On Anti-Semitism...

[irosie91]

So what you are saying is that Jews deserve a special exemption to any full loyalty to any non-Jewish state...that is a different standard for all other citizens...

Ah, the chosen people thing.

Doc it was circa 1960 that the islamo nazi pigs circulated a GRAND LIBEL-----which reaches up to the goebbels level ----I was a child----but had a habit of reading anything that fell into my hands I remember it well The libel of the day was that the UNITED STATES HAD PASSED A SPECIAL LAW FOR THE BENEFIT OF JEWS ONLY THE ALLEGED NEW SPECIAL LAW----ALLOWED JEWS ONLY-----to have CITIZEN SHIP IN BOTH THE USA AND IN ISRAEL IN THE PEEBALLS READING MATERIAL JEWS WERE RENAMED "DUALIES" ISLAMO NAZI PIGS STILL EMPLOY THE MONIKER

consider the fact of fraud-----1960 ----that was close to the time that the "palestinians"
were invented. Have you ever noticed that those people who scream 'zog' and
"aipac" seem so COORDINATED in their MASSIVE FRAUDS?

 

[pbel]

So what you are saying is that Jews deserve a special exemption to any full loyalty to any non-Jewish state...that is a different standard for all other citizens...

Ah, the chosen people thing.

It has nothing to do with the "Chosen" thing, especialy religious beliefs. My concern is secular, and the complete seperation of Church and State. Japanese, German, Italian etc. Ethnic Americans fought the Fascists in WWII, and were drafted. What would happen in the future if Israel were to become our enemy?

You say never? Look at History and changing alliences.

 

[Lipush]

So what you are saying is that Jews deserve a special exemption to any full loyalty to any non-Jewish state...that is a different standard for all other citizens...

Fine, then that group should be non-Political in its host state and certainly be barred from any state position, including the military..

I am saying that American Jews should avoid actiones which harmes their brothers and sisters in Israel.

If you say that this position should prevent them being on politics and army, it will be fair only if yoo deny that same rights out of any other "ethnic" group which in your opinion can hold that same threat.

There are Jews in the American army, and in politics, which hold no danger. So I don't get your point.

What other ethnic groups swear allegience to a Foreign Power? American Citizenship requires allegience to America...period...Many in World WarII had to fight their Ethnic Brothers and gave their lives for America. Under your scenrio of no harm to Israel because of Ethnicity negates that right to total allegience to America...

That if America opens a war on Israel. Do you see it happening? I don't. So why are you bringing that up?

What other ethnic group wear allegience to a Foreign Power? hint, they're the offspring of Ishmael. Do you think that any American Muslim will prefer America over his homeland or the Qur'an? now you're truely amusing me, Pbel.

 

[Lipush]

So what you are saying is that Jews deserve a special exemption to any full loyalty to any non-Jewish state...that is a different standard for all other citizens...

Ah, the chosen people thing.

It has nothing to do with the "Chosen" thing, especialy religious beliefs. My concern is secular, and the complete seperation of Church and State. Japanese, German, Italian etc. Ethnic Americans fought the Fascists in WWII, and were drafted. What would happen in the future if Israel were to become our enemy?

You say never? Look at History and changing alliences.

In case you've misses, you live in a Christian society

 

[pbel]

Lpiush:In case you've misses, you live in a Christian society
__________________
I'm a Unitarian at best and I could give a squat about any Religion that trumps my loyalty to my neighbors and Society.

Religion is not required to be a good citizen, which by the way is for the 20% atheistic Jews who live in Israel.

 

[toomuchtime_]

So what you are saying is that Jews deserve a special exemption to any full loyalty to any non-Jewish state...that is a different standard for all other citizens...

Ah, the chosen people thing.

It has nothing to do with the "Chosen" thing, especialy religious beliefs. My concern is secular, and the complete seperation of Church and State. Japanese, German, Italian etc. Ethnic Americans fought the Fascists in WWII, and were drafted. What would happen in the future if Israel were to become our enemy?

You say never? Look at History and changing alliences.

lol You know how to type, history, but do you know any history? Which of America's closest allies has become an enemy in the past?

 

[Annie]

For better or worse, both sides; 2012 seems to break for conservatives for Israel, Democrats for Islam.

 

[pbel]

tomuch time: Which of America's closest allies has become an enemy in the past?
__________________
Russia, China, Pakistan, Israel in process, Iran, Most if not all the ME countries...

 

[Lipush]

Lpiush:In case you've misses, you live in a Christian society
__________________
I'm a Unitarian at best and I could give a squat about any Religion that trumps my loyalty to my neighbors and Society.

Religion is not required to be a good citizen, which by the way is for the 20% atheistic Jews who live in Israel.

I didn't say atheism is a bad thing, i say wake up and realize that you cannot go completely against religion since your society won't see it like a good thing

 

[toomuchtime_]

tomuch time: Which of America's closest allies has become an enemy in the past?
__________________
Russia, China, Pakistan, Israel in process, Iran, Most if not all the ME countries...

lol Neither Russia nor China nor Pakistan was ever a close US ally. The Shah's Iran was an US ally but the Ayatollahs' never was. What if, you might suggest, religious extremists in Israel were to stage a revolution and turn Israel into a theocracy hostile to the US as the ayatollahs have turned Iran into a US enemy. A bizarre notion, but no more so than your other ideas, but if it did happen, Jewish Americans would view this new Israeli government with horror since it would be so alien to their values, just as Iranian Americans view the current Iranian regime with horror.

 

[pbel]

tomuch time: Which of America's closest allies has become an enemy in the past?
__________________
Russia, China, Pakistan, Israel in process, Iran, Most if not all the ME countries...

lol Neither Russia nor China nor Pakistan was ever a close US ally. The Shah's Iran was an US ally but the Ayatollahs' never was. What if, you might suggest, religious extremists in Israel were to stage a revolution and turn Israel into a theocracy hostile to the US as the ayatollahs have turned Iran into a US enemy. A bizarre notion, but no more so than your other ideas, but if it did happen, Jewish Americans would view this new Israeli government with horror since it would be so alien to their values, just as Iranian Americans view the current Iranian regime with horror.

Besides laughing the usual Israeli propaganda commentary, can you provide any proof that Israel is any better ally...especially considering today's policy differences, the Pollard spying case, the Liberty and Lavon Affair...clearly Israel is a fluid ally, causing America huge headaches world-wide.

 

[MHunterB]

Irosie: (Hitler)

"he would never have accomplished so difficult a feat without the help of people of your ilk In fact he was very confident that he has enough support in the USA and in england to continue his program and he did His biggest obstacle was the brain drain-----all the jewish scientists either fled or died. Brain drain is a problem for your fascist heros of Iran too"

Irosie, the problem with many Jews on this board is seeing criticisms of Israeli policies as anti-Semitism, pure and simple.

My argument with American Jews is not a question of Ethnicity or Religion but one of Politics...Why should American Citizens be loyal to a foreign power? I mean my Uncles and Father fought the Fascists in their native Italy...

I understand the fear of the universal holocausts that have plagued Jews throughout history. That's why I support a peace to the renegotiated 67 borders, to allay that universal fear, perhaps a peace.

I really think Israel was re-created in a dangerous area. What is the alternative, waiting for War? I believe a peace will foster trade and acceptance, and relieve America’s constant war footing bankrupting us.

Its not about hate Rosie, I have never met A Jew I disliked. Its about American Patriotism...the land that has given this poor Sicilian immigrant many opportunities!

Americans should be loyal to America. American JEWS should combine their loyalty to both America and the Jewish people. They will always be Jews, even if they ARE americans. Since the American people are not enemies of the Israeli people, there should be no problem with that, and American Jews shuold not be forced to chose to whom they're more loyal. That is unless you force them into that position.
You support the peace of 67 border? and which "peace" will that be exactly?

We are at war, like we have always been. Israel is a war zone, but it's a HOME war zone. It's better than fight for your own home and be forever refugee between foreigners who hate you. The Jewish nation will forever be isolated, if fighting, better it is protecting yourself.

So what you are saying is that Jews deserve a special exemption to any full loyalty to any non-Jewish state...that is a different standard for all other citizens...

Fine, then that group should be non-Political in its host state and certainly be barred from any state position, including the military..

"Host State"???? You DO know, don't you - that the ONLY people who use that kind of language are the bigots, don't you?

I was, like my parents before me, born a CITIZEN of this country - no more and no less so than anyone whose family came here on the Mayflower.

There's no such thing as a 'host country'.
I truly wonder how much of an American you could be, Pbel, to despise the Constitution so?

For your benighted and idiotic information: the US can and DOES allow non-citizens to serve, and has for MANY decades.

It's almost amusing to see a person 'suggest' that the US Constitution should make specific exceptions to deny Jews their rights, as opposed to any other group.....

And you called ME 'a hate monger' for an earlier post in this thread - the one where I stated that I felt one's behavior reflected on oneself, not others.

Thank you for reinforcing my words so eloquently by engaging in a personal attack there.....

 

[MHunterB]

So what you are saying is that Jews deserve a special exemption to any full loyalty to any non-Jewish state...that is a different standard for all other citizens...

Ah, the chosen people thing.

Yup, another canard from the ol'bag O' tricks.....

 

[pbel]

Americans should be loyal to America. American JEWS should combine their loyalty to both America and the Jewish people. They will always be Jews, even if they ARE americans. Since the American people are not enemies of the Israeli people, there should be no problem with that, and American Jews shuold not be forced to chose to whom they're more loyal. That is unless you force them into that position.
You support the peace of 67 border? and which "peace" will that be exactly?

We are at war, like we have always been. Israel is a war zone, but it's a HOME war zone. It's better than fight for your own home and be forever refugee between foreigners who hate you. The Jewish nation will forever be isolated, if fighting, better it is protecting yourself.

So what you are saying is that Jews deserve a special exemption to any full loyalty to any non-Jewish state...that is a different standard for all other citizens...

Fine, then that group should be non-Political in its host state and certainly be barred from any state position, including the military..

"Host State"???? You DO know, don't you - that the ONLY people who use that kind of language are the bigots, don't you?

I was, like my parents before me, born a CITIZEN of this country - no more and no less so than anyone whose family came here on the Mayflower.

There's no such thing as a 'host country'.
I truly wonder how much of an American you could be, Pbel, to despise the Constitution so?

For your benighted and idiotic information: the US can and DOES allow non-citizens to serve, and has for MANY decades.
It's almost amusing to see a person 'suggest' that the US Constitution should make specific exceptions to deny Jews their rights, as opposed to any other group.....

And you called ME 'a hate monger' for an earlier post in this thread - the one where I stated that I felt one's behavior reflected on oneself, not others.

Thank you for reinforcing my words so eloquently by engaging in a personal attack there.....

Citizen or not allegience is sworn to the USA and its Constitution. There is no exception to the Law that Lipush or you push that Dual Loyaty is OK and Moral. No-one here or me ever said Jews should be denied their rights...What I say is simple: No man can have two Masters.

 

[MHunterB]

So what you are saying is that Jews deserve a special exemption to any full loyalty to any non-Jewish state...that is a different standard for all other citizens...

Ah, the chosen people thing.

It has nothing to do with the "Chosen" thing, especialy religious beliefs. My concern is secular, and the complete seperation of Church and State. Japanese, German, Italian etc. Ethnic Americans fought the Fascists in WWII, and were drafted. What would happen in the future if Israel were to become our enemy?

You say never? Look at History and changing alliences.

That isn't in the realm of 'church/State' separation.

As to the 'what if', it'd probably be like any other time we (the US) were in a war: SOME people of that ethnicity would work *for* the US to the extent of enlisting in the military - and a few, likely a VERY few! - would work against the US. A lot of the group would feel conflicted.

Historically, what the US DID do, was to essentially confiscate property and intern the 'minority' - while encouraging their sons to enlist. Those sons were in THE most decorated large unit of all in WW2.

Of course the Bundists were left at large, to continue to hold their meetings in NJ and NY.....

The difference appears to have been RACIAL: since the Bundists were white and (LOL!) 'Christian', they were never interned en masse.....

I suppose it would depend on whether the 'Powers that be' considered us Jews as 'white', or not.

But while it's hypothetical, it remains irrelevant. The US already has laws in place to protect itself. A given individual may think or wish anything: the laws are about what one chooses to DO.

 

[MHunterB]

"Citizen or not allegience is sworn to the USA and its Constitution. There is no exception to the Law that Lipush or you push that Dual Loyaty is OK and Moral. No-one here or me ever said Jews should be denied their rights...What I say is simple: No man can have two Masters."

Well, this is amusing - why would anyone quote the NT in a debate about US Law?

Neither Lipush nor I are 'pushing for an exception'. Nor did either of us say that 'dual loyalty is OK and moral'. So how about you deal with what we have actually said, which was essentially that Jews are no less capable of being patriotic and dedicated citizens of the US by virtue of being Jewish.

As I said before: the US has sufficient laws in place to protect its citizens in case of wartime treason.

 

[toomuchtime_]

tomuch time: Which of America's closest allies has become an enemy in the past?
__________________
Russia, China, Pakistan, Israel in process, Iran, Most if not all the ME countries...

lol Neither Russia nor China nor Pakistan was ever a close US ally. The Shah's Iran was an US ally but the Ayatollahs' never was. What if, you might suggest, religious extremists in Israel were to stage a revolution and turn Israel into a theocracy hostile to the US as the ayatollahs have turned Iran into a US enemy. A bizarre notion, but no more so than your other ideas, but if it did happen, Jewish Americans would view this new Israeli government with horror since it would be so alien to their values, just as Iranian Americans view the current Iranian regime with horror.

Besides laughing the usual Israeli propaganda commentary, can you provide any proof that Israel is any better ally...especially considering today's policy differences, the Pollard spying case, the Liberty and Lavon Affair...clearly Israel is a fluid ally, causing America huge headaches world-wide.

Israel has long been America's most important strategic ally, and America's perceived influence over Israeli policy provides the foundation of America's influence and prestige among Arab countries. At a time when the US seemed to be losing the Cold War almost everywhere, the Israeli victories in 1967 and 1973 without any US help or support over Soviet proxies, Egypt and Syria, drove the Soviets out of the ME and the US brokered peace treaty between Egypt and Israel has kept them out.

That the US has long considered its alliance with Israel to be essential to its ME interests can be seen from the events that followed the Israeli request for the US to replace losses it was suffering during the 1973 war. Initially, the US decided not to grant the request because it was confident Israel would win the war without any US assistance and resupplying Israel might offend the Arab states, but the cabinet was persuaded to grant the request by the argument that if the US refused, it would have less influence over Israel after the war and if it had less influence over Israel, already the dominant power in the ME, it would have less influence over the Arab states.

America's influence and prestige in the ME, even after the war in Iraq, still depends to a large extent on the perception of US influence over Israeli policy.

 

[irosie91]

the lavon affair--------the poor man is DESPERATE

 

[SAYIT]

tomuch time: Which of America's closest allies has become an enemy in the past?
__________________
Russia, China, Pakistan, Israel in process, Iran, Most if not all the ME countries...

lol Neither Russia nor China nor Pakistan was ever a close US ally. The Shah's Iran was an US ally but the Ayatollahs' never was. What if, you might suggest, religious extremists in Israel were to stage a revolution and turn Israel into a theocracy hostile to the US as the ayatollahs have turned Iran into a US enemy. A bizarre notion, but no more so than your other ideas, but if it did happen, Jewish Americans would view this new Israeli government with horror since it would be so alien to their values, just as Iranian Americans view the current Iranian regime with horror.

Besides laughing the usual Israeli propaganda commentary, can you provide any proof that Israel is any better ally...especially considering today's policy differences, the Pollard spying case, the Liberty and Lavon Affair...clearly Israel is a fluid ally, causing America huge headaches world-wide.

Today's policy differences? Pollard [1985] spy case? Liberty [1967] and Lavon [1954] affairs?
Providing you (once again) of how real policy wonks perceive the special relationship and Israel's value to us would be, as always, a total waste of time.
You aren't literate enough to read it and not bright enough to understand it.
I've even posted proof of the value of that alliance from an anti-Israel but intellectually honest scholar, Stephen Zunes, but since it doesn't serve your mindless hate, you simply dismiss it.
As always, you are a raging idiot.

 

[SAYIT]

Americans should be loyal to America. American JEWS should combine their loyalty to both America and the Jewish people. They will always be Jews, even if they ARE americans. Since the American people are not enemies of the Israeli people, there should be no problem with that, and American Jews shuold not be forced to chose to whom they're more loyal. That is unless you force them into that position.
You support the peace of 67 border? and which "peace" will that be exactly?

We are at war, like we have always been. Israel is a war zone, but it's a HOME war zone. It's better than fight for your own home and be forever refugee between foreigners who hate you. The Jewish nation will forever be isolated, if fighting, better it is protecting yourself.

So what you are saying is that Jews deserve a special exemption to any full loyalty to any non-Jewish state...that is a different standard for all other citizens...

Fine, then that group should be non-Political in its host state and certainly be barred from any state position, including the military..

"Host State"???? You DO know, don't you - that the ONLY people who use that kind of language are the bigots, don't you?

I was, like my parents before me, born a CITIZEN of this country - no more and no less so than anyone whose family came here on the Mayflower.

There's no such thing as a 'host country'.
I truly wonder how much of an American you could be, Pbel, to despise the Constitution so?

For your benighted and idiotic information: the US can and DOES allow non-citizens to serve, and has for MANY decades.

It's almost amusing to see a person 'suggest' that the US Constitution should make specific exceptions to deny Jews their rights, as opposed to any other group.....

And you called ME 'a hate monger' for an earlier post in this thread - the one where I stated that I felt one's behavior reflected on oneself, not others.

Thank you for reinforcing my words so eloquently by engaging in a personal attack there.....

PBrain was not born American ... he continues to live beneath the rock he was born under.
He should consider himself fortunate that America opened her doors to him.