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OPINION: Why mRNA Vaccines are failing.

badger2

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We do not know the actual the transmission rate of the omicron variant, nor do we know how effective the the various vaccines will be against it. It will be 3 or 4 weeks before we know the transmission rate and bout 2 weeks before we know how effective our vaccines will be against this new variant.

Keep in mind that the mu variant was reported a few months ago in South America and created much anxiety. The transmission rate was estimated to be very high. As it turned out the transmission rate was much less than the delta variant and it was no longer considered a variant of interest even though vaccines were slightly less effective against it.

The coronavirus mutates more than most viruses so we will be seeing many mutations of interest. Since every time the the virus replicates which has to be at least trillions of times a second, there is an opportunity for mutation. Most of those mutation are no interest but occasion one occurs that is a potential threat. The only way to reduce mutations is to reduce replications and the only what to do that is through vaccinations, masks, and social distancing.
Vaccinations target only the spike, so the non-spike mutations now being added and that are being fear-mongered for Omicron/Nu are not applicable to vaccine arguments until the virus is inside the host, and the viral loads on the surface of mouths, throats, nasal passages, are also not applicable to vaccine arguments. Those viral loads are the same in both vaxxed and unvaxxed.
 

eagle1462010

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Variants of concern should become less numerous as the virus weakens in the host.
Hope so. Unless the vaccines leak and cause worse variants.
 

Flopper

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Which was my point. It's not going away. And Delta will not be the last variant of concern.
I agree. Once a virus becomes a pandemic it is virtually impossible to completely eliminate it. The virus that caused the Spanish Influenza, the H1N1 influenza A virus is still around today. In fact, it has caused a number of pandemics killing millions of people. The flu vaccine was developed to protect against H1N1 A. If enough people were vaccinated in the world, we could eliminate it as a source of epidemics but that will likely never happen. In the US less than half the population get's the flu vaccine yearly and the percentage is much less for rest of world.

SAR-Cov-2 may not be going away but we can reduce it's impact throughout the world with vaccines and antivirals such that people can return to more normal life.
 
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Fort Fun Indiana

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From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.

Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.

Modified RNA vaccines look for "parts" of the virus, not the virus itself. While they will lessen the severity if you do become infected, once the antibodies are gone its the same as never having seen the virus, as you body did not have to heal and create B and T cells in your bone marrow. The antibodies were triggered by a part of a virus and not the virus, in this case, the "spike proteins". You gain no long term protections.

This is also why you can become infectious to others. The virus grows unabated until there are sufficient "spike proteins" to trigger a response from your immune system. This is why people get ill, become infective, but have very mild cases. It is the lack of healing and the trigger by spike proteins which stops the body from creating long term immunities in B and T cells. Once your antibodies are gone from this mRNA vaccine your body has never seen or reacted to the actual virus, you are now a walking time bomb again to have a very sever case.

In summary;

* The "trigger" for your immune system is the spike proteins and not the virus. The human bodies immune system never trains itself to look for the virus. No long term immunity is formed.

* Once the active antibodies are gone from a mRNA virus you are again at risk to become ill. Without the formation of long term immunities in your bone marrow which look for the virus you do not gain these.

* Because the mRNA vaccine trains the body to look for the 'spike proteins', the virus will run rampant until it creates sufficient mass to trigger the antibody response from the spike proteins. This time period allows the viral load to amass and the person to become infective to others. The body never responds to the virus as a threat. The antibodies will attack anything that has the spike proteins present so it kills the infection.

* mRNA antibodies rapidly decrease at 3-4 months. By 5-9 months they are insufficient to foster further protections.

* mRNA vaccines cause swelling of cardiac tissues in persons under the age of 25 and blood clots in women.

The studies coming out about the efficacy of the mRNA vaccines is stunning. Problems, like viral transmission, were not foreseen by the creator of the method. While this method does make early vaccine intervention possible, it is not a long term solution to endemic viruses such as COVID-19. Using identifiable parts of a virus can give some protection to mutation outbreaks, if the right part is used, but it can also have unforeseen bad outcomes.

In My Opinion, the fact that mRNA vaccine are incapable of creating long term memory and immunities makes them a stop gap measure until a more suitable vaccine can be created which does. Now Europe is seeing its third wave because of waning vaccine antibodies. Something needs to change fast or this will cycle never stop. I am glad that I have had the virus and have acquired (non-vaccine) driven immunities. My body has long term memory cells so my problem is over as far as COVID 19 is concerned.

References:
mRNA vaccines are wildly successful. No vaccine will cover all variants, mRNA or otherwise.
 

Flopper

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Vaccinations target only the spike, so the non-spike mutations now being added and that are being fear-mongered for Omicron/Nu are not applicable to vaccine arguments until the virus is inside the host, and the viral loads on the surface of mouths, throats, nasal passages, are also not applicable to vaccine arguments. Those viral loads are the same in both vaxxed and unvaxxed.
The WHO monitors all reported variants classifying them in one of 3 categories, Variants of Interest, Variants of Concern, and Variants of High Consequence. So far there is not sufficient data to classify the Omicron variant. However, we do know that the Omicron variant has 30 to 40 mutations of the spike protein. Whether it becomes an "also-run" or of major concern, depends on it's transmission rate relative to the delta variant and the effect of the spike mutations on efficacy of the vaccines. If efficacy of vaccines drops significantly and the transmission rate is high, then we likely have updates to vaccines in 6 to 12 months. The mRNA vaccines are said to to be easy to modify to account for spike protein mutations, not sure about the other vaccines.
 

badger2

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I agree. Once a virus becomes a pandemic it is virtually impossible to completely eliminate it. The virus that caused the Spanish Influenza, the H1N1 influenza A virus is still around today. In fact, it has caused a number of pandemics killing millions of people. The flu vaccine was developed to protect against H1N1 A. If enough people were vaccinated in the world, we could eliminate it as a source of epidemics but that will likely never happen. In the US less than half the population get's the flu vaccine yearly and the percentage is much less for rest of world.

SAR-Cov-2 may not be going away but we can reduce it's impact throughout the world with vaccines and antivirals such that people can return to more normal life.
We have already made an important influenza link in post #870:
 

badger2

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The WHO monitors all reported variants classifying them in one of 3 categories, Variants of Interest, Variants of Concern, and Variants of High Consequence. So far there is not sufficient data to classify the Omicron variant. However, we do know that the Omicron variant has 30 to 40 mutations of the spike protein. Whether it becomes an "also-run" or of major concern, depends on it's transmission rate relative to the delta variant and the effect of the spike mutations on efficacy of the vaccines. If efficacy of vaccines drops significantly and the transmission rate is high, then we likely have updates to vaccines in 6 to 12 months. The mRNA vaccines are said to to be easy to modify to account for spike protein mutations, not sure about the other vaccines.
But there is sufficient data to expose the CDC changing mutations on its variants page according to WHO categorization, Einstein. One important location is position 417.
 

badger2

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There won't be any reliable data for at least two weeks. I would be very suspicious of any information before then. I heard that there were 40 mutations to the spike protein. This is of real concern because the spike protein is an earmark of this virus and is what most of our vaccines depend on for identification by the immune system.
34 mutations. And we refuse to wait for more propaganda. Analysis and critique is already underway on another thread.
 

Flopper

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From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.

Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.

Modified RNA vaccines look for "parts" of the virus, not the virus itself. While they will lessen the severity if you do become infected, once the antibodies are gone its the same as never having seen the virus, as you body did not have to heal and create B and T cells in your bone marrow. The antibodies were triggered by a part of a virus and not the virus, in this case, the "spike proteins". You gain no long term protections.

This is also why you can become infectious to others. The virus grows unabated until there are sufficient "spike proteins" to trigger a response from your immune system. This is why people get ill, become infective, but have very mild cases. It is the lack of healing and the trigger by spike proteins which stops the body from creating long term immunities in B and T cells. Once your antibodies are gone from this mRNA vaccine your body has never seen or reacted to the actual virus, you are now a walking time bomb again to have a very sever case.

In summary;

* The "trigger" for your immune system is the spike proteins and not the virus. The human bodies immune system never trains itself to look for the virus. No long term immunity is formed.

* Once the active antibodies are gone from a mRNA virus you are again at risk to become ill. Without the formation of long term immunities in your bone marrow which look for the virus you do not gain these.

* Because the mRNA vaccine trains the body to look for the 'spike proteins', the virus will run rampant until it creates sufficient mass to trigger the antibody response from the spike proteins. This time period allows the viral load to amass and the person to become infective to others. The body never responds to the virus as a threat. The antibodies will attack anything that has the spike proteins present so it kills the infection.

* mRNA antibodies rapidly decrease at 3-4 months. By 5-9 months they are insufficient to foster further protections.

* mRNA vaccines cause swelling of cardiac tissues in persons under the age of 25 and blood clots in women.

The studies coming out about the efficacy of the mRNA vaccines is stunning. Problems, like viral transmission, were not foreseen by the creator of the method. While this method does make early vaccine intervention possible, it is not a long term solution to endemic viruses such as COVID-19. Using identifiable parts of a virus can give some protection to mutation outbreaks, if the right part is used, but it can also have unforeseen bad outcomes.

In My Opinion, the fact that mRNA vaccine are incapable of creating long term memory and immunities makes them a stop gap measure until a more suitable vaccine can be created which does. Now Europe is seeing its third wave because of waning vaccine antibodies. Something needs to change fast or this will cycle never stop. I am glad that I have had the virus and have acquired (non-vaccine) driven immunities. My body has long term memory cells so my problem is over as far as COVID 19 is concerned.

References:
Not to discredit your post, but mRNA means messenger RNA not modified RNA.
 

badger2

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I do not know yet. Wasn't my point. My point is will this be an endless wack a mole with this virus?
If O is a variation of Delta and O causes a mild infection, then increased transmissibility argues against endless whack a mole.
 

Flopper

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mRNA vaccines are wildly successful. No vaccine will cover all variants, mRNA or otherwise.
One of the major selling feature mRNA vaccines is that they can be easy modified to reflect mutations in the spike protein. In fact the Pfizer vaccine is a modification of the lipid nanoparticles vaccine that went into clinical trials in 2015. The ability to easily modify the vaccine was important because it was well known that the coronavirus family of viruses have a high rate of mutations. A need for an update would come as no surprise to the vaccine developers.
The tangled history of mRNA vaccines
 

Flopper

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If O is a variation of Delta and O causes a mild infection, then increased transmissibility argues against endless whack a mole.
That maybe true, but it is too early to make that assumption.
 
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boedicca

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The Vaxxes are not vaccines. They are experimental gene altering mRNA treatments. Such treatments have failed when tested on animals, which is why humans are now the lab rat population.
 

eagle1462010

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What we need are Better Treatment options that don't cost an arm and a leg to get like other countries. Everything I've read says EARLY TREATMENT IS KEY to Covid. Countries like India did this and gave them out for free so they could take them right away without the BS And their deaths dropped dramatically.

Why ISN'T THIS BEING DONE HERE?
 
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Billy_Bob

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Not to discredit your post, but mRNA means messenger RNA not modified RNA.
Modification of the messenger.... IE: Spike proteins.
 
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Billy_Bob

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What we need are Better Treatment options that don't cost an arm and a leg to get like other countries. Everything I've read says EARLY TREATMENT IS KEY to Covid. Countries like India did this and gave them out for free so they could take them right away without the BS And their deaths dropped dramatically.

Why ISN'T THIS BEING DONE HERE?
We have Big Pharma donating to campaigns. These politicians block the use of cheap drugs that work so that the more expensive big pharma choices are used.. Follow the money... This needs to stop..
 

badger2

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One of the major selling feature mRNA vaccines is that they can be easy modified to reflect mutations in the spike protein. In fact the Pfizer vaccine is a modification of the lipid nanoparticles vaccine that went into clinical trials in 2015. The ability to easily modify the vaccine was important because it was well known that the coronavirus family of viruses have a high rate of mutations. A need for an update would come as no surprise to the vaccine developers.
The tangled history of mRNA vaccines
That’s no reason to add non-spike Omicron mutations to scare little boys and girls with the communist virus. Besides, the mRNA vaccine is extremely dubious being used in immature immune systems.
 

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