Orthodox Christianity, False Teachers, Faith, and Reason

[Avatar4321]

The scriptures are tools that are profitable to bring us to the Lord and help us recognize His voice in our lives and eventually to enter into His presence in this life and the Eternities.

This is close to my own belief.

It's the same old dichotomy.

The Bible is all that we need and must be believed in its entirety exactly as my church says it must be believed.

How do you know?

Because the Bible says so.​

Not only does this insult the intellect in other ways, it is entirely illogical to use the Bible as the authority to hold the Bible up as sacrosanct. And also the Bible does not say that about itself.

I believe the Bible is true as it was understood though the eyes of those who wrote down the words. When the scribes were writing down the words of the prophets, I believe they did their best to get those words as accurate as possible even if they didn't have a clue about what the words themselves meant. I believe God is in the Bible, inspired the Bible, and the Bible is critical to knowing and understanding the story of the people of God.

But the Bible is not God. And was never intended to be worshipped as God. And I do not believe God intends that the Bible be used as a hammer to bludgeon the people into submission to any human authority.

We do not have to turn off our God given logic, reason, and intellect in order to read and benefit from Scriptures or to have faith or to know God and hear his bidding.

I think I agree with everything you've written. I worry about people exalting the Bible. Because the Bible is extremely good. It is inspired by God. it is profitable for man. Many claim that it's perfect. But the Bible doesn't claim to be perfect. And it doesn't need to be to point to a perfect God. People are flawed. People have touched it. They've translated it. But the doctrines it teaches are Eternal. And it can lead us to Eternal life. We need to be very careful that we don't make the Bible into an idol. I pray that we all turn to God and live.

 

[Chuckt]

The scriptures are tools that are profitable to bring us to the Lord and help us recognize His voice in our lives and eventually to enter into His presence in this life and the Eternities.

This is close to my own belief.

It's the same old dichotomy.

The Bible is all that we need and must be believed in its entirety exactly as my church says it must be believed.

How do you know?

Because the Bible says so.​

Not only does this insult the intellect in other ways, it is entirely illogical to use the Bible as the authority to hold the Bible up as sacrosanct. And also the Bible does not say that about itself.

I believe the Bible is true as it was understood though the eyes of those who wrote down the words. When the scribes were writing down the words of the prophets, I believe they did their best to get those words as accurate as possible even if they didn't have a clue about what the words themselves meant. I believe God is in the Bible, inspired the Bible, and the Bible is critical to knowing and understanding the story of the people of God.

But the Bible is not God. And was never intended to be worshipped as God. And I do not believe God intends that the Bible be used as a hammer to bludgeon the people into submission to any human authority.

We do not have to turn off our God given logic, reason, and intellect in order to read and benefit from Scriptures or to have faith or to know God and hear his bidding.

Foxfyre,

It is okay to question. It is okay to think for yourself.
I've had people tell me their view are in the Bible only to do a 180 on them and disprove their views were unbiblical in my opinion.

Someone is going to say, "I think God is telling me to divorce my wife." Then what are you going to say? I'm going to say, "no it isn't because it is written down".

God set the foundation and Christianity and Judaism are written down systems of faith.

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


2 Thesalonians 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2 Thesalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thesalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away (g646 ἀποστασία apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Apostasy means to forsake or a defection.

Apostasy

Apostasy (from Greek αποστασία, meaning a defection or revolt, from απο, apo, "away, apart", στασις, stasis, "standing") is a term generally employed to describe the formal abandonment or renunciation of one's religion, especially if the motive is deemed unworthy.

Appendix:Glossary of Jewish terms - Wiktionary


Do you think you can go back and answer the questions I asked you instead of ignore them? I think your answers would be telling.

 

[Foxfyre]

The scriptures are tools that are profitable to bring us to the Lord and help us recognize His voice in our lives and eventually to enter into His presence in this life and the Eternities.

This is close to my own belief.

It's the same old dichotomy.

The Bible is all that we need and must be believed in its entirety exactly as my church says it must be believed.

How do you know?

Because the Bible says so.​

Not only does this insult the intellect in other ways, it is entirely illogical to use the Bible as the authority to hold the Bible up as sacrosanct. And also the Bible does not say that about itself.

I believe the Bible is true as it was understood though the eyes of those who wrote down the words. When the scribes were writing down the words of the prophets, I believe they did their best to get those words as accurate as possible even if they didn't have a clue about what the words themselves meant. I believe God is in the Bible, inspired the Bible, and the Bible is critical to knowing and understanding the story of the people of God.

But the Bible is not God. And was never intended to be worshipped as God. And I do not believe God intends that the Bible be used as a hammer to bludgeon the people into submission to any human authority.

We do not have to turn off our God given logic, reason, and intellect in order to read and benefit from Scriptures or to have faith or to know God and hear his bidding.

Foxfyre,

It is okay to question. It is okay to think for yourself.
I've had people tell me their view are in the Bible only to do a 180 on them and disprove their views were unbiblical in my opinion.

Someone is going to say, "I think God is telling me to divorce my wife." Then what are you going to say? I'm going to say, "no it isn't because it is written down".

God set the foundation and Christianity and Judaism are written down systems of faith.

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


2 Thesalonians 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2 Thesalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thesalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away (g646 ἀποστασία apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Apostasy means to forsake or a defection.

Apostasy

Apostasy (from Greek αποστασία, meaning a defection or revolt, from απο, apo, "away, apart", στασις, stasis, "standing") is a term generally employed to describe the formal abandonment or renunciation of one's religion, especially if the motive is deemed unworthy.

Appendix:Glossary of Jewish terms - Wiktionary


Do you think you can go back and answer the questions I asked you instead of ignore them? I think your answers would be telling.

Sorry Chuck if I missed any direct question you asked. Could I ask you to please repeat the question or questions you would like for me to respond to? Perhaps without a whole page of scriptural quotations in which any personal comments can easily be lost?

 

[Chuckt]

I see Norman Geisler as no more and no less authority than say Catherine Marshall or C.S. Lewis or many others who are godly people fully committed to the living God, who preach the gospel of Christ with simplicity and love, and all who have somewhat different perspectives from each other and from Geisler who I have read as well. I have learned from all, have some points of disagreement with all, and respect all as being used by God to speak God's word.

How many people do you know wrote 50 Christian books and started two Christian colleges? He is considered a Christian Heavyweight. Not many people can do what he has done.

 

[Foxfyre]

I see Norman Geisler as no more and no less authority than say Catherine Marshall or C.S. Lewis or many others who are godly people fully committed to the living God, who preach the gospel of Christ with simplicity and love, and all who have somewhat different perspectives from each other and from Geisler who I have read as well. I have learned from all, have some points of disagreement with all, and respect all as being used by God to speak God's word.

How many people do you know wrote 50 Christian books and started two Christian colleges? He is considered a Christian Heavyweight. Not many people can do what he has done.

Thousands of people have written many books, started many businesses, founded great institutions, amassed great fortunes, and acquired great success, fame, and fortune. But is that enough to make them the authority on what God is speaking to his people today any more than anybody else? Remember that the Widow's mite was all she could give and Jesus valued that more than those who could afford to give much out of their bounty.

Mother Theresa took a vow of poverty and never wrote a single book or started a single university. What she did do, simply by doing what she believe God commanded, was to relieve the pain and suffering of thousands and organize a great ministry that would continue her work among the poorest citizens of Calcutta. Does God give Geisler more authority to speak God's Word than he gave Mother Teresa?

In Isaiah 2:11 we read: "The haughty looks of man shall be brought low, and the lofty pride of men shall be humbled, and the Lord alone will be exalted in that day."

James in 4:6 said: "But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

And from the synoptics we see:
Matthew 19:30 "But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first."

Mark 10:31 "But many who are first will be last, and the last first."

Luke 13:30 "Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."

Jesus didn't call wealthy men who had impressive biographies, who had acheved great success, who had written many books, who had founded institutions to be his disciples. He called poor fishermen and others of humble means. And he also used the rich man in positive ways in his parables and counted Lazarus, a rich man, among his closest friends..

God uses people as HE chooses, both the great, powerful, and wealthy and the humble, poor, and presumably poorly equipped for his purposes. I am taking nothing away from Geisler, who may indeed be a true servant of the Lord, and who the Lord may be using to the fullest of his spiritual gifts, when I say that he may not be the last word as to what any of us are called to believe or do in the service of the Lord.

 

[Foxfyre]

And Chuck, did you overlook this post?

This is close to my own belief.

It's the same old dichotomy.

The Bible is all that we need and must be believed in its entirety exactly as my church says it must be believed.

How do you know?

Because the Bible says so.​

Not only does this insult the intellect in other ways, it is entirely illogical to use the Bible as the authority to hold the Bible up as sacrosanct. And also the Bible does not say that about itself.

I believe the Bible is true as it was understood though the eyes of those who wrote down the words. When the scribes were writing down the words of the prophets, I believe they did their best to get those words as accurate as possible even if they didn't have a clue about what the words themselves meant. I believe God is in the Bible, inspired the Bible, and the Bible is critical to knowing and understanding the story of the people of God.

But the Bible is not God. And was never intended to be worshipped as God. And I do not believe God intends that the Bible be used as a hammer to bludgeon the people into submission to any human authority.

We do not have to turn off our God given logic, reason, and intellect in order to read and benefit from Scriptures or to have faith or to know God and hear his bidding.

Foxfyre,

It is okay to question. It is okay to think for yourself.
I've had people tell me their view are in the Bible only to do a 180 on them and disprove their views were unbiblical in my opinion.

Someone is going to say, "I think God is telling me to divorce my wife." Then what are you going to say? I'm going to say, "no it isn't because it is written down".

God set the foundation and Christianity and Judaism are written down systems of faith.

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


2 Thesalonians 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2 Thesalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thesalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away (g646 ἀποστασία apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Apostasy means to forsake or a defection.

Apostasy

Apostasy (from Greek αποστασία, meaning a defection or revolt, from απο, apo, "away, apart", στασις, stasis, "standing") is a term generally employed to describe the formal abandonment or renunciation of one's religion, especially if the motive is deemed unworthy.

Appendix:Glossary of Jewish terms - Wiktionary


Do you think you can go back and answer the questions I asked you instead of ignore them? I think your answers would be telling.

Sorry Chuck if I missed any direct question you asked. Could I ask you to please repeat the question or questions you would like for me to respond to? Perhaps without a whole page of scriptural quotations in which any personal comments can easily be lost?

 

[Chuckt]

And Chuck, did you overlook this post?

(Extra Deleted)

Sorry Chuck if I missed any direct question you asked. Could I ask you to please repeat the question or questions you would like for me to respond to? Perhaps without a whole page of scriptural quotations in which any personal comments can easily be lost?

Foxfyre,

Discipleship is about following Jesus. When we do things our own way, I don’t think we’re always following Jesus. The reason we get baptized is to show we are dead to ourselves and you're still making decisions for yourself.

Matthew 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Everyone claims they didn’t have a Bible in the first century but the disciples had the Apostles themselves which was the oral Bible if it wasn’t on parchment already:

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Paul gave the foundation of the church to read the Bible:

1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

They followed Jesus so we are supposed to follow the Apostles as an example to know we were following Jesus:

2 Thessalonians 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

Philippians 3:17 ¶ Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

When you break apostolic authority, I have to lump what you’re doing in the category of “Abberant Christianity” because you’re breaking rank so if you aren’t obeying Jesus’ authority He gave the apostles then you are scattering or.

Luke 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

If you’re not with us then you are drawing disciples away after yourself because you aren’t drawing disciples to follow us.

Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

That is what I see. There is no need for further questions.

Chuck

 

[Chuckt]

King James Bible
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 

[Foxfyre]

And Chuck, did you overlook this post?

(Extra Deleted)

Sorry Chuck if I missed any direct question you asked. Could I ask you to please repeat the question or questions you would like for me to respond to? Perhaps without a whole page of scriptural quotations in which any personal comments can easily be lost?

Foxfyre,

Discipleship is about following Jesus. When we do things our own way, I don’t think we’re always following Jesus. The reason we get baptized is to show we are dead to ourselves and you're still making decisions for yourself.

Matthew 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Everyone claims they didn’t have a Bible in the first century but the disciples had the Apostles themselves which was the oral Bible if it wasn’t on parchment already:

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Paul gave the foundation of the church to read the Bible:

1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

They followed Jesus so we are supposed to follow the Apostles as an example to know we were following Jesus:

2 Thessalonians 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

Philippians 3:17 ¶ Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

When you break apostolic authority, I have to lump what you’re doing in the category of “Abberant Christianity” because you’re breaking rank so if you aren’t obeying Jesus’ authority He gave the apostles then you are scattering or.

Luke 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

If you’re not with us then you are drawing disciples away after yourself because you aren’t drawing disciples to follow us.

Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

That is what I see. There is no need for further questions.

Chuck

Okay, then come, let us reason together.

First, if you are of the school of apostolic authority, I believe God blesses your convictions. The Roman Catholic Church is structured on that very theory--though it was not until 1870 and the first Vatican Council that the doctrine of papal infallibility was formally defined. The Roman Catholic Church has long held, however, that the Pope is a direct descendant of Peter and retains apostolic authority. Does God approve this way of thinking? I don't know but he has not given that understanding to me and millions of others. But has the Roman Catholic Church born the brunt of preserving the faith over the millenia on its shoulders? Yes it has. God uses the faithful regardless of their differences of theological belief and I believe the Roman Catholic Church is his Church as much as any other Christian traditions.

But in my opinion, there is as much danger in making of any human an idol, even the Apostles, as there is danger in exalting the Bible to idol status. I believe the Apostle Paul and others warned us of that very thing.

John says in his first epistle: ". . .the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you" (IJohn 2:27) which of course does not mean that should not have teachers and preachers, but that we need no human intercessor between us and the Holy Spirit; between us and the living Christ.

Too many submit to certain people who exalt themselves as God's generals. Some draw people in with their charisma and they invent doctrines for people to follow and insert extra biblical commandments to derail our direct connection to God and lift themselves up as the authority. In Chapter 15 Matthew quotes Jesus as saying ". . .They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men"(9) and . . .then in Verse 14: ". . .Leave them. They are blind guides. If a blind guide leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

In John's 3rd Epistle, he uses the example of Diotrephes who set himself up as a spiritual leader between his congregation and God.

God uses godly men and women to teach us and I have learned much from what he has given them to teach me. But those in tune with the Holy Spirit must always be aware of that nudge that informs us that what we are hearing or reading isn't quite right. As John also said: test the spirits and know that they are from God.

 

[Chuckt]

And Chuck, did you overlook this post?

(Extra Deleted)

Sorry Chuck if I missed any direct question you asked. Could I ask you to please repeat the question or questions you would like for me to respond to? Perhaps without a whole page of scriptural quotations in which any personal comments can easily be lost?

Foxfyre,

Discipleship is about following Jesus. When we do things our own way, I don’t think we’re always following Jesus. The reason we get baptized is to show we are dead to ourselves and you're still making decisions for yourself.

Matthew 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Everyone claims they didn’t have a Bible in the first century but the disciples had the Apostles themselves which was the oral Bible if it wasn’t on parchment already:

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Paul gave the foundation of the church to read the Bible:

1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

They followed Jesus so we are supposed to follow the Apostles as an example to know we were following Jesus:

2 Thessalonians 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

Philippians 3:17 ¶ Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

When you break apostolic authority, I have to lump what you’re doing in the category of “Abberant Christianity” because you’re breaking rank so if you aren’t obeying Jesus’ authority He gave the apostles then you are scattering or.

Luke 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

If you’re not with us then you are drawing disciples away after yourself because you aren’t drawing disciples to follow us.

Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

That is what I see. There is no need for further questions.

Chuck

Okay, then come, let us reason together.

First, if you are of the school of apostolic authority, I believe God blesses your convictions. The Roman Catholic Church is structured on that very theory--though it was not until 1870 and the first Vatican Council that the doctrine of papal infallibility was formally defined. The Roman Catholic Church has long held, however, that the Pope is a direct descendant of Peter and retains apostolic authority. Does God approve this way of thinking? I don't know but he has not given that understanding to me and millions of others. But has the Roman Catholic Church born the brunt of preserving the faith over the millenia on its shoulders? Yes it has. God uses the faithful regardless of their differences of theological belief and I believe the Roman Catholic Church is his Church as much as any other Christian traditions.

But in my opinion, there is as much danger in making of any human an idol, even the Apostles, as there is danger in exalting the Bible to idol status. I believe the Apostle Paul and others warned us of that very thing.

John says in his first epistle: ". . .the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any many teach you" (IJohn 2:27) which of course means that we should not have teachers and preachers, but that we need no human intercessor between us and the Holy Spirit; between us and the living Christ.

Too many submit to certain people who exalt themselves as God's generals. Some draw people in with their charisma and they invent doctrines for people to follow and insert extra biblical commandments to derail our direct connection to God and lift themselves up as the authority. In Chapter 15 Matthew quotes Jesus as saying ". . .They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men"(9) and . . .then in Verse 14: ". . .Leave them. They are blind guides. If a blind guide leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

In John's 3rd Epistle, he uses the example of Diotrephes who set himself up as a spiritual leader between his congregation and God.

God uses godly men and women to teach us and I have learned much from what he has given them to teach me. But those in tune with the Holy Spirit must always be aware of that nudge that informs us that what we are hearing or reading isn't quite right. As John also said: test the spirits and know that they are from God.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

God has given us teachers. Not everyone is meant to teach us.

The Catholic gospel is incomplete. We don't follow the Catholic church.

2 Timothy 3:8 KJV
King James Version
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2 Timothy 3:8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also - Online Bible Study Tools

We don't follow other gospels or other versions of the truth including your own. That is why I will stick with the Bible.

 

[Foxfyre]

Foxfyre,

Discipleship is about following Jesus. When we do things our own way, I don’t think we’re always following Jesus. The reason we get baptized is to show we are dead to ourselves and you're still making decisions for yourself.

Matthew 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Everyone claims they didn’t have a Bible in the first century but the disciples had the Apostles themselves which was the oral Bible if it wasn’t on parchment already:

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Paul gave the foundation of the church to read the Bible:

1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

They followed Jesus so we are supposed to follow the Apostles as an example to know we were following Jesus:

2 Thessalonians 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

Philippians 3:17 ¶ Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

When you break apostolic authority, I have to lump what you’re doing in the category of “Abberant Christianity” because you’re breaking rank so if you aren’t obeying Jesus’ authority He gave the apostles then you are scattering or.

Luke 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

If you’re not with us then you are drawing disciples away after yourself because you aren’t drawing disciples to follow us.

Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

That is what I see. There is no need for further questions.

Chuck

Okay, then come, let us reason together.

First, if you are of the school of apostolic authority, I believe God blesses your convictions. The Roman Catholic Church is structured on that very theory--though it was not until 1870 and the first Vatican Council that the doctrine of papal infallibility was formally defined. The Roman Catholic Church has long held, however, that the Pope is a direct descendant of Peter and retains apostolic authority. Does God approve this way of thinking? I don't know but he has not given that understanding to me and millions of others. But has the Roman Catholic Church born the brunt of preserving the faith over the millenia on its shoulders? Yes it has. God uses the faithful regardless of their differences of theological belief and I believe the Roman Catholic Church is his Church as much as any other Christian traditions.

But in my opinion, there is as much danger in making of any human an idol, even the Apostles, as there is danger in exalting the Bible to idol status. I believe the Apostle Paul and others warned us of that very thing.

John says in his first epistle: ". . .the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any many teach you" (IJohn 2:27) which of course means that we should not have teachers and preachers, but that we need no human intercessor between us and the Holy Spirit; between us and the living Christ.

Too many submit to certain people who exalt themselves as God's generals. Some draw people in with their charisma and they invent doctrines for people to follow and insert extra biblical commandments to derail our direct connection to God and lift themselves up as the authority. In Chapter 15 Matthew quotes Jesus as saying ". . .They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men"(9) and . . .then in Verse 14: ". . .Leave them. They are blind guides. If a blind guide leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

In John's 3rd Epistle, he uses the example of Diotrephes who set himself up as a spiritual leader between his congregation and God.

God uses godly men and women to teach us and I have learned much from what he has given them to teach me. But those in tune with the Holy Spirit must always be aware of that nudge that informs us that what we are hearing or reading isn't quite right. As John also said: test the spirits and know that they are from God.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

God has given us teachers. Not everyone is meant to teach us.

The Catholic gospel is incomplete. We don't follow the Catholic church.

2 Timothy 3:8 KJV
King James Version
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2 Timothy 3:8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also - Online Bible Study Tools

We don't follow other gospels or other versions of the truth including your own. That is why I will stick with the Bible.

Yes God gives each of us talents to increase and use for his purposes. God gives each of us ministries and spiritual gifts to use to complete them. I have been very clear that all are not called to preach, all are not called to teach, all are not called to do any one ministry. But you seemed to hold up Geisler, for instance, as apostolic authority. I don't even as I believe God can use Geisler to teach me and perhaps can use me to teach Geisler.

And how do you know that the Catholic gospel is incomplete? Who has the authority to say that? Who gave such authority his authority?

You said in your previous post:
"When you break apostolic authority, I have to lump what you’re doing in the category of “Abberant Christianity” because you’re breaking rank so if you aren’t obeying Jesus’ authority He gave the apostles then you are scattering or." Yet you reject the Roman Catholic Church though no Christian tradition has been more faithful to apostolic authority than have the Roman Catholics.

So let's try to stay on a single track here, okay? You held up Norman Geisler as an authority. But he didn't write the Bible. So where does he get his authority? And now you say to stick with the Bible.

I am sticking with the Bible in making my arguments too. And yet you disagree with me. How can that be?

 

[Chuckt]

Yes God gives each of us talents to increase and use for his purposes. God gives each of us ministries and spiritual gifts to use to complete them. I have been very clear that all are not called to preach, all are not called to teach, all are not called to do any one ministry. But you seemed to hold up Geisler, for instance, as apostolic authority. I don't even as I believe God can use Geisler to teach me and perhaps can use me to teach Geisler.

And how do you know that the Catholic gospel is incomplete? Who has the authority to say that? Who gave such authority his authority?

You said in your previous post:
"When you break apostolic authority, I have to lump what you’re doing in the category of “Abberant Christianity” because you’re breaking rank so if you aren’t obeying Jesus’ authority He gave the apostles then you are scattering or." Yet you reject the Roman Catholic Church though no Christian tradition has been more faithful to apostolic authority than have the Roman Catholics.

So let's try to stay on a single track here, okay? You held up Norman Geisler as an authority. But he didn't write the Bible. So where does he get his authority? And now you say to stick with the Bible.

I am sticking with the Bible in making my arguments too. And yet you disagree with me. How can that be?

Dr. Geisler is qualified to teach. I didn't say he is perfect or he has apostolic authority.

When I say "Apostle" or "Apostolic authority", I mean that you have to be witnesses to the things in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ or you have to have seen the risen Christ which was a one time event thousands of years ago to have been an apostle.

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the fllock."-Acts 20:29

"..the epistles of 2 Peter and Jude (among the last New Testament books written) exhort believers to avoid false doctrines by recalling the teachings of the New Testament apostles (2 Peter 1:12-15; 2:1; 3:2, 14-16; Jude 3,4,17-19)."-Dr. Ron Rhodes, p 350, The Complete Book of Bible Answers

Peter thought the office of apostolic authority was ending in his day

2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Peter didn't say to listen to apostles or teachers say today but tells us to remember what the apostles said. That is why their patterns are followed and why we won't follow someone like you into uncharted territory.

Jude 1:3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

The faith was once delivered to us. We don't need it handed down by a modern day apostle or you. Our faith is complete. We don't need you.

 

[Foxfyre]

Fair enough Chuck. You wouldn't be the first to believe you have the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth and the rest of us don't. But in my faith, God loves you anyway, and will use you for His glory if you allow it. I hoped you would engage me in a reasoned debate, but some traditions cannot and will not allow that. I wish you every blessing and all the best.

 

[Chuckt]

Article I—The Scriptures

We believe that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God,” by which we understand the whole Bible is inspired in the sense that holy men of God “were moved by the Holy Spirit” to write the very words of Scripture. We believe that this divine inspiration extends equally and fully to all parts of the writings—historical, poetical, doctrinal, and prophetical—as appeared in the original manuscripts. We believe that the whole Bible in the originals is therefore without error. We believe that all the Scriptures center about the Lord Jesus Christ in His person and work in His first and second coming, and hence that no portion, even of the Old Testament, is properly read, or understood, until it leads to Him. We also believe that all the Scriptures were designed for our practical instruction (Mark 12:26, 36; 13:11; Luke 24:27, 44; John 5:39; Acts 1:16; 17:2–3; 18:28; 26:22–23; 28:23; Rom. 15:4; 1 Cor. 2:13; 10:11; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:21).

Doctrinal Statement | Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS)

VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.[12] Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word:[13] and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.[14]

Westminster Confession of Faith

 

[loa]

What an interesting thread! Thank you for putting it up, FoxFyre.

I'm coming into the conversation a bit late - sorry about that, but I get really busy and then may have a day or two of down time. That said, here is how I view the comments/question:

I think we are supposed to search, learn, look, think about what we hear and see. That includes what preachers tell you and that includes what you are reading in the Bible or other materials. If this were not so, then there would be no reason to exhort people to test every spirit - we wouldn't have to.

The NT warns against divisions and factionalism and I have always viewed the differences between Christians in the following way: we are a body and it makes sense to me that a 'head' may need a different sort of training and environment than a 'hand' does. People have very different intellects and needs, so I think some of the things we hold dear are dear to us because of individual need, rather than any corporate requirement. So, when one believer tells me they go to 'this church' and another tells me 'that church', my first assumption is they have chosen an environment that works with their particular duty/gift. IOW, I don't assume a negative from it.

The NT also speaks of differences in ways that make upholding each other the utmost important thing. For instance, if I feel I have freedom in the Lord to allow something, yet another thinks it is a grievous thing, then it would be wrong of me to shove my feeling of freedom in their face. The exhortation is to uphold and help others grow, right?

So, what can we take away from the ideas FoxFyre wrote that would be of benefit every day? Maybe to have a bit more love for each other, a bit more grace and mercy.

K.

 

[Chuckt]

So, what can we take away from the ideas FoxFyre wrote that would be of benefit every day? Maybe to have a bit more love for each other, a bit more grace and mercy.

Love someone? Yes. Recognition for someone? No.

The terms of friendship is that relationships are reciprocol or complimentary.

Is it reciprocol or complimentary for someone to change what we believe? No.

Nobody cares more about me than me or my parents. My parents clothed me, fed me, took care of me when I was sick. Did you put any time in when I was growing up and care for me more than other people? No. That means that not all relationships are equal and the truths you will bring are not equal.

Not all truth is equal. God is the source of truth. The Apostles and Prophets died for that truth. I don't see you or other people suffering for the truth.

Ideas have consequences and I'm not your sheep. If I wanted to be a Jehovah's Witness then I would go to a kingdom hall. If I wanted to be Unitarian then I would go to a Unitarian Church.

The world can have Rob Bell but you can't have me because love ceases to be love when love doesn't protect others or me and when the door is allowed open for experimentation then you have more in common with the theological methadon clinic than me.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

What an interesting thread! Thank you for putting it up, FoxFyre.

I'm coming into the conversation a bit late - sorry about that, but I get really busy and then may have a day or two of down time. That said, here is how I view the comments/question:

I think we are supposed to search, learn, look, think about what we hear and see. That includes what preachers tell you and that includes what you are reading in the Bible or other materials. If this were not so, then there would be no reason to exhort people to test every spirit - we wouldn't have to.

The NT warns against divisions and factionalism and I have always viewed the differences between Christians in the following way: we are a body and it makes sense to me that a 'head' may need a different sort of training and environment than a 'hand' does. People have very different intellects and needs, so I think some of the things we hold dear are dear to us because of individual need, rather than any corporate requirement. So, when one believer tells me they go to 'this church' and another tells me 'that church', my first assumption is they have chosen an environment that works with their particular duty/gift. IOW, I don't assume a negative from it.

The NT also speaks of differences in ways that make upholding each other the utmost important thing. For instance, if I feel I have freedom in the Lord to allow something, yet another thinks it is a grievous thing, then it would be wrong of me to shove my feeling of freedom in their face. The exhortation is to uphold and help others grow, right?

So, what can we take away from the ideas FoxFyre wrote that would be of benefit every day? Maybe to have a bit more love for each other, a bit more grace and mercy.

K.

Loa, I found Chucks reponse to the false teachings presented on this thread by Foxfyr to be very useful for the exhortation of the body of Christ to contend for the Faith, to expose false teachings and defend the Word of God.

I, myself, would prefer never to encounter a false teacher as one of the angles they will use is to make themselves appear innocent while those who challenge they attempt to accuse of creating a faction or disagreement.

Of course the Word of God teaches us the truth on this too! The bible commands us to not be silent in the face of false teaching. The Apostle Paul was quote bold in his dealings with those who opposed the Gospel of Jesus Christ. See Acts 13:6. There are repeated warnings in the bible about false teachers and those who oppose the Gospel of Jesus Christ to prevent others from learning the Sovereignty of God's Word and I believe Chuck has done a very good job of defending the faith and exposing the many errors in Foxyfyres new age style faith here. There is only one way. Not many, Loa. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life and no man comes to the Father except through the Son.

I am just reading the follow up to this thread this morning and as I expected no one was able to disannul the Word of God because the Word of God is the truth! When someones teachings do not line up with the Word of God? We know we are looking at false teaching. We do not extend grace and mercy to false teachers, Loa. We expose them with the Light of God's Word. This is what it means to "Contend" for the Faith.

 

[Foxfyre]

What an interesting thread! Thank you for putting it up, FoxFyre.

I'm coming into the conversation a bit late - sorry about that, but I get really busy and then may have a day or two of down time. That said, here is how I view the comments/question:

I think we are supposed to search, learn, look, think about what we hear and see. That includes what preachers tell you and that includes what you are reading in the Bible or other materials. If this were not so, then there would be no reason to exhort people to test every spirit - we wouldn't have to.

The NT warns against divisions and factionalism and I have always viewed the differences between Christians in the following way: we are a body and it makes sense to me that a 'head' may need a different sort of training and environment than a 'hand' does. People have very different intellects and needs, so I think some of the things we hold dear are dear to us because of individual need, rather than any corporate requirement. So, when one believer tells me they go to 'this church' and another tells me 'that church', my first assumption is they have chosen an environment that works with their particular duty/gift. IOW, I don't assume a negative from it.

The NT also speaks of differences in ways that make upholding each other the utmost important thing. For instance, if I feel I have freedom in the Lord to allow something, yet another thinks it is a grievous thing, then it would be wrong of me to shove my feeling of freedom in their face. The exhortation is to uphold and help others grow, right?

So, what can we take away from the ideas FoxFyre wrote that would be of benefit every day? Maybe to have a bit more love for each other, a bit more grace and mercy.

K.

Welcome Loa. I was inspired to start this thread for the purpose of exploring and discussing the concept of differences in our varius beliefs and traditions, yet God can and does use us for his purposes just the same. And somewhere in there was an invitation to discuss the hard questions of the Bible, of faith, of religion, etc. So I am pleased that you are here.

Chuck alas has declared me unworthy to discuss these subjects and I will respect that.

Jeremiah (on another thread) has declared me unworthy to speak to at all. And I respect that.

So I'm tickled to have somebody to talk to.

You and I seem to agree that God respects those who differ in their understandings in matters of faith and theology, etc. and you seem to agree that God uses us all who are willing to be used despite our differences. I think the NT is pretty plain when it comes to respecting the traditions and taboos of others--i.e. do no harm--even though we are not bound to those ourselves.

I hope to continue but I have to scurry off to the early church service now. Back in a couple of hours. But again, welcome aboard.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

And Chuck, did you overlook this post?

(Extra Deleted)

Sorry Chuck if I missed any direct question you asked. Could I ask you to please repeat the question or questions you would like for me to respond to? Perhaps without a whole page of scriptural quotations in which any personal comments can easily be lost?

Foxfyre,

Discipleship is about following Jesus. When we do things our own way, I don’t think we’re always following Jesus. The reason we get baptized is to show we are dead to ourselves and you're still making decisions for yourself.

Matthew 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Everyone claims they didn’t have a Bible in the first century but the disciples had the Apostles themselves which was the oral Bible if it wasn’t on parchment already:

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Paul gave the foundation of the church to read the Bible:

1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

They followed Jesus so we are supposed to follow the Apostles as an example to know we were following Jesus:

2 Thessalonians 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

Philippians 3:17 ¶ Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

When you break apostolic authority, I have to lump what you’re doing in the category of “Abberant Christianity” because you’re breaking rank so if you aren’t obeying Jesus’ authority He gave the apostles then you are scattering or.

Luke 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

If you’re not with us then you are drawing disciples away after yourself because you aren’t drawing disciples to follow us.

Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

That is what I see. There is no need for further questions.

Chuck

I'm glad to see you won't take any more questions from him, Chuck. The Holy Spirit taught me to have nothing to do with false teachers once it is confirmed to me they are operating in false doctrine, deception and cunning craftiness. ( by their fruits ye shall know them <----the Spirit of God will point it out to us! Thank God for the Holy Ghost! ) It was years ago someone said 70 - 80% of all questions were statements in disguise. I do not know if the individual has the percentages correct but the truth of the matter is some questions are not questions but rather carefully disguised statements hidden under the guise of a "question"...

It is just another tool of craftiness for the workers of iniquity I believe. This is interesting, Brother. For three days the Holy Spirit has been repeatedly bringing up the importance of exposing false teachers and their various methods, teachings, giving examples, etc so that the people who listen to them will at least have the opportunity of seeing truth side by side to the traps of satan layed before them. The Scriptures declare, My people perish for lack of knowledge! Oh! How true is! People are saved in huge stadiums, tens of thousands accept Christ at evangelical outreaches but who disciples these new baby Christians? So it is interesting to find you here exposing these false teachings with the Written Word of God! Hallelujah! To God be the Glory!

This is so important! The Lord has laid upon my heart to pray for more Laborers ( who know the Word of God ) who can protect the sheep from ravenous wolves who have entered into the flock to devour them and also that the Lords Laborers will come along side them with the Truth of Gods Word and point the way to the Narrow Path Jesus tells us we must be on to enter into heaven.

The Lord has led me to present the Gospel and the Epistles on this board and then the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to the hearer. And others will start threads like this knowing that the threads I start such as the one on False Teachers using the Book of Jude ( which preceded this thread ) will drive to the surface those who know they are error. Even their own consciences condemn them, how much more so the Light of Gods Word on the matter! This is not being done in ignorance but rather this is being done intentionally to lead the children of God astray! Is there anything more wicked? Oh! This truly must grieve the Heart of God to see such wickedness, Chuck! I praise God for your steadfastness in defending the truth on this thread!!

Yes, I have seen how God has used you on this thread, Chuck and I believe with all my heart God is well pleased with you, brother. I pray God blesses you for showing such love towards the unsaved, the unchurched, the little ones that may otherwise have fallen into the deception, the lies, the traps being laid on this board for a wide is the path teaching rather than the narrow path Jesus teaches us we must be on.

When I read this thread in its entirety, Ephesians 4: 13 came to me. Here it is:

It is written:

Till we all come into the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

-Ephesians 4: 13,14

This scripture is very important in warning baby christians, unchurched christians, christians who have not yet truly studied the Word of God to realize that not all men study the Word of God to bring unity in the Holy Spirit and come into the knowledge of Son of God and the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ nor do they study it for the winning of souls to the Kingdom of Heaven but rather they have studied it in order to learn how to craftily bring in every wind of doctrine ( in this thread it is new age, interfaithism with all cults, false teachings included ) carefully weaving lies and heresies into the Word of God, by their trickery. It is with cunning craftiness that they lie in wait to deceive!

Until the false teachers, false prophets are exposed and removed from the flock there cannot be true unity within a church because there is no unity between the sons of God and the sons of Belial. How well the workers of darkness know this!

We are warned to "come out from among them and be ye separated".. We cannot drink from the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. We cannot mix spirituality with carnality... truth with falsehood...

A pure spring cannot flow forth poluted water.... it is not possible.. it is one or the other.. there is no fellowship with the workers of darkness. The Word of God does not teach us to "go along to get along" - the Word of God teaches us to Contend for the Faith! To Fight the Good Fight! To Defend the Truth of Gods Word!

I believe that one day you will hear the Lord say to you, Chuck, Well done, good and faithful servant.

 

[pacer]

The terms of friendship is that relationships are reciprocol or complimentary.

God commanded, “love thy neighbor as thyself”. He did not put any stipulations on it. It would be a selfish God who would command we love only those who reciprocate their love. I interpret the commandment to mean love thy fellow man in the sense we value and appreciate our fellow beings.

I would appreciate your input, FoxFire. Count me in as one who very much enjoys reading your thoughts on these subjects.