Ocean acidifying at unprecedented rate

[bripat9643]

your state open for accepting the waste?

Unfortunately my state is as full of loons like you as any other state. Your ilk are the only thing preventing nuclear waste from being disposed of.

Disposed of? Don't you mean "interred" or "placed in long term storage"?

You're quibbling about semantics.

 

[Abraham3]

What I added was in the lead post and covered research which found that the current rate of acidification was unprecedented in 300 million years. I haven't seen anyone address that particular point. All I've seen is folks trying to tell us that ocean acidification is harmless. In response to that I quoted a chunk of Wikipedia's article on the topic including a fairly extensive list of peer reviewed journal articles showing that it is NOT harmless. Like most mainstream scientific evidence, you all rejected all of that out of hand.

That claim is obviously specious because science has no way to measure changes in ocean PH that occur over intervals as short as 50 years.

Where did you get this idea?

 

[Missourian]

The situation is already irretrievable.

Not this ignorant crap again.. We've had this discussion.. Let's test your memory..
Current change of pH is roughly from 8.2 (pre-industrial) to 8.1 today.. That does yield (in a very dishonest way) a 30% more acidic number.. HOWEVER -- lets' compare pre-industrial 8.2 to the pH of PURE FRESH GLACIAL WATER at 7.0..

8.2 - 7.0 = 1.2 and (10^1.2) - 1 = (about) 1400% So PURE glacial melt water is 1400% MORE ACIDIC than preindustrial seawater..

NOBODY in science linearizes that LOG relationship unless they are trying to lie about something.. Go wring your hands and cry with GoldiRocks somewhere not so public..

The thread should have ended right here.

 

[Abraham3]

Wrong.

 

[westwall]

Wrong.

Yes, you are wrong. All the time. You trot out these simplified diagrams and simple papers describing something that is far too complex. Then your hero's make these claims that the level of acidification is higher than recorded history, hell they claim it's the highest rate of change in 300,000,000 years! Which is a laughable assertion as it is completely impossible to verify that statement.

No, Ian is correct, your hero's have done so much damage to science in general that I truly fear when something really does come up the people will point to you idiots and say, "nope, after listening to these idiots for 30 years we're NOT going to get taken for a ride like that again."

You clowns have royally screwed the pooch.

 

[Abraham3]

From the link in Post #1

Summary of outcomes

During the last 20 years, it has been established that the pH of the world’s oceans is decreasing as a result of anthropogenic CO2 emissions to the atmosphere.

The Third Symposium on the Ocean in a High-CO2 World built on this knowledge.

o The ocean continues to acidify at an unprecedented rate in Earth’s history. Latest research indicates the rate of change may be faster than at any time in the last 300 million years.

o As ocean acidity increases, its capacity to absorb CO2 from the atmosphere decreases. This decreases the ocean’s role in moderating climate change.

o Species-specific impacts of ocean acidification have been seen in laboratory and field studies on organisms from the poles to the tropics.

o Many organisms show adverse effects, such as reduced ability to form and maintain shells and skeletons, as well as reduced survival, growth, abundance and larval development. Conversely, evidence indicates that some organisms tolerate ocean acidification and that others, such as some seagrasses, may even thrive.

o Within decades, large parts of the polar oceans will become corrosive to the unprotected shells of calcareous marine organisms.

o Changes in carbonate chemistry of the tropical ocean may hamper or prevent coral reef growth within decades.

o The far-reaching effects of ocean acidification are predicted to impact food webs, biodiversity, aquaculture and hence societies.

o Species differ in their potential to adapt to new environments. Ocean chemistry may be changing too rapidly for many species or populations to adapt through evolution.

o Multiple stressors – ocean acidification, warming, decreases in oceanic oxygen concentrations (deoxygenation), increasing UV-B irradiance due to stratospheric ozone depletion, overfishing, pollution and eutrophication – and their interactions are creating significant challenges for ocean ecosystems.

o We do not fully understand the biogeochemical feedbacks to the climate system that may arise from ocean acidification.

o Predicting how whole ecosystems will change in response to rising CO2 levels remains challenging. While we know enough to expect changes in marine ecosystems and biodiversity within our lifetimes, we are unable to make reliable, quantitative predictions of socio-economic impacts.

o People who rely on the ocean’s ecosystem services are especially vulnerable and may need to adapt or cope with ocean acidification impacts within decades. Shellfish fisheries and aquaculture in some areas may be able to cope by adjusting their management practices to avoid ocean acidification impacts. Tropical coral reef loss will affect tourism, food security and shoreline protection for many of the world’s poorest people.

 

[Abraham3]

The ocean is acidifying more rapidly than it has in millions of years [HIGH CONFIDENCE]

Today’s human-induced acidification is a unique event in the geological history of our planet due to its rapid rate of change. An analysis of ocean acidification over the last 300 million years highlights the unprecedented rate of change of the current acidification31. The most comparable event 55 million years ago was linked to mass extinctions of calcareous deep-sea organisms and significant changes to the surface ocean ecosystem31. At that time, though the rate of change of ocean pH was rapid, it may have been 10 times slower than current change32.

31> Hönisch, B., Ridgwell, A., Schmidt, D.N., Thomas, E., Gibbs, S.J., Sluijs, A., Zeebe, R., Martindale, R.C., Greene, S.E., Kiessling, W., Ries, J., Zachos, J.C., Royer, D.L., Barker, S., Marchitto Jr., T.M., Moyer, R., Pelejero, C., Ziveri, P., Foster, G.L., Williams, B., 2012. The geological record of ocean acidification. Science 335(6072):1058–1063, doi:10.1126/science.1208277.

32> Ridgwell, A., Schmidt, D.N., 2010. Past constraints on the vulnerability of marine calcifiers to massive carbon dioxide release. Nature Geoscience 3:196–200, doi:10.1038/ngeo755

 

[Abraham3]

The Geological Record of Ocean Acidification
Bärbel Hönisch1,*, Andy Ridgwell2, Daniela N. Schmidt3, Ellen Thomas4,5, Samantha J. Gibbs6, Appy Sluijs7, Richard Zeebe8, Lee Kump9, Rowan C. Martindale10, Sarah E. Greene2,10, Wolfgang Kiessling11, Justin Ries12, James C. Zachos13, Dana L. Royer5, Stephen Barker14, Thomas M. Marchitto Jr.15, Ryan Moyer16, Carles Pelejero17, Patrizia Ziveri18,19, Gavin L. Foster6, Branwen Williams20

ABSTRACT
Ocean acidification may have severe consequences for marine ecosystems; however, assessing its future impact is difficult because laboratory experiments and field observations are limited by their reduced ecologic complexity and sample period, respectively. In contrast, the geological record contains long-term evidence for a variety of global environmental perturbations, including ocean acidification plus their associated biotic responses. We review events exhibiting evidence for elevated atmospheric CO2, global warming, and ocean acidification over the past ~300 million years of Earth’s history, some with contemporaneous extinction or evolutionary turnover among marine calcifiers. Although similarities exist, no past event perfectly parallels future projections in terms of disrupting the balance of ocean carbonate chemistry—a consequence of the unprecedented rapidity of CO2 release currently taking place. [emphasis mine]

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/335/6072/1058.abstract

THIS ARTICLE HAS BEEN CITED BY OTHER ARTICLES:

Analysis of periodicity of extinction using the 2012 geological timescale
Paleobiology 1 March 2014: 177-196.

High-resolution {delta}13C stratigraphy through the Selli Oceanic Anoxic Event (OAE1a) in the Apulia carbonate platform: the Borgo Celano section (western Gargano Promontory, Southern Italy)
Ital J Geosci 1 October 2013: 477-496.

Evidence for a rapid release of carbon at the Paleocene-Eocene thermal maximum
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 1 October 2013: 15908-15913.

Warm climates of the past--a lesson for the future?
Phil Trans R Soc A 16 September 2013: 20130146.

Long-term legacy of massive carbon input to the Earth system: Anthropocene versus Eocene
Phil Trans R Soc A 16 September 2013: 20120006.

Seawater chemistry driven by supercontinent assembly, breakup, and dispersal
Geology 1 August 2013: 907-910.

Coral reef calcification: carbonate, bicarbonate and proton flux under conditions of increasing ocean acidification
Proc R Soc B 12 June 2013: 20130031.

Surviving rapid climate change in the deep sea during the Paleogene hyperthermals
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 4 June 2013: 9273-9276.

Zircon U-Pb Geochronology Links the End-Triassic Extinction with the Central Atlantic Magmatic Province
Science 24 May 2013: 941-945.

Ocean acidification alters the otoliths of a pantropical fish species with implications for sensory function
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 30 April 2013: 7366-7370.

Evolutionary change during experimental ocean acidification
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 23 April 2013: 6937-6942.

Section 3. Introduction to the Geochemical Evolution of the Earth's Ecosphere
Geochemical Perspectives 1 April 2013: 24-27.

Systems paleobiology
Geological Society of America Bulletin 1 January 2013: 3-13.

Equatorial decline of reef corals during the last Pleistocene interglacial
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 26 December 2012: 21378-21383.

A subseafloor carbonate factory across the Triassic-Jurassic transition
Geology 1 November 2012: 1043-1046.

MACROFAUNAL RESPONSE TO THE END-TRIASSIC MASS EXTINCTION IN THE WEST-TETHYAN KOSSEN BASIN, AUSTRIA
PALAIOS 4 October 2012: 607-616.

 

[flacaltenn]

your state open for accepting the waste?

Unfortunately my state is as full of loons like you as any other state. Your ilk are the only thing preventing nuclear waste from being disposed of.

Disposed of? Don't you mean "interred" or "placed in long term storage"?

We don't "dispose" of heavy metals like lithium or mercury or cadmium either.. Those wastes have "half-life toxicities" of FOREVER.. But they are all over your local landfill..

 

[westwall]

The Geological Record of Ocean Acidification
Bärbel Hönisch1,*, Andy Ridgwell2, Daniela N. Schmidt3, Ellen Thomas4,5, Samantha J. Gibbs6, Appy Sluijs7, Richard Zeebe8, Lee Kump9, Rowan C. Martindale10, Sarah E. Greene2,10, Wolfgang Kiessling11, Justin Ries12, James C. Zachos13, Dana L. Royer5, Stephen Barker14, Thomas M. Marchitto Jr.15, Ryan Moyer16, Carles Pelejero17, Patrizia Ziveri18,19, Gavin L. Foster6, Branwen Williams20

ABSTRACT
Ocean acidification may have severe consequences for marine ecosystems; however, assessing its future impact is difficult because laboratory experiments and field observations are limited by their reduced ecologic complexity and sample period, respectively. In contrast, the geological record contains long-term evidence for a variety of global environmental perturbations, including ocean acidification plus their associated biotic responses. We review events exhibiting evidence for elevated atmospheric CO2, global warming, and ocean acidification over the past ~300 million years of Earth’s history, some with contemporaneous extinction or evolutionary turnover among marine calcifiers. Although similarities exist, no past event perfectly parallels future projections in terms of disrupting the balance of ocean carbonate chemistry—a consequence of the unprecedented rapidity of CO2 release currently taking place. [emphasis mine]

The Geological Record of Ocean Acidification

THIS ARTICLE HAS BEEN CITED BY OTHER ARTICLES:

Analysis of periodicity of extinction using the 2012 geological timescale
Paleobiology 1 March 2014: 177-196.

High-resolution {delta}13C stratigraphy through the Selli Oceanic Anoxic Event (OAE1a) in the Apulia carbonate platform: the Borgo Celano section (western Gargano Promontory, Southern Italy)
Ital J Geosci 1 October 2013: 477-496.

Evidence for a rapid release of carbon at the Paleocene-Eocene thermal maximum
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 1 October 2013: 15908-15913.

Warm climates of the past--a lesson for the future?
Phil Trans R Soc A 16 September 2013: 20130146.

Long-term legacy of massive carbon input to the Earth system: Anthropocene versus Eocene
Phil Trans R Soc A 16 September 2013: 20120006.

Seawater chemistry driven by supercontinent assembly, breakup, and dispersal
Geology 1 August 2013: 907-910.

Coral reef calcification: carbonate, bicarbonate and proton flux under conditions of increasing ocean acidification
Proc R Soc B 12 June 2013: 20130031.

Surviving rapid climate change in the deep sea during the Paleogene hyperthermals
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 4 June 2013: 9273-9276.

Zircon U-Pb Geochronology Links the End-Triassic Extinction with the Central Atlantic Magmatic Province
Science 24 May 2013: 941-945.

Ocean acidification alters the otoliths of a pantropical fish species with implications for sensory function
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 30 April 2013: 7366-7370.

Evolutionary change during experimental ocean acidification
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 23 April 2013: 6937-6942.

Section 3. Introduction to the Geochemical Evolution of the Earth's Ecosphere
Geochemical Perspectives 1 April 2013: 24-27.

Systems paleobiology
Geological Society of America Bulletin 1 January 2013: 3-13.

Equatorial decline of reef corals during the last Pleistocene interglacial
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 26 December 2012: 21378-21383.

A subseafloor carbonate factory across the Triassic-Jurassic transition
Geology 1 November 2012: 1043-1046.

MACROFAUNAL RESPONSE TO THE END-TRIASSIC MASS EXTINCTION IN THE WEST-TETHYAN KOSSEN BASIN, AUSTRIA
PALAIOS 4 October 2012: 607-616.

I'm beginning to think that ole abe here is an o'fraud sock. He posts the same way as when o'fraud gets upset. You know three posts of dubious quality.....

 

[Samson]

They say the rate of change may be faster than at any time in the last 300 million years, predicting that by 2100 there will have been a 170% increase in ocean acidity, compared to pre-industrial times.

http://igbp.sv.internetborder.se/download/18.30566fc6142425d6c91140a/1384420272253/OA_spm2-FULL-lorez.pdf

Come... tell us about that oyster farm again.

I'd rather hear you describe how Ocean pH was measured before the industrial revolution.

 

[flacaltenn]

The Geological Record of Ocean Acidification
Bärbel Hönisch1,*, Andy Ridgwell2, Daniela N. Schmidt3, Ellen Thomas4,5, Samantha J. Gibbs6, Appy Sluijs7, Richard Zeebe8, Lee Kump9, Rowan C. Martindale10, Sarah E. Greene2,10, Wolfgang Kiessling11, Justin Ries12, James C. Zachos13, Dana L. Royer5, Stephen Barker14, Thomas M. Marchitto Jr.15, Ryan Moyer16, Carles Pelejero17, Patrizia Ziveri18,19, Gavin L. Foster6, Branwen Williams20

ABSTRACT
Ocean acidification may have severe consequences for marine ecosystems; however, assessing its future impact is difficult because laboratory experiments and field observations are limited by their reduced ecologic complexity and sample period, respectively. In contrast, the geological record contains long-term evidence for a variety of global environmental perturbations, including ocean acidification plus their associated biotic responses. We review events exhibiting evidence for elevated atmospheric CO2, global warming, and ocean acidification over the past ~300 million years of Earth’s history, some with contemporaneous extinction or evolutionary turnover among marine calcifiers. Although similarities exist, no past event perfectly parallels future projections in terms of disrupting the balance of ocean carbonate chemistry—a consequence of the unprecedented rapidity of CO2 release currently taking place. [emphasis mine]

The Geological Record of Ocean Acidification

Full of admissions of lack of ACCURATE assessment. Basically a good description of why you can't make the claim to a higher rate of acidification than ever before.. I've read the first and last pages and SAW NOTHING that would suggest PALEO evidence of rates of acidification could EVER be sensitive enough or have the TEMPORAL RESOLUTION to compare to the 0.1 change in pH that we've seen in the modern era..

This is a paper outlining the DIFFICULTIES of making Paleo studies on Ocean pH...

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Abraham tell them about the oysters

Sent from smartphone using my wits and Taptalk

 

[Abraham3]

Unfortunately my state is as full of loons like you as any other state. Your ilk are the only thing preventing nuclear waste from being disposed of.

Disposed of? Don't you mean "interred" or "placed in long term storage"?

We don't "dispose" of heavy metals like lithium or mercury or cadmium either.. Those wastes have "half-life toxicities" of FOREVER.. But they are all over your local landfill..

Keep in mind that I'm a nuke power advocate. I was attempting to correct the impression readers might have gotten from the use of the word "disposed" to mean that it was destroyed or in some manner made benign and harmless.

 

[flacaltenn]

Abraham tell them about the oysters

Sent from smartphone using my wits and Taptalk

Nice work Frank... You're encouraging him...

 

[Abraham3]

I'd rather hear you describe how Ocean pH was measured before the industrial revolution.

My first guess would be calcareous marine sediments.

 

[Abraham3]

The Geological Record of Ocean Acidification
Bärbel Hönisch1,*, Andy Ridgwell2, Daniela N. Schmidt3, Ellen Thomas4,5, Samantha J. Gibbs6, Appy Sluijs7, Richard Zeebe8, Lee Kump9, Rowan C. Martindale10, Sarah E. Greene2,10, Wolfgang Kiessling11, Justin Ries12, James C. Zachos13, Dana L. Royer5, Stephen Barker14, Thomas M. Marchitto Jr.15, Ryan Moyer16, Carles Pelejero17, Patrizia Ziveri18,19, Gavin L. Foster6, Branwen Williams20

ABSTRACT
Ocean acidification may have severe consequences for marine ecosystems; however, assessing its future impact is difficult because laboratory experiments and field observations are limited by their reduced ecologic complexity and sample period, respectively. In contrast, the geological record contains long-term evidence for a variety of global environmental perturbations, including ocean acidification plus their associated biotic responses. We review events exhibiting evidence for elevated atmospheric CO2, global warming, and ocean acidification over the past ~300 million years of Earth’s history, some with contemporaneous extinction or evolutionary turnover among marine calcifiers. Although similarities exist, no past event perfectly parallels future projections in terms of disrupting the balance of ocean carbonate chemistry—a consequence of the unprecedented rapidity of CO2 release currently taking place. [emphasis mine]

The Geological Record of Ocean Acidification

Full of admissions of lack of ACCURATE assessment. Basically a good description of why you can't make the claim to a higher rate of acidification than ever before.. I've read the first and last pages and SAW NOTHING that would suggest PALEO evidence of rates of acidification could EVER be sensitive enough or have the TEMPORAL RESOLUTION to compare to the 0.1 change in pH that we've seen in the modern era..

This is a paper outlining the DIFFICULTIES of making Paleo studies on Ocean pH...

You have a subscription to Science? Why don't you read the entire article and paraphrase it for us?

I assume you know why I listed all the citations that article had collected.

ps: if that long list of PhD authors say there's no parallel in 300 million years, I'm gonna take their word over yours.

 

[Abraham3]

Abraham tell them about the oysters

Sent from smartphone using my wits and Taptalk

Nice work Frank... You're encouraging him...

No need to worry. Frank has been on my ignore list for a great long while. If you hadn't quoted him, I'd have had no idea what he'd said. But now that you have...

 

[Abraham3]

The Geological Record of Ocean Acidification
Bärbel Hönisch1,*, Andy Ridgwell2, Daniela N. Schmidt3, Ellen Thomas4,5, Samantha J. Gibbs6, Appy Sluijs7, Richard Zeebe8, Lee Kump9, Rowan C. Martindale10, Sarah E. Greene2,10, Wolfgang Kiessling11, Justin Ries12, James C. Zachos13, Dana L. Royer5, Stephen Barker14, Thomas M. Marchitto Jr.15, Ryan Moyer16, Carles Pelejero17, Patrizia Ziveri18,19, Gavin L. Foster6, Branwen Williams20

ABSTRACT
Ocean acidification may have severe consequences for marine ecosystems; however, assessing its future impact is difficult because laboratory experiments and field observations are limited by their reduced ecologic complexity and sample period, respectively. In contrast, the geological record contains long-term evidence for a variety of global environmental perturbations, including ocean acidification plus their associated biotic responses. We review events exhibiting evidence for elevated atmospheric CO2, global warming, and ocean acidification over the past ~300 million years of Earth’s history, some with contemporaneous extinction or evolutionary turnover among marine calcifiers. Although similarities exist, no past event perfectly parallels future projections in terms of disrupting the balance of ocean carbonate chemistry—a consequence of the unprecedented rapidity of CO2 release currently taking place. [emphasis mine]

The Geological Record of Ocean Acidification

THIS ARTICLE HAS BEEN CITED BY OTHER ARTICLES:

Analysis of periodicity of extinction using the 2012 geological timescale
Paleobiology 1 March 2014: 177-196.

High-resolution {delta}13C stratigraphy through the Selli Oceanic Anoxic Event (OAE1a) in the Apulia carbonate platform: the Borgo Celano section (western Gargano Promontory, Southern Italy)
Ital J Geosci 1 October 2013: 477-496.

Evidence for a rapid release of carbon at the Paleocene-Eocene thermal maximum
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 1 October 2013: 15908-15913.

Warm climates of the past--a lesson for the future?
Phil Trans R Soc A 16 September 2013: 20130146.

Long-term legacy of massive carbon input to the Earth system: Anthropocene versus Eocene
Phil Trans R Soc A 16 September 2013: 20120006.

Seawater chemistry driven by supercontinent assembly, breakup, and dispersal
Geology 1 August 2013: 907-910.

Coral reef calcification: carbonate, bicarbonate and proton flux under conditions of increasing ocean acidification
Proc R Soc B 12 June 2013: 20130031.

Surviving rapid climate change in the deep sea during the Paleogene hyperthermals
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 4 June 2013: 9273-9276.

Zircon U-Pb Geochronology Links the End-Triassic Extinction with the Central Atlantic Magmatic Province
Science 24 May 2013: 941-945.

Ocean acidification alters the otoliths of a pantropical fish species with implications for sensory function
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 30 April 2013: 7366-7370.

Evolutionary change during experimental ocean acidification
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 23 April 2013: 6937-6942.

Section 3. Introduction to the Geochemical Evolution of the Earth's Ecosphere
Geochemical Perspectives 1 April 2013: 24-27.

Systems paleobiology
Geological Society of America Bulletin 1 January 2013: 3-13.

Equatorial decline of reef corals during the last Pleistocene interglacial
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 26 December 2012: 21378-21383.

A subseafloor carbonate factory across the Triassic-Jurassic transition
Geology 1 November 2012: 1043-1046.

MACROFAUNAL RESPONSE TO THE END-TRIASSIC MASS EXTINCTION IN THE WEST-TETHYAN KOSSEN BASIN, AUSTRIA
PALAIOS 4 October 2012: 607-616.

I'm beginning to think that ole abe here is an o'fraud sock. He posts the same way as when o'fraud gets upset. You know three posts of dubious quality.....

First, you claim to be a moderator yet you accuse me (and many others in the past) of being a sockpuppet. Doing so is a specific violation of USMB rules. The choices here are limited:

1) You are getting away with this because you are NOT a moderator and are thus a liar.
2) You are getting away with this because you ARE a moderator and are thus an unprincipled ass.

So you think this reference, authored by 21 individuals, published in the American Academy of Science's magazine "Science" and cited by at least fifteen other papers was of "dubious quality".

God are you stupid.

 

[mamooth]

Current change of pH is roughly from 8.2 (pre-industrial) to 8.1 today.. That does yield (in a very dishonest way) a 30% more acidic number.. HOWEVER -- lets' compare pre-industrial 8.2 to the pH of PURE FRESH GLACIAL WATER at 7.0..

8.2 - 7.0 = 1.2 and (10^1.2) - 1 = (about) 1400% So PURE glacial melt water is 1400% MORE ACIDIC than preindustrial seawater..

NOBODY in science linearizes that LOG relationship unless they are trying to lie about something.. Go wring your hands and cry with GoldiRocks somewhere not so public..

The thread should have ended right here.

Because someone thought it was sensible to compare pure water with a buffered seawater system? I agree. A person would have to be very ignorant of chemistry to think the comparison made any sense at all.

Seriously, what do the crazy folk hope to accomplish with all the shrieking that the science is a vast socialist conspiracy? Doing that just makes them look even more like cult loons. It must suck to be a denier, always having the whole world laughing at you, with absolutely no hope that the laughter will ever stop. They must be very loyal to their cult, to be willing to accept such mockery.