Observation on Abortion Debats

[Derideo_Te]

Why don't you all stop dancing around this issue and answer the following question (YES OR NO):

Do you think 3rd trimester abortions should be legal where only the mother's "emotional health" is at risk?

Define "emotional health".

Bear in mind that there have been instances of women who have murdered their own children because of their state of "emotional health". Granted this is the extreme and these are anecdotal but they illustrate the point as to who has the qualifications to make that judgment call?

Should it be a bunch of all male legislators who make a blanket one-size-fits-all decision that "emotional health" is not sufficient "justification" and by doing so ultimately condemn innocent children to be raised by mentally unstable mothers who will inflict both physical and emotional harm on the children they are forced to bear and raise?

Or should it be decided on a case by case basis by a qualified medical professional in consultation with the individual woman concerned?

 

[jwoodie]

Why don't you all stop dancing around this issue and answer the following question (YES OR NO):

Do you think 3rd trimester abortions should be legal where only the mother's "emotional health" is at risk?

What does that mean, "emotional health"?

In practice, it means she doesn't want the baby.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Why don't you all stop dancing around this issue and answer the following question (YES OR NO):

Do you think 3rd trimester abortions should be legal where only the mother's "emotional health" is at risk?

What does that mean, "emotional health"?

In practice, it means she doesn't want the baby.

It is difficult enough raising an infant when you are emotional stable. Furthermore it is grossly unfair to the infant to be placed in the hands of someone who is mentally unstable.

Would you put your own child in the care of someone who was suffering from mental problems? Yes or No?

 

[FA_Q2]

Why don't you all stop dancing around this issue and answer the following question (YES OR NO):

Do you think 3rd trimester abortions should be legal where only the mother's "emotional health" is at risk?

No. ‘Emotional’ heath is a bullshit term. IDLH, THAT is what should constitute ‘health.’

 

[FA_Q2]

What does that mean, "emotional health"?

In practice, it means she doesn't want the baby.

It is difficult enough raising an infant when you are emotional stable. Furthermore it is grossly unfair to the infant to be placed in the hands of someone who is mentally unstable.

Would you put your own child in the care of someone who was suffering from mental problems? Yes or No?

That sidesteps the entire issue.

‘Emotional’ heath is a misnomer here. There really does not need to be a fuzzy line.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Why don't you all stop dancing around this issue and answer the following question (YES OR NO):

Do you think 3rd trimester abortions should be legal where only the mother's "emotional health" is at risk?

No. ‘Emotional’ heath is a bullshit term. IDLH, THAT is what should constitute ‘health.’

Andrea Yates was suffering from a serious MENTAL health condition that made her an IDLH of her 6 children.

Ask them if they considered her "emotional health" to be a "bullshit term"?

Oh wait, you can't because she killed them all.

 

[Derideo_Te]

In practice, it means she doesn't want the baby.

It is difficult enough raising an infant when you are emotional stable. Furthermore it is grossly unfair to the infant to be placed in the hands of someone who is mentally unstable.

Would you put your own child in the care of someone who was suffering from mental problems? Yes or No?

That sidesteps the entire issue.

‘Emotional’ heath is a misnomer here. There really does not need to be a fuzzy line.

You are the one who is "sidestepping the issue" by not answering the question.

Would you want Andrea Yates raising your own children? Yes or no?

Of course you don't because you already KNOW what she did.

But what about all of the infants who are suffering from SBS because they have mothers with "emotional health" problems?

Clinical depression is a medically diagnosed health condition that is caused by an imbalance in chemicals in the brain. That is just one of many mental health diagnoses that can result in someone being "emotionally unhealthy".

Why do you refuse to deal with this REALITY?

 

[Dragonlady]

In practice, it means she doesn't want the baby.

Are you aware that "unwanted" children have higher high-school drop out rates, higher rates of criminal behaviour, lower incomes and are generally far less successful as adults than wanted children.

A child who is wanted and loved has a much better chance of success in life. It's not about giving birth to the baby, but giving him/her a good life once they are born, and the best shot at becoming a successful adult.

 

[Circe]

"Better that 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man be convicted." This lofty premise has been corrupted in the abortion debate, where thousands of late term abortions are defended on the basis that there might be a few legitimate cases among them.

Seriously, does anyone agree with this practice?

Yes. I have one word for you: Hydrocephalus.

I saw one once, who lived. They don't usually live too long. He ate crayons and couldn't talk.

Of course they can't be born normally, the head swells up so large. This happens shortly before birth, what a problem.

 

[alan1]

"Better that 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man be convicted." This lofty premise has been corrupted in the abortion debate, where thousands of late term abortions are defended on the basis that there might be a few legitimate cases among them.

Seriously, does anyone agree with this practice?

Actually, I disagree with your overall premise here: where thousands of late term abortions are defended on the basis that there might be a few legitimate cases among them

Late term abortions are rare. According to CDC, something like 92% were performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation. Only 7% were performed at 14--20 weeks' gestation, and 1% were performed at ≥21 weeks' gestation.

Given that extremely small number and the fact that late term abortions are severely restricted by law, I think it's reasonable to assume that the majority are legitimate.

I found your statistics here . This is in the same article,

From 1973 through 2008, nearly 50 million legal abortions have occurred in the U.S.

So lets do the math, 50 million times 1.3% (late term) = 650,000. That is a lot. In fact, it is more than the entire population of either Vermont or Wyoming or The District of Columbia.

 

[Derideo_Te]

In practice, it means she doesn't want the baby.

Are you aware that "unwanted" children have higher high-school drop out rates, higher rates of criminal behaviour, lower incomes and are generally far less successful as adults than wanted children.

A child who is wanted and loved has a much better chance of success in life. It's not about giving birth to the baby, but giving him/her a good life once they are born, and the best shot at becoming a successful adult.

Not to mention problems associated with malnutrition and the lack of affordable healthcare. The cost of raising a child seems to be another factor that is ignored by those who care nothing about the quality of the life of the child after it is born.

 

[AmyNation]

"Better that 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man be convicted." This lofty premise has been corrupted in the abortion debate, where thousands of late term abortions are defended on the basis that there might be a few legitimate cases among them.

Seriously, does anyone agree with this practice?

Actually, I disagree with your overall premise here: where thousands of late term abortions are defended on the basis that there might be a few legitimate cases among them

Late term abortions are rare. According to CDC, something like 92% were performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation. Only 7% were performed at 14--20 weeks' gestation, and 1% were performed at ≥21 weeks' gestation.

Given that extremely small number and the fact that late term abortions are severely restricted by law, I think it's reasonable to assume that the majority are legitimate.

I found your statistics here . This is in the same article,

From 1973 through 2008, nearly 50 million legal abortions have occurred in the U.S.

So lets do the math, 50 million times 1.3% (late term) = 650,000. That is a lot. In fact, it is more than the entire population of either Vermont or Wyoming or The District of Columbia.

There are about 13,000 abortions past 21 weeks in the US every year.


Unfortunately we don't know a lot about those women. In similar countries to us(see Australia) the #1 reason for those abortions were fetal defects. However I've also seen some stats that suggest that the US reasons are more along the lines of lack of funds and lack of abortion facilities.

I personally think all abortion past 20 weeks should be banned, except for life of mother and child.

 

[FA_Q2]

"Better that 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man be convicted." This lofty premise has been corrupted in the abortion debate, where thousands of late term abortions are defended on the basis that there might be a few legitimate cases among them.

Seriously, does anyone agree with this practice?

Actually, I disagree with your overall premise here: where thousands of late term abortions are defended on the basis that there might be a few legitimate cases among them

Late term abortions are rare. According to CDC, something like 92% were performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation. Only 7% were performed at 14--20 weeks' gestation, and 1% were performed at ≥21 weeks' gestation.

Given that extremely small number and the fact that late term abortions are severely restricted by law, I think it's reasonable to assume that the majority are legitimate.

I found your statistics here . This is in the same article,

From 1973 through 2008, nearly 50 million legal abortions have occurred in the U.S.

So lets do the math, 50 million times 1.3% (late term) = 650,000. That is a lot. In fact, it is more than the entire population of either Vermont or Wyoming or The District of Columbia.

That statistic is actually misleading though unless you determine how many of them were medically necessary.

The problem with late term abortions are the ones that are elective. There is a big difference from abortion because you are going to die (or the child is going to die) from an abortion because you no longer want to bother with a child.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Actually, I disagree with your overall premise here: where thousands of late term abortions are defended on the basis that there might be a few legitimate cases among them

Late term abortions are rare. According to CDC, something like 92% were performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation. Only 7% were performed at 14--20 weeks' gestation, and 1% were performed at ≥21 weeks' gestation.

Given that extremely small number and the fact that late term abortions are severely restricted by law, I think it's reasonable to assume that the majority are legitimate.

I found your statistics here . This is in the same article,

From 1973 through 2008, nearly 50 million legal abortions have occurred in the U.S.

So lets do the math, 50 million times 1.3% (late term) = 650,000. That is a lot. In fact, it is more than the entire population of either Vermont or Wyoming or The District of Columbia.

There are about 13,000 abortions past 21 weeks in the US every year.


Unfortunately we don't know a lot about those women. In similar countries to us(see Australia) the #1 reason for those abortions were fetal defects. However I've also seen some stats that suggest that the US reasons are more along the lines of lack of funds and lack of abortion facilities.

Doctors already know that their licenses are on the line if the perform 3rd trimester abortions. They are not going to provide one without a sound medical reason justifying it. So it is only going to happen if there are fetal defects or the health/life of the woman is in danger.

I personally think all abortion past 20 weeks should be banned, except for life of mother and child.

Right now the line is drawn at 26 weeks. The survival rate for 20 - 25 weeks is very low and brain damage rates are very high for those that do survive. Until medicine improves sufficiently to change those outcomes there doesn't seem to be much reason to alter the current limitations.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Actually, I disagree with your overall premise here: where thousands of late term abortions are defended on the basis that there might be a few legitimate cases among them

Late term abortions are rare. According to CDC, something like 92% were performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation. Only 7% were performed at 14--20 weeks' gestation, and 1% were performed at ≥21 weeks' gestation.

Given that extremely small number and the fact that late term abortions are severely restricted by law, I think it's reasonable to assume that the majority are legitimate.

I found your statistics here . This is in the same article,

From 1973 through 2008, nearly 50 million legal abortions have occurred in the U.S.

So lets do the math, 50 million times 1.3% (late term) = 650,000. That is a lot. In fact, it is more than the entire population of either Vermont or Wyoming or The District of Columbia.

That statistic is actually misleading though unless you determine how many of them were medically necessary.

The problem with late term abortions are the ones that are elective. There is a big difference from abortion because you are going to die (or the child is going to die) from an abortion because you no longer want to bother with a child.

The latter allegation is a fallacy. There is no factual basis to support 3rd trimester abortions being performed "because you no longer want to bother with a child". Reputable doctors simply won't violate their own ethics or put their medical licenses at risk by performing them without a sound justification.

 

[alan1]

There are about 13,000 abortions past 21 weeks in the US every year.

A large number in my opinion.

Unfortunately we don't know a lot about those women. In similar countries to us(see Australia) the #1 reason for those abortions were fetal defects. However I've also seen some stats that suggest that the US reasons are more along the lines of lack of funds and lack of abortion facilities.

I personally think all abortion past 20 weeks should be banned, except for life of mother and child.

I would like all abortion ended, but I know that is not realistic.

Law, medical science and the common person have all agreed that the cessation of brainwaves IS the end of life. Can we not apply this same standard to the beginning of life? If the end of brainwaves is the end of life, is not the beginning of brainwaves the beginning of life? I would posit that if brainwaves exist in a fetus, then life exists. At that point, abortion should not be allowed except under extreme circumstances.

 

[Circe]

Law, medical science and the common person have all agreed that the cessation of brainwaves IS the end of life. Can we not apply this same standard to the beginning of life? If the end of brainwaves is the end of life, is not the beginning of brainwaves the beginning of life? I would posit that if brainwaves exist in a fetus, then life exists. At that point, abortion should not be allowed except under extreme circumstances.

You do that with any abortions you may be considering for yourself.

Otherwise, it's not really your business to interfere in other people's lives.

 

[AmyNation]

I found your statistics here . This is in the same article,

So lets do the math, 50 million times 1.3% (late term) = 650,000. That is a lot. In fact, it is more than the entire population of either Vermont or Wyoming or The District of Columbia.

There are about 13,000 abortions past 21 weeks in the US every year.


Unfortunately we don't know a lot about those women. In similar countries to us(see Australia) the #1 reason for those abortions were fetal defects. However I've also seen some stats that suggest that the US reasons are more along the lines of lack of funds and lack of abortion facilities.

Doctors already know that their licenses are on the line if the perform 3rd trimester abortions. They are not going to provide one without a sound medical reason justifying it. So it is only going to happen if there are fetal defects or the health/life of the woman is in danger.

I personally think all abortion past 20 weeks should be banned, except for life of mother and child.

Right now the line is drawn at 26 weeks. The survival rate for 20 - 25 weeks is very low and brain damage rates are very high for those that do survive. Until medicine improves sufficiently to change those outcomes there doesn't seem to be much reason to alter the current limitations.

Babies have been born and lived to be healthy as early as 21 weeks. The survival rate of babies born been 22-25 weeks is now something over 50%. Yes, they have a higher rate of health issues, but they live.

Premature birth survival rates on the rise - Health News - NHS Choices

 

[Derideo_Te]

There are about 13,000 abortions past 21 weeks in the US every year.


Unfortunately we don't know a lot about those women. In similar countries to us(see Australia) the #1 reason for those abortions were fetal defects. However I've also seen some stats that suggest that the US reasons are more along the lines of lack of funds and lack of abortion facilities.

Doctors already know that their licenses are on the line if the perform 3rd trimester abortions. They are not going to provide one without a sound medical reason justifying it. So it is only going to happen if there are fetal defects or the health/life of the woman is in danger.

I personally think all abortion past 20 weeks should be banned, except for life of mother and child.

Right now the line is drawn at 26 weeks. The survival rate for 20 - 25 weeks is very low and brain damage rates are very high for those that do survive. Until medicine improves sufficiently to change those outcomes there doesn't seem to be much reason to alter the current limitations.

Babies have been born and lived to be healthy as early as 21 weeks. The survival rate of babies born been 22-25 weeks is now something over 50%. Yes, they have a higher rate of health issues, but they live.

Premature birth survival rates on the rise - Health News - NHS Choices

Here are some extracts from your link;

The main health outcomes of interest were survival to the time of hospital discharge, as well as illnesses or complications affecting the premature baby.

Illnesses and complications the researchers were interested in were those known to affect premature babies, including:

immaturity of the lungs and the need for continued oxygen
retinopathy (eye disease) of prematurity
abnormal findings on brain ultrasound scan
blood infection
necrotising enterocolitis (inflammation and/or infection of the bowel)

Looking at complete data for 2006, 3,133 births were confirmed to be between 22 and 26 weeks of pregnancy. The proportion of these babies who were alive at the start of labour ranged from 57% of the babies born at 22 weeks to 81% of the babies born at 26 weeks.
Overall, one-third of these 3,133 babies survived to the time of hospital discharge, with survival rates increasing with the age of the baby:

2% (3) of babies born at 22 weeks
19% (66) of babies born at 23 weeks
40% (178) of babies born at 24 weeks
66% (346) of babies born at 25 weeks
77% (448) of babies born at 26 weeks

When looking at illnesses in surviving premature babies in 2006, 68% (705) of survivors had lung immaturity complications and still needed to be on oxygen at 36 weeks, 13% (135) had serious brain abnormalities on ultrasound, and 16% (166) were treated for retinopathy of prematurity.

The quality of the lives of these children is obviously seriously impaired.

 

[AmyNation]

I don't dispute the quality of life. I don't consider that an issue when discussing fetal viability. They survive, and they have a chance as early as 21 weeks to live normal health lives. The law has clearly not kept up with medical science in this instance.

One of the reasons I get so angry with the ardent pro-lifers in the US is because they seem to have an all or nothing attitude. Instead of focusing efforts to change fetal viability they try to shut down abortion clinics with red tape nonsense laws that just get overturned by higher courts if passed.