read.

There was no Bible yet written when Moses was called, and he responded in faith. It was from God speaking to his soul, his intellect, his very being and not from scripture that he believed.

It was a relationship with God himself, and not the Bible that called such people into God's service. And the reason that we have the Bible we now have.

I love the Bible. I read it, teach it, preach it, research it, reflect on it, receive guidance and direction from it, and believe there is no more important writing that exists in the world. I believe many believe by reading and hearing the Word as contained in its pages. But to presume that God no longer calls people separate from and apart from the pages of the Bible is simply absurd to me.

 

[Chuckt]

But as you said, Moses was called via a burning bush as there was no scripture written at that time. Faith pre-dated the Bible. It was from faith that the pages of the Old Testament that we have were written. The scribes wrote down their story of their encounters with the living God, their understanding of what he expected of them, and the words that he gave them, the stories that others told to them. Abraham predated Moses yes? Abraham was a man of faith. And it was only much after the time of Abraham that his story was committed to prose--written down for the generations to read.

Being called is evidence. You can't be called if there wasn't someone to be called by.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

But as you said, Moses was called via a burning bush as there was no scripture written at that time. Faith pre-dated the Bible. It was from faith that the pages of the Old Testament that we have were written. The scribes wrote down their story of their encounters with the living God, their understanding of what he expected of them, and the words that he gave them, the stories that others told to them. Abraham predated Moses yes? Abraham was a man of faith. And it was only much after the time of Abraham that his story was committed to prose--written down for the generations to read.

Being called is evidence. You can't be called if there wasn't someone to be called by.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Some of my Opinions on Teaching
(C) Chuckt 2013

Some fifteen years ago, I was approached by a manager who wanted to rent a room and set up chairs. His suggestion was that he wanted me to help him set up a church to take people’s money. He wanted someone that could talk to people. I was offended, angered and upset with the question and I said, “no”.

I also went to Bible studies and it angered me that people wouldn’t study the Bible but they would look at me when they shouldn’t because they could study the Bible and share, teach or instruct as good as or better than me. I actually stopped going to Bible studies for a while because it bothered me that people were looking at me instead of God so I decided that my job was to make people refocus and to get them to look at Jesus through His word.

I’ve also been to Bible studies where it was just a social event and people were more concerned about meeting people and making friends than they were concerned about truth. I spent time explaining to people who had no idea what they were talking about in the scriptures to only see them as a dear stuck in the headlights.

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

How many times have I read in the Bible “they did what was right in their own eyes”? I have had friends like that and one of them was a Christian, was living a secret life and writes back that he/she recommitted his/her life to Jesus and he/she almost died because of ungodly actions in his/her life.

I can tell you personally in my own life, I thought I was very smart with the scriptures and thought that I could do things that only some pastors do and a pastor at church said to me, “you’re not pastor”_______" so and so because I thought I could help apostate Christians and ended up getting hurt because often the person who is living in secret sin is often deceiving and being deceived themselves.

I think that it is important that the man in the pulpit should be educated by someone who is trained by someone who is trained because the average person in the pew wouldn’t know if the man in the pulpit was teaching God’s words or his own ideas. There are examples in the book "Exegetical Fallacies" by Carson and my friend who teaches hermeneutics brought this book to my attention.

Do you have a Bible? Did the people who translate it have an education? If I gave you a Hebrew and Greek text, what would it look like if I asked you to translate the Bible? That is why you need a Christian education.

Sin is often referred to as missing the mark. That is a simple definition that will work for this illustration. If you flew a plane from California to Hawaii and were off by one degree, would it matter much? It may not seem like much but if your plane was off by one degree, you wouldn’t see the Island of Hawaii. If a teacher gets you off course, is that where God wants you to be? What about our spiritual destiny? Does it matter how wrong the teacher is if he is sincere? If you thought you were taking aspirin but weren’t, would it matter to your body how sincere you were if the pill was bad for you? My stepmother in law went to the pharmacy, the pharmacy gave her thyroid medication instead of heart medication and she crashed her car because she assumed she was taking the right medicine but the medicine container had someone else’s name on it. It doesn’t matter that she sincerely thought she was taking the right medicine.

Walking In Truth

2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
When it says,"walk in it", the truth has a center.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth (parabaino), and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

It means "to go by the side of, to go pass… or overstep" according to the Blue Letter Bible.
Pastor Joe says the construction is:

"Whosoever runs ahead of (not to continue in the bounds of)." And when churches are being emergent, seeker-sensitive or liberal by not calling sin "sin", or hell "hell" or righteousness "righteousness" because they want to be relative or not offend people then they are running ahead of the truth and they aren't in the center of truth so if you don’t care where you will end up then follow them and don’t walk in the center of truth.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus is truth and the Father is truth. Did you notice that they are in one another?
Jesus is also the door and you have to enter in through the door because narrow is His way that leads to life:

Matthew 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 10:1 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

The people who go their own ways are probably on the periphery because they abide not and walk ahead of the doctrines in the Bible because they never touch the center. It isn't good enough to touch the periphery by climbing up some other way. We have to know Jesus and since Jesus is the door, the path for the door must be very narrow but we have to know Him.

Teaching or preaching often touches on counselling and I was at lunch with a group of people and there was a lady going to college and studying counselling and she was talking about how dangerous counselling is because she could really mess up another person’s life. I also bought books on counselling from a college professor which states that the Catholic Church is going to pay out a billion dollars on counselling because the people you try to help are the ones who most often get hurt and then they return to sue you. I’ve always tried to tell people you need to be licensed in the state that you practice in and complete the required hours and have a degree in counselling to do counselling on message boards and that is often met with “doing right justifies the means” which means they think they know better and are going to do it anyway and throw caution to the wind.
There are spiritual dangers to teaching so I would rather people just read the Bible as many times as they possibly can and let the Holy Spirit talk to them through scriptures before you listen to the wrong teacher or preacher.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

I try to practice discernment. I have to do a lot of reading to do that but the Bible says ‘my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.

James 3:1 ¶ My brethren, be not many masters (teachers), knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation (judgment).

The Bible warns us not to be many masters (teachers) because we will receive the greater judgment. Why would that be? Because maybe we can steer someone the wrong way?

The term “be not deceived” shows up about five or six times in the Bible.

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

The Christians we teach belong to God because God says through Paul that “ye are not your own” and “you are bought with a price”. We’re all God’s children so it doesn’t matter how big we are because we’re still children and anyone who dies under a 100 years in the millennium will be called a child (Isaiah 65:20) and children are often characterized as someone who doesn’t want to do what they’re told so when we have to explain to people and then they die of sin, they will be compared as a child.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

People are into the ministry for the benefits. A true Christian will care for the sheep. Someone who is hired does not care for the sheep.

John 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
The Bible talks a lot about false teachers, what they did. I could write about it all night.

 

[BreezeWood]

It is written: For it is written, as I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue confess to God. - Romans 14: 11

as I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,

JC was not without his faults ...



“Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?”

“My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”



could JC be actually saying to bow to him ?

 

[Foxfyre]

But as you said, Moses was called via a burning bush as there was no scripture written at that time. Faith pre-dated the Bible. It was from faith that the pages of the Old Testament that we have were written. The scribes wrote down their story of their encounters with the living God, their understanding of what he expected of them, and the words that he gave them, the stories that others told to them. Abraham predated Moses yes? Abraham was a man of faith. And it was only much after the time of Abraham that his story was committed to prose--written down for the generations to read.

Being called is evidence. You can't be called if there wasn't someone to be called by.

Evidence of what? I am arguing that people can be called by God apart from Scripture. And you seem to think that is arguing against the existence of God? How do you come to such a conclusion?

We would not know of Abraham's calling or of Moses' calling without the scriptures to inform us. But neither were called through the Scriptures but they were called directly by God himself.

The Scriptures inform us of how God interacts with people and I know from personal experience that God can speak to us through the scriptures.

But the scriptures are not God.

Sometimes I think the reason we don't have the original manuscripts is because God, in his wisdom, knew that humankind would worship those manuscripts instead of God himself. Make of the Bible itself an idol to be worshipped. Sometimes I think people tend to do that anyway and use the Bible as a hammer instead of God's word to bring people to Him.

And I think we need to be careful about that too. The unbeliever uses the Bible as a hammer to try to destroy the faith of the believer. But sometimes I think the believer also uses the Bible as a hammer to force people into a narrow box of orthodoxy that, at least in my belief, God never intended.

 

[Avatar4321]

Having had, in recent weeks, some interesting, mostly cordial but also a few contentious exchanges over matters of faith:

I have to believe that those who are convinced that others of us are false teachers, false witnesses, false prophets are speaking from sincere conviction.

I have to believe those who are convinced that others of us are headed straight for hell are speaking from sincere conviction.
"

We have a rule in our church to only say what scripture says. It helps everyone get along better.

We have a rule in our Church to seek the Lord and let the Holy Spirit guide us in all things. The problems come when we dont do that.

 

[Avatar4321]

Scripture is servant not master.

Scripture is guide not overseer.

Scripture works with common sense and inspiration to infuse the seeker with light and understanding.

I've found in my life that there are a number of people who, like the pharisees, search the scriptures seeking Eternal life, but completely miss the Lord and His servants in their lives. There are others who treat the scriptures as God, instead of God as God and the scriptures as His witness.

I am not saying that any of those people are in this thread. But I think it's something all of us need to be beware of.

 

[Avatar4321]

In the words of the prophet Isaiah, "Come let us reason together."

I say completely without rancor or a vindictive attitude, those with blind faith will always abandon reason when necessary to maintain their faith. Blind faith, after all, is faith without reason by definition. Too many times, even in my own family, people believe because they want to believe.

Faith, true faith, is the engine that drives us to adhere to the path that reason illuminates.

Faith cannot be blind. Belief can be. But not faith.

What is the difference between mere belief and faith? Belief is in inactive. Faith is a belief that causes action in your life.

Even the devils believe that Christ is the Son of God. But they don't have faith in Him. You can tell if a man or woman has faith in Christ because they will try to repent and submit themselves to His will. They will act. and when they act, the Lord will bless their faith.

When the Lord blesses your faith, you gain virtue and knowledge. Your life changes. You grow in happiness and understanding. Thus it cannot be blind because you can see the fruits produced by faith.

I have had enough experience with the Lord, that when He inspires me to do something, I try to do it. Not because Im blind, but because I see. I don't always know why I am doing it. But experience has taught me that it's the right thing to do.

My faith started simply from inquiry and reason. I didn't know there was a God. But I concluded that if there was a God and if He communicated with man, He could make Himself known to me. I didn't know how. Or when. Or what I would be doing. Or how I would recognize it. But I calculated that the risk was reasonable and that I would try to exercise faith and find out for myself. I don't know how long after that that the Lord shared His love with me. But I do know that it was after I had exercised faith and experimented on the Word.

The Lord reveals Himself to people differently. However, I do know that He will reveal Himself to you just as easily as He would me. He loves you. I know you may not have any witness of it than my word. But I testify that He does love you. And when you are ready to come to Him, He will reveal Himself to you too. Please don't take my word for it. Find out for yourself. Search your mind and your heart. Study the scriptures. Experiment on the Word. If you are sincere and humble, than by the grace of God you too will know. it wont be blind faith but a calm assure faith.

God bless you.

 

[Foxfyre]

Having had, in recent weeks, some interesting, mostly cordial but also a few contentious exchanges over matters of faith:

I have to believe that those who are convinced that others of us are false teachers, false witnesses, false prophets are speaking from sincere conviction.

I have to believe those who are convinced that others of us are headed straight for hell are speaking from sincere conviction.
"

We have a rule in our church to only say what scripture says. It helps everyone get along better.

We have a rule in our Church to seek the Lord and let the Holy Spirit guide us in all things. The problems come when we dont do that.

In my opinion, you have a godly church and are blessed. I think I am also blessed with such a church the last several years. It has not always been so for me, however. I will be grateful to my former denomination for allowing me the freedom to think, to learn, to expand the scope of my understanding without condemnation. I have to believe that is why God put me there.

But in the end, I could see that this particular group of Christians were not seeking God's direction but were pushing the Holy Spirit aside to do church as they wanted it to be. And it was with God's blessings that I left that group and joined one where I would be spiritually nourished and would have opportunity to use what I had learned to help others.

The most important thing I learned, however, is that God uses the most narrow minded, judgmental, persnickety, rigidly fundamentally orthodox Christians to do his work. And he blesses them.

And he uses the most grandiose, hoighty toity high church Christians with all their magnificent trappings and pomp and ceremony to do his work. And he blesses them.

And he uses the holy rollers and highly demonstrative Christians to do his work. And he blesses them.

And he uses people who enjoy the pomp and circumstance and the different traditions and the different rituals, but don't personally need them to do God's work. And he blesses them.

So what is a false teacher? A false prophet? How is one recognized? Is it not he or she who would destroy or divert the faith of another--that other who loves the Lord and is seeking to serve him however such person is called to do that?

 

[Foxfyre]

Scripture is not master, simply.

I wish you contented fulfillment on your journey, but you will not see the joy of it.

You contradict yourself because you wrote:

"Scripture works with common sense and inspiration to infuse the seeker with light and understanding."

My understanding from scripture is according to you "light and understanding" that you are wrong. See above message again as to why you are wrong.


http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...se-teachers-faith-and-reason.html#post7930435

The Lord knows, and Jake would agree I think , that Jake and I agree on very little. But here I think Jake is correct.

God existed before the Scriptures existed. And he had relationships with people before the Scriptures existed.

If we believe the Scriptures, then we have to believe the Christ, the Word, existed before the Scriptures existed.

If we are to obey nothing but the Scriptures, or what somebody else tells us the Scriptures say, then how did Abraham come to father the great people from whom Jesus of Nazareth would be born? How did Moses know to lead the people out of Egypt so that the story of the chosen people of God could continue?

See? To say all that must be ignored and say that now we must do exactly what the scriptures say and believe that the pastors/leaders of our church have the authority to dictate to us exactly what the scriptures say, flies in the face of what the Scirptures themselves give witness.

I cannot accept that God gave us reason, logic, wisdom, inspiration, conviction, and intellect and expects us to set all that aside and agree with what somebody else tells us we are required to believe.

 

[Avatar4321]

By their fruits ye shall know them

 

[Avatar4321]

The scriptures are tools that are profitable to bring us to the Lord and help us recognize His voice in our lives and eventually to enter into His presence in this life and the Eternities.

 

[Chuckt]

Evidence of what? I am arguing that people can be called by God apart from Scripture. And you seem to think that is arguing against the existence of God? How do you come to such a conclusion?

We would not know of Abraham's calling or of Moses' calling without the scriptures to inform us. But neither were called through the Scriptures but they were called directly by God himself.

The Scriptures inform us of how God interacts with people and I know from personal experience that God can speak to us through the scriptures.

But the scriptures are not God.

Sometimes I think the reason we don't have the original manuscripts is because God, in his wisdom, knew that humankind would worship those manuscripts instead of God himself. Make of the Bible itself an idol to be worshipped. Sometimes I think people tend to do that anyway and use the Bible as a hammer instead of God's word to bring people to Him.

And I think we need to be careful about that too. The unbeliever uses the Bible as a hammer to try to destroy the faith of the believer. But sometimes I think the believer also uses the Bible as a hammer to force people into a narrow box of orthodoxy that, at least in my belief, God never intended.

Foxfyre,

God is not going to come back until He comes with 10,000s of His saints so how are you going to know if revelation came from a lying spirit or God?
So how are you going to get what God revealed to you if you were a non-believer? That is also dangerous because if we start accepting new revelations then people can add to the Bible based on little evidence and start writing scripture themselves based on lies.
The evidence of God is seen by the light of creation and if you believe in that you get more light. How do you get from that to Orthodoxy? And if you do, what God will you believe in? Allah?

God built His church on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets and the testimony of whom Jesus Christ is. If you take that away, what do you have and how do you get from there to reality? For most people, you don't.


The same power that is in the words "Let there be light" were "God breathed" into the scriptures. God said in the Old Testament that his words weren't going to return void and that they would accomplish what He set them out to do. There are also 300 prophecies or more in the Bible and just fulfilling some of them are impossible unless you were God. Sir. Robert Anderson was knighted on his work from the Bible on God's prophecy of Israel going into captivity and when they first became a nation in 1948 because no nation in the world went away for four generations, returned and got their land back. The reason the book of Daniel is disputed is because the prophecies happened too exactly that scholars accused the prophet of writing them after the fact because it was that good but yet the book of Daniel predicts Israel becoming a nation again.

If you don't have God's words teaching then what "teaching" are you going to have? When God comes back He is going to rebuke many nations (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3) and He is going to teach us His ways again (Isaiah 2:3, Michah 4:2) and because not only are people not seeking Him but because the iniquity of mankind will be full meaning that life here on Earth will not get any better until God exercises His wrath and He will exercise His wrath by allowing the anti-Christ to come first and God's judgments will be poured out upon the earth.

What is essential doctrine and what is heresy?


1) God's Unity

Knowing the true God (John 17:3) is at stake.

2) God's Tri-Unity

Knowing the unity and relational nature of God is at stake.

3) Human Depravity

What is at stake is when we try to deal with the problem of separation and death on our own terms.

4) Christ's Sinlessness

Christ's ability to represent us before God and thus provide salvation for us is at stake.

6) Christ's Deity

What is at stake here is Jesus' ability to save us.

7) Christ's Humanity

What is at stake here is Jesus' ability to fully represent humankind in the atonement.

8) The Necessity of God's grace.

What is at stake is our relationship to God, eternal life.

9) The Necessity of Faith

What is at stake is whether we want to be judged by what we deserve or with God's undeserved favor (grace)

10) Christ's Atoning Death

The unique nature of Jesus' work of salvation is at stake.

11) Christ's bodily resurrection
Proof that Jesus conquered death is at stake.

12) Christ's bodily ascension
The Holy Spirit's work in the life of the believer is at stake.

13) Christ's Intercession
Do you have any assurance that your prayers are heard by God? That is at stake.

14) Christ's second coming
Your hope of being together with Christ is at stake.

15) Inspiration of Scripture

What is at stake is whether we know we have a foundation to believe what is revealed in scripture.

16) Method of Interpretation
What is at stake is whether we know if we're getting scripture just as the author meant it.

(This is the outline to "Essential Doctrine Made Easy" by Dr. Geisler which I heavily adapted.)

Chuck

 

[Foxfyre]

The scriptures are tools that are profitable to bring us to the Lord and help us recognize His voice in our lives and eventually to enter into His presence in this life and the Eternities.

This is close to my own belief.

It's the same old dichotomy.

The Bible is all that we need and must be believed in its entirety exactly as my church says it must be believed.

How do you know?

Because the Bible says so.​

Not only does this insult the intellect in other ways, it is entirely illogical to use the Bible as the authority to hold the Bible up as sacrosanct. And also the Bible does not say that about itself.

I believe the Bible is true as it was understood though the eyes of those who wrote down the words. When the scribes were writing down the words of the prophets, I believe they did their best to get those words as accurate as possible even if they didn't have a clue about what the words themselves meant. I believe God is in the Bible, inspired the Bible, and the Bible is critical to knowing and understanding the story of the people of God.

But the Bible is not God. And was never intended to be worshipped as God. And I do not believe God intends that the Bible be used as a hammer to bludgeon the people into submission to any human authority.

We do not have to turn off our God given logic, reason, and intellect in order to read and benefit from Scriptures or to have faith or to know God and hear his bidding.

 

[Avatar4321]

God is not going to come back until He comes with 10,000 of His saints so how are you going to know if revelation came from a lying spirit or God?
So you're going to get what revealed to you if you were a non-believer?
The evidence of God is seen by the light of creation and if you believe in that you get more light. How do you get from that to Orthodoxy? And if you do, what God will you believe in? Allah?

You know the revelation is from God by listening to what Christ said:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? (Matthew 7:15-16)

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 7:17)

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26)

He is telling us how to judge for ourselves and learn what the doctrine is true. This is just the words Christ said during His Ministry. The Apostles likewise taught how we can obtain the truth:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Gal 5:22-25)

And one of my favorites from James:

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
(James 1:5-6)

The Lord can and does reveal his will to men now just as He did then. I know that because the Lord, through His Grace, has revealed Himself to me. I know of the Goodness of God because of the witness I've recieved from the Holy Spirit. I know the difference between the Spirit of the Lord and other Spirits because of the fruits those Spirit's produce. I learned this from studying the scriptures and through my own personal experiences.

Do you really think that if someone humbles themselves before God and sincerely seeks His will that He won't give them power to tell the difference between His Spirit and an evil one.

=Chuckt;7932965God built His church on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets and the testimony of whom Jesus Christ is. If you take that away, what do you have and how do you get from there to reality? For most people, you don't.

Yes. Christ build His Church upon the Foundation of Apostles and Prophets with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone. So seek the Apostles and Prophets He has called and build His Church upon them with Christ being the Chief Cornerstone. Because the Lord gave:

some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (Eph 4:11-14)

So look to the Apostles and Prophets the Lord has sent us, study the scriptures, and look to the Lord and he will guide us personally.

The same power that is in the words "Let there be light" were "God breathed" into the scriptures. God said in the Old Testament that his words weren't going to return void and that they would accomplish what He set them out to do. There are also 300 prophecies or more in the Bible and just fulfilling some of them are impossible unless you were God. Sir. Robert Anderson was knighted on his work from the Bible on God's prophecy of Israel going into captivity and when they first became a nation in 1948 because no nation in the world went away for four generations, returned and got their land back. The reason the book of Daniel is disputed is because the prophecies happened too exactly that scholars accused the prophet of writing them after the fact because it was that good but yet the book of Daniel predicts Israel becoming a nation again.

If you don't have God's words teaching then what "teaching" are you going to have? When God comes back He is going to rebuke many nations (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3) and He is going to teach us His ways again (Isaiah 2:3, Michah 4:2) and because not only are people not seeking Him but because the iniquity of mankind will be full meaning that life here on Earth will not get any better until God exercises His wrath and He will exercise His wrath by allowing the anti-Christ to come first and God's judgments will be poured out upon the earth.

God's Word is Jesus Christ. If we aren't looking to Him, then we have nothing. Doesn't matter if we teach out of the scriptures if we completely ignore the Word the scriptures pointed to. Christ rebuked the Pharisees for doing just that. They studied the scriptures like no others. Yet, despite living according to the scriptures as they read them they completely missed Him who the Scriptures testified of when He was standing right in front of them. They missed out on recieving more scriptures because of they were so hung up on the old ones.

God is still working among man. He has not changed. He still acts the same way. Why should we presume to tell Him that He has to limit Himself to what was said 2000 years ago?

What is essential doctrine and what is heresy?

That Jesus Christ is the Son of God who atoned for the sins of the world, was crucified and rose from the grave on the third day, ascending into heaven. Everything else is an appendage to that.

I've never seen a man condemned for believing too much, but for unbelief.

Sorry for being so longwinded

 

[Foxfyre]

Evidence of what? I am arguing that people can be called by God apart from Scripture. And you seem to think that is arguing against the existence of God? How do you come to such a conclusion?

We would not know of Abraham's calling or of Moses' calling without the scriptures to inform us. But neither were called through the Scriptures but they were called directly by God himself.

The Scriptures inform us of how God interacts with people and I know from personal experience that God can speak to us through the scriptures.

But the scriptures are not God.

Sometimes I think the reason we don't have the original manuscripts is because God, in his wisdom, knew that humankind would worship those manuscripts instead of God himself. Make of the Bible itself an idol to be worshipped. Sometimes I think people tend to do that anyway and use the Bible as a hammer instead of God's word to bring people to Him.

And I think we need to be careful about that too. The unbeliever uses the Bible as a hammer to try to destroy the faith of the believer. But sometimes I think the believer also uses the Bible as a hammer to force people into a narrow box of orthodoxy that, at least in my belief, God never intended.

Foxfyre,

God is not going to come back until He comes with 10,000s of His saints so how are you going to know if revelation came from a lying spirit or God?
So how are you going to get what God revealed to you if you were a non-believer? That is also dangerous because if we start accepting new revelations then people can add to the Bible based on little evidence and start writing scripture themselves based on lies.
The evidence of God is seen by the light of creation and if you believe in that you get more light. How do you get from that to Orthodoxy? And if you do, what God will you believe in? Allah?

God built His church on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets and the testimony of whom Jesus Christ is. If you take that away, what do you have and how do you get from there to reality? For most people, you don't.


The same power that is in the words "Let there be light" were "God breathed" into the scriptures. God said in the Old Testament that his words weren't going to return void and that they would accomplish what He set them out to do. There are also 300 prophecies or more in the Bible and just fulfilling some of them are impossible unless you were God. Sir. Robert Anderson was knighted on his work from the Bible on God's prophecy of Israel going into captivity and when they first became a nation in 1948 because no nation in the world went away for four generations, returned and got their land back. The reason the book of Daniel is disputed is because the prophecies happened too exactly that scholars accused the prophet of writing them after the fact because it was that good but yet the book of Daniel predicts Israel becoming a nation again.

If you don't have God's words teaching then what "teaching" are you going to have? When God comes back He is going to rebuke many nations (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3) and He is going to teach us His ways again (Isaiah 2:3, Michah 4:2) and because not only are people not seeking Him but because the iniquity of mankind will be full meaning that life here on Earth will not get any better until God exercises His wrath and He will exercise His wrath by allowing the anti-Christ to come first and God's judgments will be poured out upon the earth.

What is essential doctrine and what is heresy?


1) God's Unity

Knowing the true God (John 17:3) is at stake.

2) God's Tri-Unity

Knowing the unity and relational nature of God is at stake.

3) Human Depravity

What is at stake is when we try to deal with the problem of separation and death on our own terms.

4) Christ's Sinlessness

Christ's ability to represent us before God and thus provide salvation for us is at stake.

6) Christ's Deity

What is at stake here is Jesus' ability to save us.

7) Christ's Humanity

What is at stake here is Jesus' ability to fully represent humankind in the atonement.

8) The Necessity of God's grace.

What is at stake is our relationship to God, eternal life.

9) The Necessity of Faith

What is at stake is whether we want to be judged by what we deserve or with God's undeserved favor (grace)

10) Christ's Atoning Death

The unique nature of Jesus' work of salvation is at stake.

11) Christ's bodily resurrection
Proof that Jesus conquered death is at stake.

12) Christ's bodily ascension
The Holy Spirit's work in the life of the believer is at stake.

13) Christ's Intercession
Do you have any assurance that your prayers are heard by God? That is at stake.

14) Christ's second coming
Your hope of being together with Christ is at stake.

15) Inspiration of Scripture

What is at stake is whether we know we have a foundation to believe what is revealed in scripture.

16) Method of Interpretation
What is at stake is whether we know if we're getting scripture just as the author meant it.

(This is the outline to "Essential Doctrine Made Easy" by Dr. Geisler which I heavily adapted.)

Chuck

Chuck, I am not arguing doctrine here. Nor am I attempting or have any interest in turning you away from any doctrine you believe. We almost certainly share many, if not most of the same beliefs re content of the Bible.

My focus here is on how God calls and uses people, how we do not have to lock away our logic, reason, and intellect in order to have faith acceptable to God. And also an argument against making any person, the Bible, or doctrine an idol that cannot be questioned or challenged.

I see Norman Geisler as no more and no less authority than say Catherine Marshall or C.S. Lewis or many others who are godly people fully committed to the living God, who preach the gospel of Christ with simplicity and love, and all who have somewhat different perspectives from each other and from Geisler who I have read as well. I have learned from all, have some points of disagreement with all, and respect all as being used by God to speak God's word.