One big thing that confuses about Islam and perhaps someone can explain it.

[irosie91]

No wonder there's antisemitism. You're obnoxious.

what is "obnoxious" in Rylah? There is
antisemitism wherever there is christianity
and LOTS more where there is islam. Read
your koran. When I was a kid of about 20,
a copy of the PICKTHALL version of the
koran fell into my hands. I looked thru the
pages------SHEEEESH---lots of reference to
JEWS---so I read KHARAHAN

 

[irosie91]

PS----I should add that I spent my childhood
in a town, founded in pre-revolutionary days
by EPISCOPALIANS, full of girls who attended
sunday school in nylon pastel dresses --weekly--, also Lutherans and Methodists, and catholics, who actually believed the Sunday school,ladies who said "DA JOOOS KILLED JESUS"----
and the bunny brings jelly beans on easter.

 

[irosie91]

OH? like Shistosomiasis?

suradie disagrees that shistosomiasis has
infected the middle east for thousands of
years ????

 

[BreezeWood]

suradie disagrees that shistosomiasis has
infected the middle east for thousands of
years ????

Jews don't deny the historic context of the Hebrew heritage.
But Arab imperialists will murder for mere caricature...

Arab imperialists claim entitlement to all civilizations before them,
that they've enslaved and colonized in the entire Middle East and Africa.

if it is parasitic worms why not include the 3rd mutation, christianity with the other 2 madeup desert religions.

- surly, there is hope, a cure may be found any day now ...

 

[FA_Q2]

It is at the very core of Islam that there is a freedom of choice. Once again, you're asking questions you know the answers to. Reminds me of that story in the Quran — you know the one about the cow.

That seems to be one of the disconnects in Islam as far as I can tell.

Quran in English - Clear and Easy to Read.

Quran Translated to Modern English. Clear, Pure, Easy to Understand.

www.clearquran.com

Sura 10:
99. Had your Lord willed, everyone on earth would have believed. Will you compel people to become believers?
100. No soul can believe except by God’s leave; and He lays disgrace upon those who refuse to understand.

That is clearly contrary to the idea of free will, souls only believe if Allah wills it. The first line seems to indicate Allah will not force everyone to believe but the second clearly indicates that you may only believe if Allah allows it. If Allah gives us all leave to believe then the second verse is meaningless. It makes no sense in that context. There are many versus exactly like this one, the Quran states over and over and over again that it is Allah who decides what you will and will not believe.

Then in other places it seems to state the exact opposite...

In 16 we get the same story:
93. Had God willed, He would have made you one congregation, but He leaves astray whom He wills, and He guides whom He wills. And you will surely be questioned about what you used to do.

He will lead those that he wishes but leave the others astray. Again, this looks a lot like stating he will make some believe while ignoring others. Hardly a show of free will.

 

[Uranus]

That seems to be one of the disconnects in Islam as far as I can tell.

Quran in English - Clear and Easy to Read.

Quran Translated to Modern English. Clear, Pure, Easy to Understand.

www.clearquran.com

Sura 10:
99. Had your Lord willed, everyone on earth would have believed. Will you compel people to become believers?
100. No soul can believe except by God’s leave; and He lays disgrace upon those who refuse to understand.

That is clearly contrary to the idea of free will, souls only believe if Allah wills it. The first line seems to indicate Allah will not force everyone to believe but the second clearly indicates that you may only believe if Allah allows it. If Allah gives us all leave to believe then the second verse is meaningless. It makes no sense in that context. There are many versus exactly like this one, the Quran states over and over and over again that it is Allah who decides what you will and will not believe.

Then in other places it seems to state the exact opposite...

In 16 we get the same story:
93. Had God willed, He would have made you one congregation, but He leaves astray whom He wills, and He guides whom He wills. And you will surely be questioned about what you used to do.

He will lead those that he wishes but leave the others astray. Again, this looks a lot like stating he will make some believe while ignoring others. Hardly a show of free will.

The will of a man is subject to the will of Allah. This doesn't mean a man is compelled to do anything. For example, if someone slapped you on the face and said, "that was a divine decree", would you accept that as an excuse — i.e. that there was nothing they could do to prevent it? Of course not, you know and they know that they did so willingly with full knowledge and yet, if it had not been Allah's will, it would not have happened.

 

[FA_Q2]

The will of a man is subject to the will of Allah. This doesn't mean a man is compelled to do anything. For example, if someone slapped you on the face and said, "that was a divine decree", would you accept that as an excuse — i.e. that there was nothing they could do to prevent it? Of course not, you know and they know that they did so willingly with full knowledge and yet, if it had not been Allah's will, it would not have happened.

I would accept the former proposition because I reject the latter entirely so your analogy is meaningless and does not apply.

 

[Uranus]

I would accept the former proposition because I reject the latter entirely so your analogy is meaningless and does not apply.

What former and latter proposition?

 

[FA_Q2]

You claim it they did it. Sure. A valid claim.

You then claim it was Allah's will. I reject that claim ergo my assertion that it was the man that did it is valid. Your analogy fails because I have a perfectly sensible frame of reference to deny it was because Allah.

You, however, do not even if you will make the same conclusion. As I pointed out, Allah guides some and rejects others. That is absolutely counter to the idea of free will. IF something MUST be willed by Allah to happen then free will CANNOT exist, that is simply definitional. The religious claims from Islam simply ignore this but that does not make it go away for anyone willing to actually think about the two claims.

In order for me to have free will, I MUST be able to will something that Allah does not want me to will.

 

[there4eyeM]

You claim it they did it. Sure. A valid claim.

You then claim it was Allah's will. I reject that claim ergo my assertion that it was the man that did it is valid. Your analogy fails because I have a perfectly sensible frame of reference to deny it was because Allah.

You, however, do not even if you will make the same conclusion. As I pointed out, Allah guides some and rejects others. That is absolutely counter to the idea of free will. IF something MUST be willed by Allah to happen then free will CANNOT exist, that is simply definitional. The religious claims from Islam simply ignore this but that does not make it go away for anyone willing to actually think about the two claims.

In order for me to have free will, I MUST be able to will something that Allah does not want me to will.

This is the fundamental conundrum of religions; they teach with words about something that cannot be thus defined. They seek to limit the limitless. They do not understand how language works and they do not understand what a supreme being would have to be like. Probably the worst thing they do is insist that one believe through hearsay. As most people possess only modest intellectual abilities, the mass of "faithful" are thus merely puppets of obedience.

 

[Uranus]

You claim it they did it. Sure. A valid claim.

You then claim it was Allah's will. I reject that claim ergo my assertion that it was the man that did it is valid. Your analogy fails because I have a perfectly sensible frame of reference to deny it was because Allah.

You, however, do not even if you will make the same conclusion. As I pointed out, Allah guides some and rejects others. That is absolutely counter to the idea of free will. IF something MUST be willed by Allah to happen then free will CANNOT exist, that is simply definitional. The religious claims from Islam simply ignore this but that does not make it go away for anyone willing to actually think about the two claims.

In order for me to have free will, I MUST be able to will something that Allah does not want me to will.

You have no such free will. However, from a psychological perspective one can also argue that no one has a completely free will.

Do you feel like you're missing something though, because you'll still be responsible for your own deeds on the day of judgment?

At the end of the day, skipping all the jargon, free will is something we all experience for ourselves. Whether you would like to define it a bit differently or not is no concern of mine.

 

[FA_Q2]

It is at the very core of Islam that there is a freedom of choice.

You have no such free will.

Well then.

Islam defeated by one of its own in just 2 short message board pages.

 

[FA_Q2]

You have no such free will. However, from a psychological perspective one can also argue that no one has a completely free will.

Do you feel like you're missing something though, because you'll still be responsible for your own deeds on the day of judgment?

At the end of the day, skipping all the jargon, free will is something we all experience for ourselves. Whether you would like to define it a bit differently or not is no concern of mine.

The concern is that Allah apparently decides who does and does not believe.

That is what was pointed out. That is what you said was not correct. And now you are jumping right back off that train. IOW, your worldview and religion has 2 opposing views that are simply not compatible. And it is clear that you are aware of such a disconnect.

This is called doublethink.