Observation on Abortion Debats

[Dragonlady]

I personally think all abortion past 20 weeks should be banned, except for life of mother and child.

They didn't even draw fluid for my anmio-centisis until I was 19 weeks pregnant and it took three weeks for the results. You would ban any woman over 40 from obtaining an abortion if the amnio-centisis test found fetal abnormalities.

Or did you even consider that such a decision might not be possible at 20 weeks?

 

[Derideo_Te]

?Where did that come from?

I never made that claim at all.

My claim was simple – that elective 3rd trimester abortion do indeed happen and that is totally legal AND in accordance with Roe. I thought you made the claim that elective 3rd trimester abortions did not occur and were ILLEGAL according to Roe. They are not.

I am confused as to where we got off track here? Can you point out where you think I was claiming that Roe made 3rd trimester abortions illegal? The entire point of my last two posts was disproving that as I thought that was the claim you were making when you stated this:


That seems clear to me that YOUR claim was that Roe ONLY allows 3rd trimester abortions in case of danger to health. My entire contention is that is incorrect, Roe simply guarantees that right exists in that case and it is up to the states to regulate anything beyond that. Hence where 9 states that do not do so was relevant. 3rd trimester abortions are NOT in violation of roe, therefore it is impossible for me to provide any evidence anyone is violating Roe in that matter. BTW, if that is your claim, the onus is on you to show that such abortions ARE against Roe. As previously stated, they are not and the reasons are given in my last two posts.

In those states, elective third trimester abortions ARE legal, they ARE in accordance with Roe and they do occur. None of that ever claims that such is against the constitution – that would be silly to state. I don’t think that anyone thinks abortions are against the constitution in any form at all.

I really am confused as to how we ended up here?

OK, let's start again from the beginning by posting the summary of the RvW decision;



Which part of that ruling do you have a problem with?

I have never had a problem with Roe. I have never expressed a problem with Roe.

I will add that the following:

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability, the State in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life [410 U.S. 113, 165] may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother.

Means that elective third trimester abortions are perfectly legal in states (9 of them atm) that have not regulated that procedure.

That has been my contention since the beginning.

On what are you basing that allegation? From where are you obtaining the claim that 9 states have no 3rd trimester regulations? Have you checked that for yourself by looking into the regulations of those 9 states?

 

[FA_Q2]

On what are you basing that allegation? From where are you obtaining the claim that 9 states have no 3rd trimester regulations? Have you checked that for yourself by looking into the regulations of those 9 states?

I gave you the link in this thread twice already. I have quoted it numerous times.

 

[Vox]

Amnio centesis, still the go-to test for fetal abnormalities, isn't performed until 20 weeks into the pregnancy, which means that we're at 23 - 24 weeks before the results are known. Banning abortions after 20 weeks means that women at risk don't even have the information they need to make an informed decision at 20 weeks.

The bald fact is that if you believe abortion is morally wrong, then don't have one. No one is going to force you to have an abortion you don't want. That is the freedom of choice which is consist with what conservatives purportedly stand for - freedom from government interference in their day to day lives.

Nothing is more personal that having a baby. Nothing affects a woman's life more than the decision to have a baby. Yet conservatives, who believe in "personal responsibility" think, don't think women are capable of making this decision for themselves. Hypocracy at it's finest.

NOT TRUE.

neither amniocentesis is a definite test on abnormalities nor is it performed that late.

women after 35 have a 15% false positive result for Down syndrome and vegetarians have even higher - 17% false positives.

Which means that 15% of women older than 35 and 17% of vegetarian women will test POSITIVE on amniocentesis for Down syndrome and their baby WON"T HAVE IT.

There is NO KNOWN definite test on prenatal diagnosis of chromosomal or developmental abnormalities.

ALL of them have a very high percentage of false positives and false negatives.

 

[Vox]

Amnio centesis, still the go-to test for fetal abnormalities, isn't performed until 20 weeks into the pregnancy, which means that we're at 23 - 24 weeks before the results are known. Banning abortions after 20 weeks means that women at risk don't even have the information they need to make an informed decision at 20 weeks.

That must be why they set the figure at that number of weeks, so it's impossible to decide to abort impaired fetuses.

These so-called "pro-life" people are incredibly cruel.

and you and other pro-aborts are incredibly stupid.

 

[Vox]

Why don't you all stop dancing around this issue and answer the following question (YES OR NO):

Do you think 3rd trimester abortions should be legal where only the mother's "emotional health" is at risk?

No. ‘Emotional’ heath is a bullshit term. IDLH, THAT is what should constitute ‘health.’

Andrea Yates was suffering from a serious MENTAL health condition that made her an IDLH of her 6 children.

Ask them if they considered her "emotional health" to be a "bullshit term"?

Oh wait, you can't because she killed them all.

Andrea Yates had a severe postpartum depression - a condition that has absolutely nothing to do with the need for abortion.
She would suffer the same after abortion as well.
Why wasn't it addressed properly is the question for her family - because this happenes not that rare.

 

[Vox]

It's a medical practice that political proponents don't even want to regulate. Didn't Gosnell's horror house indicate that the procedures in abortion clinics need to be investigated and some should be shut down? Doesn't society have the responsibility to investigate the impact abortions might have on the mental and physical health of some women? Is it possible that some babies are slaughtered outside the womb when they are "accidentally" born? If anybody ever saw the horror show of a typical partial birth abortion the whole industry would be shut down. The abortion nazis would rather keep the holocaust wholesale killing of the unborn a secret.

So because of 1 psychopath, we should deny a constitutional right to law abiding citizens? Isn't that what you conservatives went against during the gun debate? Don't deny a constitutional right because of 1 psychopath's (or multiple in the gun debate) take away the constitutional right of law abiding citizens?

People who are pro choice are "abortion nazis". They are normal people who believe in defending a woman's right to choose what to do with her own body. Not have old white men in the Capitol deciding what to do with her own body. Her own personal liberty. Yeah I guess that "being a nazi" GTFO.

Limiting late term abortions has nothing in common with your straw man at all. THAT is the topic here – LATE TERM ABORTIONS. It does not force anything on the woman. She still retains the right to abort.

why the heck can't she have a C-section if that is a third trimester? As it is done everywhere else, but this country.
There are no legal abortions past 12 weeks in most countries in Europe.

NONE.
If there are risks - they wait until viability gestational age and perform an early c-section.
There are no maternal health risks ( real, not imaginary ones) before late third trimester. If one is talking about first world medicine, not Bangladesh.

 

[Dragonlady]

NOT TRUE.

neither amniocentesis is a definite test on abnormalities nor is it performed that late.

Are you a woman who had a baby after age 40? I am and I certainly know when I had the test - 19 weeks into my pregnancy. We were told that if the results weren't favourable, I would have to make the decision immediately because of how far along I was in the pregnancy.

Amniocentesis - BabyCenter Canada

When will I have the test?
Amniocentesis is usually performed in the second trimester, from 15 weeks. Any earlier means there's less fluid around the baby, and removing it may cause a birth defect called talipes. Too early and there may not be enough cells in your baby's amniotic fluid to analyze. If you do want an earlier diagnosis, ask about CVS.

It’s very unusual to need an amniocentesis in the third trimester. You may be offered one if an abnormality is found during a later ultrasound, or if you have too much amniotic fluid (polyhydramnios). Removing the excess amniotic fluid may make you more comfortable.

Amniocentesis - BabyCenter Canada

Note that the test is not performed until the second trimester because there is insufficient amniotic fluid before that time. My OB/GYN told me that although they could test at 15 weeks, in their experience this increased the risk of miscarriage, and there may not be enough fluid at that point and I'd have to go back. He recommended waiting until I was 19 weeks pregnant, when there was certain to be enough fluid.

 

[Cecilie1200]

No. ‘Emotional’ heath is a bullshit term. IDLH, THAT is what should constitute ‘health.’

Andrea Yates was suffering from a serious MENTAL health condition that made her an IDLH of her 6 children.

Ask them if they considered her "emotional health" to be a "bullshit term"?

Oh wait, you can't because she killed them all.

Andrea Yates had a severe postpartum depression - a condition that has absolutely nothing to do with the need for abortion.
She would suffer the same after abortion as well.
Why wasn't it addressed properly is the question for her family - because this happenes not that rare.

Wait a minute. Is someone trying to say that Andrea Yates killed her children because she was somehow unable to obtain an abortion and "forced" to give birth? Or is someone trying to say that we should develop a test to determine which women are going to develop post-partum depression and then force them to abort so that they won't murder their children?

What, precisely, is the fucking point of bringing up Andrea Yates in re: to abortion?

 

[Vox]

NOT TRUE.

neither amniocentesis is a definite test on abnormalities nor is it performed that late.

Are you a woman who had a baby after age 40? I am and I certainly know when I had the test - 19 weeks into my pregnancy. We were told that if the results weren't favourable, I would have to make the decision immediately because of how far along I was in the pregnancy.

I am a physician. So I know better than you.


you can post as much yahoo. answers -like links as you want, but amniocentesis is not performed at 20 weeks but BEFORE. If the woman is a responsible one and gets prenatal care, obviously. Even you have had it at 19 ( why a supposedly educated and well-being woman after 40 would wait that long is beyond my understanding, but ok, things happen)

and it does not change a thing that amniocentesis has too many false positives and false negatives to be considered at all. ( I won't)

After 20 weeks one can have an early c-section and not an abortion.

 

[Vox]

Andrea Yates was suffering from a serious MENTAL health condition that made her an IDLH of her 6 children.

Ask them if they considered her "emotional health" to be a "bullshit term"?

Oh wait, you can't because she killed them all.

Andrea Yates had a severe postpartum depression - a condition that has absolutely nothing to do with the need for abortion.
She would suffer the same after abortion as well.
Why wasn't it addressed properly is the question for her family - because this happenes not that rare.

Wait a minute. Is someone trying to say that Andrea Yates killed her children because she was somehow unable to obtain an abortion and "forced" to give birth? Or is someone trying to say that we should develop a test to determine which women are going to develop post-partum depression and then force them to abort so that they won't murder their children?

What, precisely, is the fucking point of bringing up Andrea Yates in re: to abortion?

It was not ME who brought HER case.

I just refuted it as a case of "mental problem" which needs an abortion. DerideoTe brought it up.

There are no mental problems requiring an abortion. AT ALL. Especially after first trimester.

 

[Dragonlady]

I am a physician. So I know better than YOU.

For some reason, the first thing that pops into my head after reading this is "Yes, and I'm a supermodel". Your posts are far from knowledgeable in terms of medical information.

Iyou can post as much yahoo. answers -like links as you want, but amniocentesis is not performed at 20 weeks but BEFORE. If the woman is a responsible one and gets prenatal care, obviously. Even you have had it at 19 ( why a supposedly educated and well-being woman after 40 would wait that long is beyond my understanding, but ok, things happen)

and it does not change a thing that amniocentesis has too many false positives and false negatives to be considered at all. ( I won't)

After 20 weeks one can have an early c-section and not an abortion.

I had my amnio at the time my doctor recommended it. I had top-notch care both before and after becoming pregnant. My OB/GYN was one of the best in Canada, practiced out of the top maternity hospital in the city, and I'll take his word for it over that of a nutter on the internet pretending he's a doctor.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I am a physician. So I know better than YOU.

For some reason, the first thing that pops into my head after reading this is "Yes, and I'm a supermodel". Your posts are far from knowledgeable in terms of medical information.

Iyou can post as much yahoo. answers -like links as you want, but amniocentesis is not performed at 20 weeks but BEFORE. If the woman is a responsible one and gets prenatal care, obviously. Even you have had it at 19 ( why a supposedly educated and well-being woman after 40 would wait that long is beyond my understanding, but ok, things happen)

and it does not change a thing that amniocentesis has too many false positives and false negatives to be considered at all. ( I won't)

After 20 weeks one can have an early c-section and not an abortion.

I had my amnio at the time my doctor recommended it. I had top-notch care both before and after becoming pregnant. My OB/GYN was one of the best in Canada, practiced out of the top maternity hospital in the city, and I'll take his word for it over that of a nutter on the internet pretending he's a doctor.

I had an amniocentesis in my fifth month of my last pregnancy, largely because my doctor and I were both unaware at the time I went in that I was actually that far along. We both thought I was in my fourth month. Nevertheless, when the sonogram showed that the baby was in his fifth month of development, we went ahead with the amnio.

By the way, I disagree strongly with the use of amniocentesis almost exclusively as a decision-maker for having an abortion, rather than as merely an early warning of the need to prepare for the advent of a special-needs child.

 

[Vox]

For some reason, the first thing that pops into my head after reading this is "Yes, and I'm a supermodel". Your posts are far from knowledgeable in terms of medical information.

I could not care less what pops into your head. You do not come as a well educated and very well off "church lady" you claim to be yourself.

I had my amnio at the time my doctor recommended it. I had top-notch care both before and after becoming pregnant. My OB/GYN was one of the best in Canada, practiced out of the top maternity hospital in the city, and I'll take his word for it over that of a nutter on the internet pretending he's a doctor.

I couldn't care less what are you lying here about. Two days ago you were pretending you were a church-going retiree but your activist libbtard views prove it otherwise

 

[Vox]

By the way, I disagree strongly with the use of amniocentesis almost exclusively as a decision-maker for having an abortion, rather than as merely an early warning of the need to prepare for the advent of a special-needs child.

which it does not serve as well. First - it is not early. Second - it is not reliable. Third - it is too risky.

After 35 y.o the false-positives are too high to even view the test as necessary.
OB/GYN would recommend it to anybody as OB/GYN has the highest liability risks through medical specialties, but they rarely do recommend one to their family members.

 

[Cecilie1200]

By the way, I disagree strongly with the use of amniocentesis almost exclusively as a decision-maker for having an abortion, rather than as merely an early warning of the need to prepare for the advent of a special-needs child.

which it does not serve as well. First - it is not early. Second - it is not reliable. Third - it is too risky.

After 35 y.o the false-positives are too high to even view the test as necessary.
OB/GYN would recommend it to anybody as OB/GYN has the highest liability risks through medical specialties, but they rarely do recommend one to their family members.

Actually, amniocentesis is QUITE early, if one is using it to prepare for the birth of the child, rather than using it to decide whether or not to have an abortion because the fetus is "defective". Which, I believe, is what I said.

As far as it being used largely so that women can decide to abort the fetus if he turns out to be "defective", consider that my obstetrician, when told that I wanted an amnio, responded, "Why? You would never consent to an abortion, right?" When I said, "No, you know I wouldn't", he said, "So why put yourself through that for nothing?" What does my obstetrician know that you don't?

Second, before the hospital would perform the amnio on me, I had to consent to two hours of "genetic counseling", which consisted almost entirely of trying to scare me spitless of all the various genetic deformities the test could find and that my baby could be suffering from, given my "advanced age", and trying to convince me that if he SHOULD have any of those deformities, I should get an abortion rather than "forcing" a child to live that way. What does Tucson Medical Center's genetic counselor know about amniocentesis that you don't?

You can spout propaganda from NARAL or whichever "pro-choice" group you have a talking points hotline to all you want. I know what my personal experience was, and what the medical professionals I dealt with told me.

 

[Derideo_Te]

On what are you basing that allegation? From where are you obtaining the claim that 9 states have no 3rd trimester regulations? Have you checked that for yourself by looking into the regulations of those 9 states?

I gave you the link in this thread twice already. I have quoted it numerous times.

I can't find your link. However this is what the GI says about state laws;

http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_PLTA.pdf

HIGHLIGHTS:
 41 states prohibit some abortions after a certain point in pregnancy.
 22 states impose prohibitions at fetal viability.
 4 states impose prohibitions in the third trimester.
 15 states impose prohibitions after a certain number of weeks, generally 24 weeks or during the third
trimester; 8 of these states ban abortion at 20 weeks post-fertilization or its equivalent of 22 weeks after
the woman’s last menstrual period on the groundsthat the fetus can feel pain at that point in gestation.
 The circumstances under which later abortions are permitted vary from state to state.
 28 states permit later abortions to preserve the life or health of the woman.
 9 states unconstitutionally ban later abortions, except those performed to save the life or physical health
of the woman.
 4 states unconstitutionally limit later abortionsto those performed to save the life of the woman.
 Some states require the involvement of a second physician when a later-term abortion is performed.
 12 states require that a second physician attend the procedure to treat a fetus if it is born alive in all or
some circumstances.
 9 states unconstitutionally require that a second physician certify that the abortion is medically
necessary in all or some circumstances.

Simply because there is no absolute prohibition against 3rd semester abortions does not automatically mean that they are not regulated in some other manner.

 

[FA_Q2]

On what are you basing that allegation? From where are you obtaining the claim that 9 states have no 3rd trimester regulations? Have you checked that for yourself by looking into the regulations of those 9 states?

I gave you the link in this thread twice already. I have quoted it numerous times.

I can't find your link. However this is what the GI says about state laws;

http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_PLTA.pdf

HIGHLIGHTS:
 41 states prohibit some abortions after a certain point in pregnancy.
 22 states impose prohibitions at fetal viability.
 4 states impose prohibitions in the third trimester.
 15 states impose prohibitions after a certain number of weeks, generally 24 weeks or during the third
trimester; 8 of these states ban abortion at 20 weeks post-fertilization or its equivalent of 22 weeks after
the woman’s last menstrual period on the groundsthat the fetus can feel pain at that point in gestation.
 The circumstances under which later abortions are permitted vary from state to state.
 28 states permit later abortions to preserve the life or health of the woman.
 9 states unconstitutionally ban later abortions, except those performed to save the life or physical health
of the woman.
 4 states unconstitutionally limit later abortionsto those performed to save the life of the woman.
 Some states require the involvement of a second physician when a later-term abortion is performed.
 12 states require that a second physician attend the procedure to treat a fetus if it is born alive in all or
some circumstances.
 9 states unconstitutionally require that a second physician certify that the abortion is medically
necessary in all or some circumstances.

Simply because there is no absolute prohibition against 3rd semester abortions does not automatically mean that they are not regulated in some other manner.

So we are back at this Derideo (that was the link I had used earlier as well).

41 states prohibit abortion after a certain time. By extension, that means that 9 states do not. Period. One statement cannot be true and the other false; that is a logical impossibility. That means there are 9 states where abortion is NOT regulated based on the current stage in pregnancy ergo such abortions are 100 percent legal in those states. There is no way around that simple fact.

Before we go anywhere, lets hammer that out:

41 states regulate abortions based on stages of pregnancy.
9 have NO such regulation and those places third trimester abortions are legal.

If you do not agree with the above then you need to show why YOUR source is not correct in its claims.

 

[Dragonlady]

I couldn't care less what are you lying here about. Two days ago you were pretending you were a church-going retiree but your activist libbtard views prove it otherwise

Wow, I said I go to church and I'm retired. The lengths people will go to puff up their qualifications on the internet. But since retired church ladies get zero respect anywhere, it does seem odd that I would pretend to be one if I wasn't, now doesn't it.

That doesn't mean I didn't have a baby when I was over the age of 40. She's 23 now. Still a total pain in the ass but much better than when she was a teenager.

 

[Katzndogz]

In most European countries abortion is prohibited after 12 weeks. Even putting in a prohibition at 20 weeks is barbaric.