Obama strongly considers withdrawing ALL troops from Afghanistan in 2014

[Synthaholic]

Oh, you must mean clearing out the mt fortresses.

Rumsfeld: Bin Laden's Mountain Fortress's - YouTube

You do know that the CIA built those caves, right?

You want to back that up with some cite sourcing? I didnt think so...

You are one dumb motherfucker.



The first time bin Laden had seen the Tora Bora caves, he had been a young mujahedeen fighter and a recent university graduate with a degree in civil engineering. It had been some 20 years before, during Washington's first Afghan war, the decade-long, C.I.A.-financed jihad of the 1980's against the Soviet occupation. Rising to more than 13,000 feet, 35 miles southwest of the provincial capital of Jalalabad, Tora Bora was a fortress of snow-capped peaks, steep valleys and fortified caves. Its miles of tunnels, bunkers and base camps, dug deeply into the steep rock walls, had been part of a C.I.A.-financed complex built for the mujahedeen.



http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/magazine/11TORABORA.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[Synthaholic]

How about Air Force Magazine?


During Afghanistan’s long war with the Soviet Union, CIA money helped build up the cave complex at Tora Bora for use by Afghan resistance fighters. Maps originally designated the area Tora Gora, but for unknown reasons CENTCOM and others redesignated it Tora Bora in December 2001.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

You do know that the CIA built those caves, right?

You want to back that up with some cite sourcing? I didnt think so...

You are one dumb motherfucker.



The first time bin Laden had seen the Tora Bora caves, he had been a young mujahedeen fighter and a recent university graduate with a degree in civil engineering. It had been some 20 years before, during Washington's first Afghan war, the decade-long, C.I.A.-financed jihad of the 1980's against the Soviet occupation. Rising to more than 13,000 feet, 35 miles southwest of the provincial capital of Jalalabad, Tora Bora was a fortress of snow-capped peaks, steep valleys and fortified caves. Its miles of tunnels, bunkers and base camps, dug deeply into the steep rock walls, had been part of a C.I.A.-financed complex built for the mujahedeen.



http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/magazine/11TORABORA.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Oh, really?

Battle of Tora Bora - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tora Bora "fortress"[edit]Tora Bora was variously described by the western media to be an impregnable cave fortress housing 2000 men complete with a hospital, a hydroelectric power plant, offices, a hotel, arms and ammunition stores, roads large enough to drive a tank into, and elaborate tunnel and ventilation systems.[13] Both the British and American press published elaborate plans of the base. When presented with such plans in an NBC interview on Meet the Press, Donald Rumsfeld, the US Secretary of Defense, said, "This is serious business, there's not one of those, there are many of those".[14][15][16]

When Tora Bora was eventually captured by the U.S. and Afghan troops, no traces of the supposed 'fortress' were found despite painstaking searches in the surrounding areas. Tora Bora turned out to be a system of small natural caves housing at most, 200 fighters. While arms and ammunition stores were found, there were no traces of the advanced facilities claimed to exist.[17][16]

In an interview published by the Public Broadcasting Service, a Staff Sergeant from the U.S. Special Forces Operational Detachment Alpha (ODA) 572, who had been in the Battle of Tora Bora described the caves:

"Again, with the caves, they weren't these crazy mazes or labyrinths of caves that they described. Most of them were natural caves. Some were supported with some pieces of wood maybe about the size of a 10-foot by 24-foot room, at the largest. They weren't real big. I know they made a spectacle out of that, and how are we going to be able to get into them? We worried about that too, because we see all these reports. Then it turns out, when you actually go up there, there's really just small bunkers, and a lot of different ammo storage is up there. – Jeff, Staff Sgt. ODA 572[18]





Try again, dullard.

 

[Synthaholic]

You want to back that up with some cite sourcing? I didnt think so...

You are one dumb motherfucker.



The first time bin Laden had seen the Tora Bora caves, he had been a young mujahedeen fighter and a recent university graduate with a degree in civil engineering. It had been some 20 years before, during Washington's first Afghan war, the decade-long, C.I.A.-financed jihad of the 1980's against the Soviet occupation. Rising to more than 13,000 feet, 35 miles southwest of the provincial capital of Jalalabad, Tora Bora was a fortress of snow-capped peaks, steep valleys and fortified caves. Its miles of tunnels, bunkers and base camps, dug deeply into the steep rock walls, had been part of a C.I.A.-financed complex built for the mujahedeen.



http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/magazine/11TORABORA.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Oh, really?

Battle of Tora Bora - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tora Bora "fortress"[edit]Tora Bora was variously described by the western media to be an impregnable cave fortress housing 2000 men complete with a hospital, a hydroelectric power plant, offices, a hotel, arms and ammunition stores, roads large enough to drive a tank into, and elaborate tunnel and ventilation systems.[13] Both the British and American press published elaborate plans of the base. When presented with such plans in an NBC interview on Meet the Press, Donald Rumsfeld, the US Secretary of Defense, said, "This is serious business, there's not one of those, there are many of those".[14][15][16]

When Tora Bora was eventually captured by the U.S. and Afghan troops, no traces of the supposed 'fortress' were found despite painstaking searches in the surrounding areas. Tora Bora turned out to be a system of small natural caves housing at most, 200 fighters. While arms and ammunition stores were found, there were no traces of the advanced facilities claimed to exist.[17][16]

In an interview published by the Public Broadcasting Service, a Staff Sergeant from the U.S. Special Forces Operational Detachment Alpha (ODA) 572, who had been in the Battle of Tora Bora described the caves:

"Again, with the caves, they weren't these crazy mazes or labyrinths of caves that they described. Most of them were natural caves. Some were supported with some pieces of wood maybe about the size of a 10-foot by 24-foot room, at the largest. They weren't real big. I know they made a spectacle out of that, and how are we going to be able to get into them? We worried about that too, because we see all these reports. Then it turns out, when you actually go up there, there's really just small bunkers, and a lot of different ammo storage is up there. – Jeff, Staff Sgt. ODA 572[18]





Try again, dullard.

Why should I try again? You didn't refute anything, idiot!

 

[TakeAStepBack]

The fortress caves that never were.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

There were no fortress caves. They were natural caves held up at best by wood posts and housed some ammo caches.



From the rest of your article cherry pick:

During Afghanistan’s long war with the Soviet Union, CIA money helped build up the cave complex at Tora Bora for use by Afghan resistance fighters. Maps originally designated the area Tora Gora, but for unknown reasons CENTCOM and others redesignated it Tora Bora in December 2001.

Few knew the complex better than bin Laden himself. A US Senate report contended that in the late 1980s, bin Laden had assisted with many of the construction projects such as building the rough road from Jalalabad to Tora Bora and supervising excavation of the connecting tunnel system within the caves.

Bin Laden made more improvements to the Tora Bora hideout after leaving Sudan for Afghanistan in 1996. He "began expanding the fortress at Tora Bora, building base camps at higher elevations for himself, his wives, and numerous children and other senior al Qaeda figures," said the Senate report. A report in The Guardian stated bin Laden "used much of his personal fortune to enlarge and equip these caves for use as a military stronghold."

All secondhand debunked information. There was nothing up there except soem natural caves used as ammo/weapon caches. It's all bullshit.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

"Again, with the caves, they weren't these crazy mazes or labyrinths of caves that they described. Most of them were natural caves. Some were supported with some pieces of wood maybe about the size of a 10-foot by 24-foot room, at the largest.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueywqUBW3oM]YOU GOT FAIL HORN'D! - YouTube[/ame]

 

[TakeAStepBack]

You do know that the CIA built those caves, right?

You want to back that up with some cite sourcing? I didnt think so...

You are one dumb motherfucker.



The first time bin Laden had seen the Tora Bora caves, he had been a young mujahedeen fighter and a recent university graduate with a degree in civil engineering. It had been some 20 years before, during Washington's first Afghan war, the decade-long, C.I.A.-financed jihad of the 1980's against the Soviet occupation. Rising to more than 13,000 feet, 35 miles southwest of the provincial capital of Jalalabad, Tora Bora was a fortress of snow-capped peaks, steep valleys and fortified caves. Its miles of tunnels, bunkers and base camps, dug deeply into the steep rock walls, had been part of a C.I.A.-financed complex built for the mujahedeen.



http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/magazine/11TORABORA.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Tora Bora was a fortress of snow-capped peaks, steep valleys and fortified caves. Its miles of tunnels, bunkers and base camps, dug deeply into the steep rock walls, had been part of a C.I.A.-financed complex built for the mujahedeen. Bin Laden had flown in dozens of bulldozers and other pieces of heavy equipment from his father's construction empire, the Saudi Binladin Group, one of the most prosperous construction companies in Saudi Arabia and throughout the Persian Gulf. According to one frequently told story, bin Laden would drive one of the bulldozers himself across the precipitous mountain peaks, constructing defensive tunnels and storage depots.

Indeed, by December 2001, when the final battle of Tora Bora took place, the cave complex had been so refined that it was said to have its own ventilation system and a power system created by a series of hydroelectric generators; bin Laden is believed to have designed the latter. Tora Bora's walls and the floors of its hundreds of rooms were finished and smooth and extended some 350 yards into the granite mountain that enveloped them.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueywqUBW3oM]YOU GOT FAIL HORN'D! - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Peter Dow]

Good idea, bring everyone home.

We can't get out of there, soon enough.

2013 would be better.

We should have started leaving after we killed OBL.

Because why exactly? Do you imagine OBL was the only enemy? Al Qaeda was a one-man band? Now we've killed OBL that's it, the enemy is no more? No-way could someone step in to become the new Al Qaeda number 1, do OBL's old job?

Peace talks and bringing the troops home without winning the war is a dumb idea.

Not being in Afghanistan didn't stop Pakistan sponsoring their terrorist proxies to do 9/11 and so what's to stop them doing it again?

Don't you think the Pakistani ISI can find another one like Bin Laden to do the same again? After all, they've still got Ayman Al-Zawahiri stashed away somewhere. Remember him, the old Al Qaeda number 2, now number 1?

(First image I posted didn't display next time I looked, so now adopting triple modular redundancy approach!)

Then where will your "brilliant" "just bring the boys home" idea have got you then, huh?

What about the Pakistani state sponsors of Al Qaeda, HG? Are you just going to leave the sponsors of terrorism alone to sponsor even more terrorists after the troops go home?

Getting OBL was a break-through in the war on terror but don't think that's it, war over, because terrorists are still coming for us and even more worryingly, the US is still paying Pakistan billions of dollars despite their duplicity and double dealing over this.

I don't see your plan to stop another 9/11 HG. Do you have a plan?

 

[JakeStarkey]

These are the people LOLberals vote for at the ballot box. They voted to INVADE Afghanistan. With the exception of one.

And excellent example above of the foolishness that the GOP has to counter when it comes to election time. People listen to that nonsense and say "where are the Pubs in this?" and don't realize that TASB and others are plants for the DNC.

 

[Peter Dow]

Liberals have been arguing that since Day 1.
But not because of your conspiracy theory.

Oh, sure. That's why they all (except 1...yep 1) voted for invading Afghanistan.

What a liar you are....then again,. You're LOLberal. It comes with the territory.

I had no problem whatsoever with invading and clearing out the camps. And actually Bush was quite reasonable with the Taliban and gave them first crack at it. They refused.

It's the occupation and nation building I had a big problem with.

The biggest problem with the occupation and nation building plan in Afghanistan was across the border, the Pakistani state was determined to tear down any Afghan nation we helped build up.

Also, Pakistan has terror training camps in Pakistan. We've not cleared those out, not stopped Pakistan building more.

The problem is we've never confronted Pakistan. Taking the equipment home via Pakistani roads and ports doesn't confront Pakistan either.

It's looks like a surrender to Pakistan, or am I wrong?

I mean, I'd like to be wrong. Be nice if there was a plan to confront Pakistan. I've got a plan to do that, to confront Pakistan, but you lot aren't mentioning any plan except withdrawal.

So is your plan surrender to Pakistan and simply go home and wait for the next 9/11 when the Pakistani ISI thinks the time is right to attack the US again for whatever demand it is they want?

What's the thinking guys?

 

[Peter Dow]

Oh, sure. That's why they all (except 1...yep 1) voted for invading Afghanistan.

What a liar you are....then again,. You're LOLberal. It comes with the territory.

I had no problem whatsoever with invading and clearing out the camps. And actually Bush was quite reasonable with the Taliban and gave them first crack at it. They refused.

It's the occupation and nation building I had a big problem with.

Oh, you must mean clearing out the mt fortresses.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJe5l_ELSA]Rumsfeld: Bin Laden's Mountain Fortress's - YouTube[/ame]

What needs to be cleared out is the Pakistani ISI, the Pakistani military intelligence agency which sponsors terrorists on behalf of the Pakistani state. The ISI's critical role in sponsoring terrorism, is documented in this British TV documentary broadcast first in 2011.

BBC Panorama's "SECRET PAKISTAN - Part 1 Double-Cross"

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSinK-dVrig]Secret Pakistan : Documentary by BBC Part 1 (Double Cross) - YouTube[/ame]

BBC Panorama's "SECRET PAKISTAN - Part 2 Backlash"

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5-lSSC9dSE]Secret Pakistan : Documentary by BBC Part 2 (Backlash) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[JakeStarkey]

No matter how bad the ISI may be, we won't be going to war: end of that.

 

[Peter Dow]

We should not be neo-con nation rebuilding because we won't put the appropriate resources into it and because we wrongly farm out essential tasks to private industry, which cares nothing except for profit.

It's not a total resource problem. The US has spent billions on this. The problem is the US has been resourcing the Taliban at the same time as resourcing our efforts to rebuild Afghanistan.

The US has given $9 billion in military aid to Pakistan, for so-called "help" in fighting the Taliban but Pakistan has secretly been spending some of that US money on resourcing the Taliban to fight our troops in Afghanistan.

So the US has been resourcing both sides in this war - our side and the side of the enemies that we have inside the Pakistani state.

If we simply quit resourcing our Pakistani enemies and start fighting them, not funding them, this war will be efficiently won.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are wrong, but I am not going to argue it further.

No more neo-con imperialism.

 

[Peter Dow]

No matter how bad the ISI may be, we won't be going to war: end of that.

Well the Pakistani ISI is at war with us. The ISI is the logistics army in the enemy's rear behind the Taliban's front line and hosting Al Qaeda's global HQ.

So instead of a war on terror, defeating the ISI masterminds of terror, you advocate what? Turn the other cheek?

Not saying that's morally wrong, turning the other cheek and all, but it would be new for the US, wouldn't it?

I don't remember too many cheeks being turned after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

These are the people LOLberals vote for at the ballot box. They voted to INVADE Afghanistan. With the exception of one.

And excellent example above of the foolishness that the GOP has to counter when it comes to election time. People listen to that nonsense and say "where are the Pubs in this?" and don't realize that TASB and others are plants for the DNC.

What are you babbling about?

 

[Peter Dow]

You are wrong, but I am not going to argue it further.

Won't or can't?

No more neo-con imperialism.

The imperialism is Pakistan's, not ours.

The ISI is tasked by Pakistani imperialists, to further Pakistan's imperial ambitions - not just into Afghanistan, where until we deposed it, Pakistan had established an imperial vassal state, under their agents, the Taliban.

The ISI also furthers Pakistan's imperial ambitions in other countries by sponsoring terrorism there - for example, to regain Bangladesh and to acquire Kashmir from India for the Pakistani empire.

We have no imperial ambitions. We had no imperial designs on Iraq.

We have delivered in Iraq its first democratic national independence, an independence denied to the Iraqis by the Saddam dictatorship and it is our intention to help Afghanistan regain its national independence.

What prevents Afghanistan becoming truly independent is the imperialism of Pakistan, as prosecuted by the Taliban with support from the Pakistani ISI.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No more neo-con imperialism that has destabilized Syria, Egypt, has made Iraq a close ally to Iran, has destabilized Afghanistan, ruined our foreign policy with Pakistan, nearly ruined our economy, and devastated our NG and AR units for a decade.

The USA cannot afford neo-conservatism. Out of Afghanistan, now.

 

[Sunni Man]

Our beloved Pres. Obama is making the right decision by leaving Afghanistan and letting our vaunted ally Pakistan police the region. ..