On the Right: Fights among Ourselves

[Doug]

Someone on the thread about political diversity (or lack thereof) on the Left wanted examples of intra-Right conflicts. Assuming that Libertarians are counted as on the Right, here are links to debates between Conservatives and Libertarians.

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The Intercollegiate Studies Institute has published a collection of essays on this subject:[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Virtue-Conservative-Libertarian-Debate/dp/1882926196] Freedom and Virtue: The Conservative-Libertarian Debate[/ame]. George W Carey (ed).

An editorial review describes it as follows:

A helpful primer to the fundamental rift among right-wing intellectuals in the United States. Which is more important: personal liberty or society's maintenance of a transcendent moral order? During much of the cold war, libertarians and conservatives kept their differences hidden. When they came out in the open, it was often understood that mutual opposition to communism and the growth of the welfare state forced them to make common cause. With the collapse of the Soviet Union and the slowed growth of big government, however, the two camps are now regularly at each other's throats. This split represents an important difference in political philosophy, and Carey's wisely chosen articles nicely lay out the debate in terms all can understand. --John J. Miller

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Conservatives and Libertarians: Uneasy Cousins by Robert Nisbet (Modern Age, Winter, 1980) explores what the two sides have in common, and where they differ, looking at the historic intellectual roots of both traditions.
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Why there is a basis for an alliance between conservatism and libertarianism on issues of morality as well as on questions of economics, and why libertarianism is not, properly understood, a celebration of the flaunting of traditional morality, is argued clearly and forcefully in What Libertarianism Isn't by Professor Edward Feser. (21 December 2001) However, he later modified his views, becoming more pessimistic about the chances of such an alliance, in Hayek and Fusionism . (16 February 2007).)
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In Conservatives and Libertarianism (Modern Age, Winter 1980) Tibor Machan defends libertarianism from a philosophical point of view.
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Why We Are Conservatives by Donald Devine, of the American Conservative Union, 20 Jan 2000, lays out the foundations of conservatism which distinguish it from a mere love of liberty.
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The classic libertarian indictment of conservatism is here:<a href="http://www.liberalvalues.org.nz/index.php?...;article_id=246" target="_blank">
Why I am not a conservative</a> by FA Hayek, the final chapter of his book The Constitution of Liberty, 1960.
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In Libertarians under my Skin Jonah Goldberg tells some of his libertarian critics to "Grow Up Already" ( National Review Online (2 March 2001).
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In The violence of conservatism Jeffrey Tucker, at LewRockwell.com (21 August 2004) criticizes conservatives for their glorification of war, which he says belies their supposed opposition to the expansion of the state.
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Kay Hymowitz has penned another critique of libertarianism in Opinion Journal: Freedom Fetishists: The cultural contradictions of libertarianism.. (September 12, 2007)
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In the American Conservative, Robert Locke calls libertarianism the Marxism of the Right (14 March 2005).

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What liberals think about libertarians can be found in The Libertarian Conceit, in American Prospect magazine, a liberal attack on libertarianism by Jonathan Purdy, a Yale law student (30 November 2002).
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If you are still not satiated from reading the above, many more conservative critiques of libertarianism can be found in this splendid collection of links assembled by Mike Huben.
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[CharlestonChad]

Since when did we start counting libertarians as conservatives? Please think before you make any more threads.

 

[Doug]

Libertarians are not conservatives. That's why I used a term -- the Right --which subsumes them both. The whole point of the flipping thread is libertarians versus conservatives. Please read the post you are commenting about before making any more comments.

 

[CharlestonChad]

Libertarians are not conservatives. That's why I used a term -- the Right --which subsumes them both. The whole point of the flipping thread is libertarians versus conservatives. Please read the post you are commenting about before making any more comments.

Ok, since when are Libertarians considered on the right? They have beliefs that fall left AND right.

 

[Toro]

Ok, since when are Libertarians considered on the right? They have beliefs that fall left AND right.

So what?

Conservatives also have left and right beliefs, if you define the political spectrum through the use of government power.

Conservatives have no problem regulating your social life. That's a left-wing proposition if you believe liberty and freedom is right-wing.

 

[midcan5]

Differences between conservatives and libertarians:

Conservatives yes = tradition, hierarchy, nation, religion
Conservatives no = government/state, social welfare, change, humanism, secularism, fairness, equality

Libertarians yes = hierarchy, individualism, free market capitalism
Libertarians no = government/state, social welfare, community, fairness, equality

Biggest difference is conservatives are slightly less social darwinists than libertarians. Or at least they want you to believe that.

But you see the meeting points and you quickly understand why they get along.


Liberals yes = community, government/state, humanism, justice, fairness, equality
Liberals no = tradition, hierarchy, deism, corporatism

 

[William Joyce]

If only we actually had an operative policy battle between traditional conservatives and libertarians.

Unfortunately, neither amount to much today. The dominators of American domestic policy are liberals, with the possible exception of gun rights. The dominators of foreign policy are the neoconservatives, who are essentially Trotskyite Jews who dumped the Soviet Union when it started backing Arabs over Israel decades ago.

Conservatives, as noted, have given us limited gun rights. Libertarians have given us nothing.

Racial realist thoughts on why Russell Kirk's conservatism has little traction:

http://theoccidentalquarterly.com/archives/vol5no4/54-Wilson.pdf

 

[CharlestonChad]

Differences between conservatives and libertarians:

Conservatives yes = tradition, hierarchy, nation, religion
Conservatives no = government/state, social welfare, change, humanism, secularism, fairness, equality

Libertarians yes = hierarchy, individualism, free market capitalism
Libertarians no = government/state, social welfare, community, fairness, equality

Biggest difference is conservatives are slightly less social darwinists than libertarians. Or at least they want you to believe that.

But you see the meeting points and you quickly understand why they get along.


Liberals yes = community, government/state, humanism, justice, fairness, equality
Liberals no = tradition, hierarchy, deism, corporatism

Equal freedoms and individualism are of up most importance in libertarian beliefs. In your review of the three group's beliefs, you didn't account for the same beliefs in each review, ie: you are not comparing the same beliefs among the three. And you did not correctly associate each group with their correct beliefs, IMO.

I'll try to do this, so please edit what mistakes I'll make, b/c I know I'm going to make a few.
C-Cons
M-Libertarians
L-LIberals

Religion
C-Yes in private and majority in favor of it involved in gov.
M-Yes in private, against gov. involvement.
L-Yes in private, against gov. involvement.

Big Gov Spending
C-No, but neoconservativism is in favor of larger overall gov in foreign policy, but smaller in income distribution
M-No, 100% against
L-Yes, but smaller in foreign affairs and larger in income distribution

Capitalism
C-Yes, but favor corp. welfare is increasing trend
M-Yes, completely free market
L-No

Constitution Protection
C-No, pick and choose which parts to follow
M-Yes, basis of beliefs
L-No, pick and choose which to parts to follow

Individualism
C-Yes, against community
M-Yes
L-No, favor communal interactions and reliance

Equality and Fairness
C-No, favor those with money
M-Yes, equal rights
L-No, favor those without money


I'm not saying this to bash conservative christians, but does anyone else find it hypocritical to be against income distribution, welfare, and peaceful resolutions, yet call oneself a follower of a religion that is founded upon the opposite beliefs?

 

[Diuretic]

I'm not saying this to bash conservative christians, but does anyone else find it hypocritical to be against income distribution, welfare, and peaceful resolutions, yet call oneself a follower of a religion that is founded upon the opposite beliefs?

No doubt some will trot out scripture to justify it.

But I disgree with you no liberals and capitalism. Liberals aren't opposed to capitalism, some love it and wallow in it, some feel a bit guilty about the unequal distribution of wealth but they won't try hard to do anything about it, they'll just write about it. The Democratic Party is four square for capitalism and capitalism full strength. To find opposition to capitalism you can't look to the liberals, you have to look much further to the left.

 

[Doug]

Christ was in favor of Affirmative Action, Gay Marriage, Abortion Rights, Socialized Medicine, the Collective Ownership of the Means of Production and Distribution and a generous Welfare provision for those who do not wish to work?

You could have fooled me!

Of course, "trotting out" references to Scripture to refute this claim would obviously be invalid, and a sneaky conservative trick. We know the politically-liberal beliefs of Christ, not by references to the words Christ supposedly spoke, but in a much better way, which is ....

 

[Shogun]

are you telling me that the loaves and fishes fairy tale isn't a direct nod to socialism? Directly affirming that, indeed, he had an opinion on "Collective Ownership of the Means of Production and Distribution and a generous Welfare provision for those who do not wish to work"


After all, those who took his shit seriously COULD have brought their own damn fish and bread, right?


Abortion rights? giving that he's SUPPOSED to be the same guy who killed an entire generation of Egyptian first born?

Gay marriage? Judge not lest ye be judged for we all fall short of the glory of god?


Affirmative Action? Love thy neighbor?

SOCIALIZED MEDICINE? HA!

are you fucking kidding me? What was Jesus's profit margin for his healing services? Don't TELL ME he gave that shit away for free for the sake of humanity and love... How uncapitolist of him!

 

[Toro]

What was Jesus's profit margin for his healing services?

About 7% as I understand it.

 

[Diuretic]

Christ was in favor of Affirmative Action, Gay Marriage, Abortion Rights, Socialized Medicine, the Collective Ownership of the Means of Production and Distribution and a generous Welfare provision for those who do not wish to work?

You could have fooled me!

Of course, "trotting out" references to Scripture to refute this claim would obviously be invalid, and a sneaky conservative trick. We know the politically-liberal beliefs of Christ, not by references to the words Christ supposedly spoke, but in a much better way, which is ....

Which is why secular topics should be discussed in a secular manner. Using scripture to justify a political position - either way - is a fallacy.

 

[Diuretic]

are you telling me that the loaves and fishes fairy tale isn't a direct nod to socialism? Directly affirming that, indeed, he had an opinion on "Collective Ownership of the Means of Production and Distribution and a generous Welfare provision for those who do not wish to work"


After all, those who took his shit seriously COULD have brought their own damn fish and bread, right?


Abortion rights? giving that he's SUPPOSED to be the same guy who killed an entire generation of Egyptian first born?

Gay marriage? Judge not lest ye be judged for we all fall short of the glory of god?


Affirmative Action? Love thy neighbor?

SOCIALIZED MEDICINE? HA!

are you fucking kidding me? What was Jesus's profit margin for his healing services? Don't TELL ME he gave that shit away for free for the sake of humanity and love... How uncapitolist of him!

Given that when the gospels were written there wasn't even feudalism I'd think the authors weren't trying to condemn capitalism.

 

[Diuretic]

About 7% as I understand it.

No discounts for the unwaged?

 

[AllieBaba]

Which is why secular topics should be discussed in a secular manner. Using scripture to justify a political position - either way - is a fallacy.

You're right.