Occupied Childhoods. Newly released report on violation of children’s rights inHebron

[Phoenall]

The Palestinian massacre of the Jews in Hebron in 1928 was the first doumented massacre in the Jewish city even before the re-establishment of Israel in 1948.



QUOTE=Coyote;8485525]

OUTSTANDING SUBJECT. Yes indeed let everyone know about human rights violations in Hebron. Even the mass murder of innocent children.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wireki/1929_Hebron_massac

What does an event that took place in 1929 - 85 years ago - have to do with this?

Those attacked were Europeans. Even the indigenous Jews hated them.[/QUOTE]



LINK from an unbiased source ?

 

[dreolin]

The Palestinian massacre of the Jews in Hebron in 1928 was the first doumented massacre in the Jewish city even before the re-establishment of Israel in 1948.

I still can't figure out what this has to do with this thread?

Just to point out a basic fact: humanity, as a species, has been jubulantly and righteously massacring each other since it picked up the first stone. Don't see how this relates to the discussion on human rights violations of incarcerated children today.

That palestnians have been violating the rights of jews in Hebron and now use their kids as weapons against the Israelis?
That human rights are not observed by some palestinians.
You can't apply western standards to the middle east, things are very different. To hold Israel to the standards of peaceful western nations under the circumstances is not right.
Israel will do what it most for it's security. Considering the value of life by some palestinian groups, Israel has to take stronger measures as a precaution. Israel goes to extreme measures to minimize death or damage when possible, but in a war nothing is absolutely safe. Israel will attack what it must, but it is one of the best as pinpoint targeting, it has had to be.

I wish I could say that that is a unique justification for Israelis abusing Palestinian children, but it is about par for the course.

Yeah, Israel really exhibits its strength by putting children in cages in the rain.

Yeah, Israel is excellent at pinpointing targets, ask the Samouni family, And Captain R, oh, Major R... after the trial he was promoted, who emptied a clip into Iman Al-Hams as she lay dying in the dirt after being wounded by another pinpoint Israeli round.

Hell, there are dead kids littering the streets and countryside of Gaza due to your trigger happy IDF hooligan's "pinpoint targeting"...and they have the damn T-shirts to prove it.

It ain't only bullets that kills these kids, it is people like you who provide an excuse for every bullet that ends up lodged in some dying childs body..

 

[aris2chat]

I still can't figure out what this has to do with this thread?

Just to point out a basic fact: humanity, as a species, has been jubulantly and righteously massacring each other since it picked up the first stone. Don't see how this relates to the discussion on human rights violations of incarcerated children today.

That palestnians have been violating the rights of jews in Hebron and now use their kids as weapons against the Israelis?
That human rights are not observed by some palestinians.
You can't apply western standards to the middle east, things are very different. To hold Israel to the standards of peaceful western nations under the circumstances is not right.
Israel will do what it most for it's security. Considering the value of life by some palestinian groups, Israel has to take stronger measures as a precaution. Israel goes to extreme measures to minimize death or damage when possible, but in a war nothing is absolutely safe. Israel will attack what it must, but it is one of the best as pinpoint targeting, it has had to be.

I wish I could say that that is a unique justification for Israelis abusing Palestinian children, but it is about par for the course.

Yeah, Israel really exhibits its strength by putting children in cages in the rain.

Yeah, Israel is excellent at pinpointing targets, ask the Samouni family, And Captain R, oh, Major R... after the trial he was promoted, who emptied a clip into Iman Al-Hams as she lay dying in the dirt after being wounded by another pinpoint Israeli round.

Hell, there are dead kids littering the streets and countryside of Gaza due to your trigger happy IDF hooligan's "pinpoint targeting"...and they have the damn T-shirts to prove it.

It ain't only bullets that kills these kids, it is people like you who provide an excuse for every bullet that ends up lodged in some dying childs body..

Hamas Schools Teaching Children How to Kill Israelis–with Real Guns
site-iconcommentarymagazine.com/2013/05/01/hamas-schools-teaching-children-how-to-kill-israelis-with-real-guns/
Evelyn Gordon

Having complained frequently about the media’s failure to report anything that might detract from their preferred narrative of Israel-as-villain, I’m delighted to discover that one British paper is bucking this trend. The Telegraph ran two articles this week describing the miserable situation in Hamas-run Gaza. And as reporter Phoebe Greenwood makes clear, the culprit isn’t Israel, but the elected Hamas government.

The first describes how Hamas has introduced military training into the curriculum of Gaza high schools–after having previously excised sports from said curriculum on the grounds that there wasn’t time for it. The mandatory weekly classes include learning how to shoot a Kalashnikov rifle; students who so choose can learn more advanced skills, like throwing grenades, at optional two-week camps. The article also includes video footage of Hamas militants demonstrating their skills for the students on a school playground: They carry out a mock raid on an Israel Defense Forces outpost, killing one soldier and capturing another, then demolish the outpost with a rocket-propelled grenade.

Needless to say, educating schoolchildren to view Israelis solely through the sights of a rifle doesn’t contribute to peaceful coexistence. And as Samar Zakout of the Gaza-based human rights groups Al Mezan noted, it also willfully endangers the students: If Hamas is using schools as military training bases, they could become targets for Israeli airstrikes in a future conflict.

But Hamas also engages in more direct forms of abuse, as Greenwood’s second article makes clear. It describes the victims of Hamas’s modesty patrols. In April alone, police arrested “at least 41 men” for crimes such as wearing low-slung pants or putting gel in their hair. Most were brutally beaten; they also had their heads forcibly shaved. One victim described being dragged into a police station and seeing “a mountain of hair, it looked like it had been shaved from 300 heads.” Another described being beaten on the soles of his feet with a plastic rod “for at least five minutes. I was crying and screaming with agony. It was the worst pain I’ve ever felt.”

Yet Greenwood’s articles, unsparing though they are, still leave out one crucial point: The situation isn’t much better in the Palestinian Authority-controlled West Bank. There, too, Palestinians are subject to arbitrary arrest for such crimes as insulting PA President Mahmoud Abbas on Facebook. There, too, Palestinian schoolchildren are taught to view all of Israel, even in the pre-1967 lines, as “stolen” Palestinian land that must be reclaimed someday. There, too, murderers of Israelis, like the one who killed a father of five this week, are glorified as “heroes”; the PA even gave the honor of launching its UN statehood campaign to the proud mother of four sons who are serving a combined 18 life sentences for murdering Israelis. It’s no wonder that, according to a new Pew poll, Palestinians are the biggest supporters of suicide bombings in the Islamic world.

This is the reality journalists and diplomats consistently ignore, because it disrupts their comfortable theory that Israeli-Palestinian peace could be made tomorrow if Israel would just cede a little more territory. But the truth is that Israeli-Palestinian peace will never be made until Palestinian leaders do two things: stop teaching their children that killing Israelis is life’s greatest glory, and start providing their people with a decent life instead.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

I still can't figure out what this has to do with this thread?

Just to point out a basic fact: humanity, as a species, has been jubulantly and righteously massacring each other since it picked up the first stone. Don't see how this relates to the discussion on human rights violations of incarcerated children today.

That palestnians have been violating the rights of jews in Hebron and now use their kids as weapons against the Israelis?
That human rights are not observed by some palestinians.
You can't apply western standards to the middle east, things are very different. To hold Israel to the standards of peaceful western nations under the circumstances is not right.
Israel will do what it most for it's security. Considering the value of life by some palestinian groups, Israel has to take stronger measures as a precaution. Israel goes to extreme measures to minimize death or damage when possible, but in a war nothing is absolutely safe. Israel will attack what it must, but it is one of the best as pinpoint targeting, it has had to be.

I wish I could say that that is a unique justification for Israelis abusing Palestinian children, but it is about par for the course.

Yeah, Israel really exhibits its strength by putting children in cages in the rain.

Yeah, Israel is excellent at pinpointing targets, ask the Samouni family, And Captain R, oh, Major R... after the trial he was promoted, who emptied a clip into Iman Al-Hams as she lay dying in the dirt after being wounded by another pinpoint Israeli round.

Hell, there are dead kids littering the streets and countryside of Gaza due to your trigger happy IDF hooligan's "pinpoint targeting"...and they have the damn T-shirts to prove it.

It ain't only bullets that kills these kids, it is people like you who provide an excuse for every bullet that ends up lodged in some dying childs body..

I remember the day you first posted on these forums. We thought you were a reincarnation of another user. You admitted to not knowing the first thing about the Israel Palestine conflict but were open to learning. It seems you have learned only too well, and quickly and from the lying side tool.

 

[irosie91]

The Palestinian massacre of the Jews in Hebron in 1928 was the first doumented massacre in the Jewish city even before the re-establishment of Israel in 1948.



QUOTE=Coyote;8485525]

OUTSTANDING SUBJECT. Yes indeed let everyone know about human rights violations in Hebron. Even the mass murder of innocent children.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wireki/1929_Hebron_massac

What does an event that took place in 1929 - 85 years ago - have to do with this?

Those attacked were Europeans. Even the indigenous Jews hated them.[/QUOTE]


for the record-----the islamo nazi assertions that "indigenous" jews of
Israel/judea and "european jews" of israel/judea HATE or hated each other
is islamo nazi PROPAGANDA -----When I was young (and beautiful) ---
I came into contact with lots of young docs in training-----in a very large
hospital in which I had a college time weekend job------little receptionist at front
desk. -----------more than half of them were from southeast asia.
I was there----evening hours----weekend-----the young docs like to talk----
because I am short----like "the girls back home" One young doc----from pakistan
upon learning I am a jew (naturally he assumed me to be christian at first---so
candid little thing that I was ---"i am jewish") "ISRAEL WILL BE GONE WITHIN
TWO YEARS" me>> "why"? answer "the ashkenazi jews and the
sephardi jews are killing each other off" me "no they aren't" him---"yes they
are ----they hate each other---they have always hated each other" me "no they
don't" etc etc

I was very impressed-----most christians I knew at that time never used or even
knew the words "ashkenazi" or "sephardi"----and here was a pakistani---talking
to what was probably the first jew he ever met in his life. I WAS DAMNED
IMPRESSED WITH THE MEDICAL SCHOOL TRAINING AVAILABLE IN KARACHI---
just as I am impressed with Dreolin and his erudition

uhm still waiting ----that "two years" was over-----more than 40 years ago.
for the record-----there have never been any feuds amongst jews
based on sephardi vs ashkenazi ----in all of history that exceed what my
grandma had to say about those DAMNED LITVAKS (or something like that)
and their less than worthy cuisine chulent---or gossip ---or whatever

PS this conversation took place before I has any idea that pakistani sunnis like
to do DRIVE BY SHOOTINGs to get rid of shiites

 

[dreolin]

The Palestinian massacre of the Jews in Hebron in 1928 was the first doumented massacre in the Jewish city even before the re-establishment of Israel in 1948.



QUOTE=Coyote;8485525]

What does an event that took place in 1929 - 85 years ago - have to do with this?

from dreolin...
Those attacked were Europeans. Even the indigenous Jews hated them.

From Phoenall...
LINK from an unbiased source ?[/QUOTE]

While I do not regard this source as unbiased, I am almost certain it will meet your needs...conrsider it your Jewish Treat or the day.

"Following World War I, the British assumed control of the territory of Palestine. The Arabs resented the influx of European Jews that followed. In Hebron, the creation of the Yeshiva of Hebron, a branch of the Slabodka Yeshiva in Russia, significantly increased these tensions."

Jewish Treats: The Hebron Massacre of 1929

That would be the "Russia' in Europe, not the one in Virginia or Ohio, which you are fond of pointing out as Mideastern states.

 

[Coyote]

The Palestinian massacre of the Jews in Hebron in 1928 was the first doumented massacre in the Jewish city even before the re-establishment of Israel in 1948.

I still can't figure out what this has to do with this thread?

Just to point out a basic fact: humanity, as a species, has been jubulantly and righteously massacring each other since it picked up the first stone. Don't see how this relates to the discussion on human rights violations of incarcerated children today.

That palestnians have been violating the rights of jews in Hebron and now use their kids as weapons against the Israelis?

Again. You are taking an event that occured 85 years ago when that entire region was in turmoil and the concepts of internationally recognized human rights in it's infancy. Bringing it up is an attempt to deflect form the actual issue under discussion.

That human rights are not observed by some palestinians.

I am sure that is correct. However, does that excuse human rights violations elsewhere?

You can't apply western standards to the middle east, things are very different. To hold Israel to the standards of peaceful western nations under the circumstances is not right.
Israel will do what it most for it's security.

I'm sure it will. Just as I'm sure that Iran will and Syria will and Somalia, the Congo, Egypt... Should we hold them to any sort of standards?

The thing with Israel is - it labels itself as a Western style democracy and a pre-dominantly western culture. If it wishes to be viewed as such and treated as such by the international community.

I do not think that insisting on an equal standard of justice for stone-throwing children is extreme.

I do not think that insisting that following internationally agreed upon standards on the treatment of children being incarcerated is an unfair expectation of a country that considers itself civilized, humane, and enlightened.

Considering the value of life by some palestinian groups, Israel has to take stronger measures as a precaution. Israel goes to extreme measures to minimize death or damage when possible, but in a war nothing is absolutely safe. Israel will attack what it must, but it is one of the best as pinpoint targeting, it has had to be.

Abusing children is not an acceptable "stronger measure". Do Israeli stone-throwing children meet with the same standard of justice? Are they put into outdoor holding pens?
Are they forceably taken from their homes at night, held without being allowed to see an attorney or family member? I doubt it. They are prosecuted as children and given full legal rights.

 

[dreolin]

That palestnians have been violating the rights of jews in Hebron and now use their kids as weapons against the Israelis?
That human rights are not observed by some palestinians.
You can't apply western standards to the middle east, things are very different. To hold Israel to the standards of peaceful western nations under the circumstances is not right.
Israel will do what it most for it's security. Considering the value of life by some palestinian groups, Israel has to take stronger measures as a precaution. Israel goes to extreme measures to minimize death or damage when possible, but in a war nothing is absolutely safe. Israel will attack what it must, but it is one of the best as pinpoint targeting, it has had to be.

I wish I could say that that is a unique justification for Israelis abusing Palestinian children, but it is about par for the course.

Yeah, Israel really exhibits its strength by putting children in cages in the rain.

Yeah, Israel is excellent at pinpointing targets, ask the Samouni family, And Captain R, oh, Major R... after the trial he was promoted, who emptied a clip into Iman Al-Hams as she lay dying in the dirt after being wounded by another pinpoint Israeli round.

Hell, there are dead kids littering the streets and countryside of Gaza due to your trigger happy IDF hooligan's "pinpoint targeting"...and they have the damn T-shirts to prove it.

It ain't only bullets that kills these kids, it is people like you who provide an excuse for every bullet that ends up lodged in some dying childs body..

I remember the day you first posted on these forums. We thought you were a reincarnation of another user. You admitted to not knowing the first thing about the Israel Palestine conflict but were open to learning. It seems you have learned only too well, and quickly and from the lying side tool.

LOL... make all the personal attacks you want, they don't really bother me and reflect more on your character than mine, but unless you respond to what I have said among all your side chatter, I am just going to put it in the win column.

And I said no such thing.

 

[dreolin]

That palestnians have been violating the rights of jews in Hebron and now use their kids as weapons against the Israelis?
That human rights are not observed by some palestinians.
You can't apply western standards to the middle east, things are very different. To hold Israel to the standards of peaceful western nations under the circumstances is not right.
Israel will do what it most for it's security. Considering the value of life by some palestinian groups, Israel has to take stronger measures as a precaution. Israel goes to extreme measures to minimize death or damage when possible, but in a war nothing is absolutely safe. Israel will attack what it must, but it is one of the best as pinpoint targeting, it has had to be.

I wish I could say that that is a unique justification for Israelis abusing Palestinian children, but it is about par for the course.

Yeah, Israel really exhibits its strength by putting children in cages in the rain.

Yeah, Israel is excellent at pinpointing targets, ask the Samouni family, And Captain R, oh, Major R... after the trial he was promoted, who emptied a clip into Iman Al-Hams as she lay dying in the dirt after being wounded by another pinpoint Israeli round.

Hell, there are dead kids littering the streets and countryside of Gaza due to your trigger happy IDF hooligan's "pinpoint targeting"...and they have the damn T-shirts to prove it.

It ain't only bullets that kills these kids, it is people like you who provide an excuse for every bullet that ends up lodged in some dying childs body..

Hamas Schools Teaching Children How to Kill Israelis–with Real Guns
site-iconcommentarymagazine.com/2013/05/01/hamas-schools-teaching-children-how-to-kill-israelis-with-real-guns/
Evelyn Gordon

Having complained frequently about the media’s failure to report anything that might detract from their preferred narrative of Israel-as-villain, I’m delighted to discover that one British paper is bucking this trend. The Telegraph ran two articles this week describing the miserable situation in Hamas-run Gaza. And as reporter Phoebe Greenwood makes clear, the culprit isn’t Israel, but the elected Hamas government.

The first describes how Hamas has introduced military training into the curriculum of Gaza high schools–after having previously excised sports from said curriculum on the grounds that there wasn’t time for it. The mandatory weekly classes include learning how to shoot a Kalashnikov rifle; students who so choose can learn more advanced skills, like throwing grenades, at optional two-week camps. The article also includes video footage of Hamas militants demonstrating their skills for the students on a school playground: They carry out a mock raid on an Israel Defense Forces outpost, killing one soldier and capturing another, then demolish the outpost with a rocket-propelled grenade.

Needless to say, educating schoolchildren to view Israelis solely through the sights of a rifle doesn’t contribute to peaceful coexistence. And as Samar Zakout of the Gaza-based human rights groups Al Mezan noted, it also willfully endangers the students: If Hamas is using schools as military training bases, they could become targets for Israeli airstrikes in a future conflict.

But Hamas also engages in more direct forms of abuse, as Greenwood’s second article makes clear. It describes the victims of Hamas’s modesty patrols. In April alone, police arrested “at least 41 men” for crimes such as wearing low-slung pants or putting gel in their hair. Most were brutally beaten; they also had their heads forcibly shaved. One victim described being dragged into a police station and seeing “a mountain of hair, it looked like it had been shaved from 300 heads.” Another described being beaten on the soles of his feet with a plastic rod “for at least five minutes. I was crying and screaming with agony. It was the worst pain I’ve ever felt.”

Yet Greenwood’s articles, unsparing though they are, still leave out one crucial point: The situation isn’t much better in the Palestinian Authority-controlled West Bank. There, too, Palestinians are subject to arbitrary arrest for such crimes as insulting PA President Mahmoud Abbas on Facebook. There, too, Palestinian schoolchildren are taught to view all of Israel, even in the pre-1967 lines, as “stolen” Palestinian land that must be reclaimed someday. There, too, murderers of Israelis, like the one who killed a father of five this week, are glorified as “heroes”; the PA even gave the honor of launching its UN statehood campaign to the proud mother of four sons who are serving a combined 18 life sentences for murdering Israelis. It’s no wonder that, according to a new Pew poll, Palestinians are the biggest supporters of suicide bombings in the Islamic world.

This is the reality journalists and diplomats consistently ignore, because it disrupts their comfortable theory that Israeli-Palestinian peace could be made tomorrow if Israel would just cede a little more territory. But the truth is that Israeli-Palestinian peace will never be made until Palestinian leaders do two things: stop teaching their children that killing Israelis is life’s greatest glory, and start providing their people with a decent life instead.

Damn, aris2chat. With propaganda like that, I bet it would be easy to cage 6.000.000 Palestinian children in the rain indefinitely without even batting an eye.

 

[irosie91]

I still can't figure out what this has to do with this thread?

Just to point out a basic fact: humanity, as a species, has been jubulantly and righteously massacring each other since it picked up the first stone. Don't see how this relates to the discussion on human rights violations of incarcerated children today.

That palestnians have been violating the rights of jews in Hebron and now use their kids as weapons against the Israelis?

Again. You are taking an event that occured 85 years ago when that entire region was in turmoil and the concepts of internationally recognized human rights in it's infancy. Bringing it up is an attempt to deflect form the actual issue under discussion.



I am sure that is correct. However, does that excuse human rights violations elsewhere?

You can't apply western standards to the middle east, things are very different. To hold Israel to the standards of peaceful western nations under the circumstances is not right.
Israel will do what it most for it's security.

I'm sure it will. Just as I'm sure that Iran will and Syria will and Somalia, the Congo, Egypt... Should we hold them to any sort of standards?

The thing with Israel is - it labels itself as a Western style democracy and a pre-dominantly western culture. If it wishes to be viewed as such and treated as such by the international community.

I do not think that insisting on an equal standard of justice for stone-throwing children is extreme.

I do not think that insisting that following internationally agreed upon standards on the treatment of children being incarcerated is an unfair expectation of a country that considers itself civilized, humane, and enlightened.

Considering the value of life by some palestinian groups, Israel has to take stronger measures as a precaution. Israel goes to extreme measures to minimize death or damage when possible, but in a war nothing is absolutely safe. Israel will attack what it must, but it is one of the best as pinpoint targeting, it has had to be.

Abusing children is not an acceptable "stronger measure". Do Israeli stone-throwing children meet with the same standard of justice? Are they put into outdoor holding pens?
Are they forceably taken from their homes at night, held without being allowed to see an attorney or family member? I doubt it. They are prosecuted as children and given full legal rights.

There is always an issue of ENVIROMENT---in all biological systems. Israel is in
the middle east. Most of the jews living there have family roots (some thru
some family members at least) in muslim societies The phrase "abusing
children" is propagandaist. ALL INCARCERATIONS are called abuse
by the incarcerated and their famiiles ---my only direct experience with that fact
involves incarcerated children and adults in THE USA.

as to statements regarding what "rights" rock throwers enjoy in Israel----
I do have the indirect information from a relative who takes care of arab
incarcerated children in israel-----but that is all I have never heard of
an israeli child who killed an arab by throwing rocks at either his
car or his head -----but there are several such cases of arab children doing
so to Israelis Suggesting that murder is no different from-----no murder
is a bit of a stretch Suggesting that INTEREST GROUPS such as
Amnesty international or B'tselem provide meticulous information or that
TZIPI LIVNI is anything but a political opportunist is even MORE of a stretch

So far this conversation is based on-----no real information---utter lack of
reliable data

 

[Coyote]

I don't think anyone disputes that Hamas or the PO engage in human rights abuses and intimidation tactics. However, it's used to excuse Israel's own abuses.

So start at thread on what Hamas is doing instead of making endless excuses for what Israel is doing.

And, speaking of being "glorified as heros"....it occurs on both sides of the border - for example Cave of Patriarchs mass killer Baruch Goldstein is quite honored in certain Israeli communities.

 

[Coyote]

That palestnians have been violating the rights of jews in Hebron and now use their kids as weapons against the Israelis?

Again. You are taking an event that occured 85 years ago when that entire region was in turmoil and the concepts of internationally recognized human rights in it's infancy. Bringing it up is an attempt to deflect form the actual issue under discussion.



I am sure that is correct. However, does that excuse human rights violations elsewhere?



I'm sure it will. Just as I'm sure that Iran will and Syria will and Somalia, the Congo, Egypt... Should we hold them to any sort of standards?

The thing with Israel is - it labels itself as a Western style democracy and a pre-dominantly western culture. If it wishes to be viewed as such and treated as such by the international community.

I do not think that insisting on an equal standard of justice for stone-throwing children is extreme.

I do not think that insisting that following internationally agreed upon standards on the treatment of children being incarcerated is an unfair expectation of a country that considers itself civilized, humane, and enlightened.

Considering the value of life by some palestinian groups, Israel has to take stronger measures as a precaution. Israel goes to extreme measures to minimize death or damage when possible, but in a war nothing is absolutely safe. Israel will attack what it must, but it is one of the best as pinpoint targeting, it has had to be.

Abusing children is not an acceptable "stronger measure". Do Israeli stone-throwing children meet with the same standard of justice? Are they put into outdoor holding pens?
Are they forceably taken from their homes at night, held without being allowed to see an attorney or family member? I doubt it. They are prosecuted as children and given full legal rights.

There is always an issue of ENVIROMENT---in all biological systems. Israel is in
the middle east. Most of the jews living there have family roots (some thru
some family members at least) in muslim societies The phrase "abusing
children" is propagandaist. ALL INCARCERATIONS are called abuse
by the incarcerated and their famiiles ---my only direct experience with that fact
involves incarcerated children and adults in THE USA.

as to statements regarding what "rights" rock throwers enjoy in Israel----
I do have the indirect information from a relative who takes care of arab
incarcerated children in israel-----but that is all I have never heard of
an israeli child who killed an arab by throwing rocks at either his
car or his head -----but there are several such cases of arab children doing
so to Israelis Suggesting that murder is no different from-----no murder
is a bit of a stretch Suggesting that INTEREST GROUPS such as
Amnesty international or B'tselem provide meticulous information or that
TZIPI LIVNI is anything but a political opportunist is even MORE of a stretch

So far this conversation is based on-----no real information---utter lack of
reliable data

When it comes to rock throwing - the argument is that it COULD kill someone, not that it necessarily has. Most (if not all) the deaths resulting from it are secondary - when the rocks thrown have led to vehicle crashes. When people are throwing a rock they aren't thoughtfully aiming with the intent to kill or not kill - they are throwing to cause whatever damage they can. The fact that they haven't killed someone or that they have killed someone is sheer luck and/or ineptitude.

Trying to justify two different standards of justice based on that doesn't work very well.

Here is a case where rock throwing by settlers was directed at a children's school:

The Urif Boys Secondary Shool, with approximately 250 students, has also seen its fair share of attacks by settlers this year. Nabil al-Najjar, the school’s principal, told Al-Monitor that the current school year has witnessed multiple assaults, which resulted in evacuating the school eight times.

“It’s very disruptive, of course, but we must take precautions,” he said. “As a headmaster, I can’t be responsible for endangering the lives of these students. The same morning that the settler was killed, two groups of settlers, 50 in each group, descended on the school and from a distance of half a kilometer began pelting the windows with rocks. I called the headmistress of the girls’ school, which is 10 minutes away from my school, and told her it was better to send the students home as well.”

Violent confrontations persisted throughout the day in Urif, with Najjar observing the Israeli army in some instances enabling the settlers to carry out attacks or firing tear gas at Palestinian farmers either tending or attempting to protect their lands.

Najjar said that a number of students accused of throwing stones had been arrested at their homes by the army during the school year, but were usually released after a few days or weeks. Settler violence, he remarked, is something that the village has grown to expect, and he believes that in light of the Palestinian Authority’s ineptitude at protecting Palestinians, international media awareness is hugely vital.

Read more: Israeli Settlers Escalate Violence Against Palestinians - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

It doesn't sound like there is much of a penalty for the youth's caught throwing rocks. I doubt they were put in outdoor cages either.

 

[MHunterB]

I don't think anyone disputes that Hamas or the PO engage in human rights abuses and intimidation tactics. However, it's used to excuse Israel's own abuses.

So start at thread on what Hamas is doing instead of making endless excuses for what Israel is doing.

And, speaking of being "glorified as heros"....it occurs on both sides of the border - for example Cave of Patriarchs mass killer Baruch Goldstein is quite honored in certain Israeli communities.

Ye, certain extremist fringe groups honor him. But nobody's tried to name a community center, soccer stadium or street after him - as the PLO/PA and HAMAS have done numerous times for terrorists.

 

[irosie91]

you have provided no information. Your comment on INTENT is a good one---however.
THROWING ROCKS at a "school" is a far cry from a strong seventeen year old kid
flinging rocks at the heads of elderly people with a sling. a school? like at its wall?
DEATHS FROM ROCK FLINGING ARE "ACCIDENTAL"???-------here is some news----
If a person is knowing flinging rocks----directing them at the heads of children or elderly
people----the only "accident" is not killing them If a person is flinging rocks----
at random cars carrying families-------the only accident is NOT CAUSING A FATAL
ACCIDENT Then there are MIRACLES considering the overt and incessant
violent with intent to kill murderous activity of the armed "settlers" that you claim PLUS
the UTTER DISREGARD by Israeli police------it is miraculous that thosands
of "palestinians" do not lie dead in the gutters of the west bank,

considering that which young sailors told me about the NAVY BRIG------it is a wonder
that so many survive those "six months at hard labor" I wondered so much that
I demanded a right to INSPECT THE BRIG--------lol------I was really an idiot

 

[irosie91]

I don't think anyone disputes that Hamas or the PO engage in human rights abuses and intimidation tactics. However, it's used to excuse Israel's own abuses.

So start at thread on what Hamas is doing instead of making endless excuses for what Israel is doing.

And, speaking of being "glorified as heros"....it occurs on both sides of the border - for example Cave of Patriarchs mass killer Baruch Goldstein is quite honored in certain Israeli communities.

Ye, certain extremist fringe groups honor him. But nobody's tried to name a community center, soccer stadium or street after him - as the PLO/PA and HAMAS have done numerous times for terrorists.

Dr Baruch Goldstein was honored by his muslim patients in Brooklyn----and he
was loved by his friends and relatives-----and that is about that. but I do
appreciate the update on islamo fascist propaganda Even those who wanted
to raise a MEMORIAL thingy for him do not praise him for killing muslims------
Sluts with bombs on their asses are considered ISA/ALLA saints based on how
many jewish children they murdered . Little boys are not encourage to
EMULATE GOLDSTEIN in yeshivas-------but little girls in masjids are
encouraged to EMULATE THE FILTHY SLUT----wafa idris
Comparisons are the basis of all sciences a normal HEMATOCRIT
is determined based on the HEMATOCRITS of a large sample of normal
PEOPLE -----as a COMPARISON. Compared to the average adult
famale------I am a bit short-----but still wthin two standard deviations
of a large sample so I am not "ABNORMAL" For normal people-----
actual REWARDS FOR MURDERING CHILDREN more than two standard
deviations from -----the mean---in a very negative sense. For your
preferred group-----it it is more than two standard deviations from the norm
in a POSTIVE SENSE-------laudable HIGHEST HONORS 97th PERCENTILE

 

[Coyote]

I don't think anyone disputes that Hamas or the PO engage in human rights abuses and intimidation tactics. However, it's used to excuse Israel's own abuses.

So start at thread on what Hamas is doing instead of making endless excuses for what Israel is doing.

And, speaking of being "glorified as heros"....it occurs on both sides of the border - for example Cave of Patriarchs mass killer Baruch Goldstein is quite honored in certain Israeli communities.

Ye, certain extremist fringe groups honor him. But nobody's tried to name a community center, soccer stadium or street after him - as the PLO/PA and HAMAS have done numerous times for terrorists.

I wouldn't be so quick to label them "fringe" - extremist yes, but the represent a significant enough minority of people, particularly among the settlers. These are also the same people who are engaging in violent attacks on Palestinian farmers, schools and villages. It's a large enough number that it causes concern within Israel as does the fact that while few show support - few outright condemn it either. It's disturbing because, although to a lesser degree - it undeniably mirrors the Palestinian community particularly in connection with opinion polls showing an increasing bigotry towards Arab citizens.

Peace Now is not the only one spewing criticism at Goldstein admirers. Realistic Religious Zionism member Yonatan Urich says that "very few normative people will show support for an act like the one perpetrated by Goldstein, but on the other hand, they do not explicitly condemn his actions either," he said.

Ulrich adds that he often hears comments such as "Goldstein was a saint, but did unthinkable actions." According to the same logic, Urich noted, "One can assume Stalin was a nice guy who did horrible things."

Source: Goldstein legacy continues - Israel News, Ynetnews

Edited to add: while I agree that naming streets etc after terrorists - is that any different than what Israel did to commemerate it's own "terrorists" some of whom later became leading political figures?

 

[irosie91]

I don't think anyone disputes that Hamas or the PO engage in human rights abuses and intimidation tactics. However, it's used to excuse Israel's own abuses.

So start at thread on what Hamas is doing instead of making endless excuses for what Israel is doing.

And, speaking of being "glorified as heros"....it occurs on both sides of the border - for example Cave of Patriarchs mass killer Baruch Goldstein is quite honored in certain Israeli communities.

Ye, certain extremist fringe groups honor him. But nobody's tried to name a community center, soccer stadium or street after him - as the PLO/PA and HAMAS have done numerous times for terrorists.

I wouldn't be so quick to label them "fringe" - extremist yes, but the represent a significant enough minority of people, particularly among the settlers. These are also the same people who are engaging in violent attacks on Palestinian farmers, schools and villages. It's a large enough number that it causes concern within Israel as does the fact that while few show support - few outright condemn it either. It's disturbing because, although to a lesser degree - it undeniably mirrors the Palestinian community particularly in connection with opinion polls showing an increasing bigotry towards Arab citizens.

Peace Now is not the only one spewing criticism at Goldstein admirers. Realistic Religious Zionism member Yonatan Urich says that "very few normative people will show support for an act like the one perpetrated by Goldstein, but on the other hand, they do not explicitly condemn his actions either," he said.

Ulrich adds that he often hears comments such as "Goldstein was a saint, but did unthinkable actions." According to the same logic, Urich noted, "One can assume Stalin was a nice guy who did horrible things."

Source: Goldstein legacy continues - Israel News, Ynetnews

Edited to add: while I agree that naming streets etc after terrorists - is that any different than what Israel did to commemerate it's own "terrorists" some of whom later became leading political figures?

right ----something like the USA in making the TERRORIST --george washington---
the first president for the record---gandhi was also wanted by the britsh
for his terrorist activities

lets try to be a bit specific how many societies pat people on the back specifically
for slitting the throat of an infant?--------GOOD JOB FATIMAH----ALL THE LITTLE GIRS
SHOULD EMULATE YOU........

 

[Coyote]

Some how, I just don't invision Baruch Goldstein standing alongside Mahatma Ghandi or George Washington.

Nope. Not even close.

Unusual view point.

 

[MJB12741]

Sounds like you know the IRA's ways very well.

I still can't figure out what this has to do with this thread?

Just to point out a basic fact: humanity, as a species, has been jubulantly and righteously massacring each other since it picked up the first stone. Don't see how this relates to the discussion on human rights violations of incarcerated children today.

That palestnians have been violating the rights of jews in Hebron and now use their kids as weapons against the Israelis?
That human rights are not observed by some palestinians.
You can't apply western standards to the middle east, things are very different. To hold Israel to the standards of peaceful western nations under the circumstances is not right.
Israel will do what it most for it's security. Considering the value of life by some palestinian groups, Israel has to take stronger measures as a precaution. Israel goes to extreme measures to minimize death or damage when possible, but in a war nothing is absolutely safe. Israel will attack what it must, but it is one of the best as pinpoint targeting, it has had to be.

I wish I could say that that is a unique justification for Israelis abusing Palestinian children, but it is about par for the course.

Yeah, Israel really exhibits its strength by putting children in cages in the rain.

Yeah, Israel is excellent at pinpointing targets, ask the Samouni family, And Captain R, oh, Major R... after the trial he was promoted, who emptied a clip into Iman Al-Hams as she lay dying in the dirt after being wounded by another pinpoint Israeli round.

Hell, there are dead kids littering the streets and countryside of Gaza due to your trigger happy IDF hooligan's "pinpoint targeting"...and they have the damn T-shirts to prove it.

It ain't only bullets that kills these kids, it is people like you who provide an excuse for every bullet that ends up lodged in some dying childs body..

 

[Lipush]

Some how, I just don't invision Baruch Goldstein standing alongside Mahatma Ghandi or George Washington.

Nope. Not even close.

Unusual view point.

Baruch Goldstein is dead