Obama Demagogues Immigration

[Unkotare]

obama's immigration plan, like the plans of Sanctuary cities, is predicated on one unshakable belief. The immigrant is a more valuable person than the citizen.

That seems to be a belief 'dubya' shares with the President.

 

[Dubya]

Let's get off the "amnesty" bandwagon and start talking about practical solutions to our illegal immigration problem. First, let's SECURE THE BORDER WITH A REAL FENCE. Then, let's develop a TAMPER PROOF I.D. in order to identify those who are here legally. Then, we can deal with those who are already here:

1. Require registration within a specified time period. Deport those who fail to register.
2. Issue conditional visas to those without criminal records.
3. Require self-support and payment of taxes for 10 years* WITHOUT GOVERNMENT BENEFITS.**
4. Grant permanent visas.
5. Make return to the U.S. after deportation a felony.

*This is the same waiting period as in current law. The only difference is allowing them to stay in the U.S.
**This would result in additional federal income and social security tax revenues with no increase in expenditures.

Any problems with this approach?

You can tunnel under a fence. Haven't you heard about San Diego? You people wanting a fence are just stupid. Haven't you ever climbed a fence and how hard is it to cut through one? What are we going to do put the whole military guarding a fence?

If it's a felony to return to the US, who pays to imprison them? As for 3. why not just use the same time period a legal immigrant would use to become a citizen once they get here?

What do you suggest to get the problem under control?

I've suggested a few things, but my main focus involves ways to deny jobs to illegal immigrants, after immigration reform. Off the top of my head, here are a few examples. Why can't the social security data be checked to determine if someone is paying payroll taxes from two different locations within the United States? Why can't social security numbers be checked to determine if that number was issued? Why can't they work out a better system to collect information on people who are dead and check payroll taxes against that data base? Why can't a data base of immigrants awaiting citizenship be established with photo IDs and photos in the data base to prevent someone using a false ID of another immigrant? The data base should be made available for police whenever they run across an immigrant ID. Why can't businesses like construction be checked to determine if people are working under the table? Presently, illegal immigrants gather in locations to get offers of jobs.

I'm not familiar with the program, but the Department of Motor Vehicle in my state has been checking proof of citizenship to issue driver's licenses and IDs and I believe it's from a program started by Homeland Security. Why couldn't we work out some kind of system through Motor Vehicle and Voter Registration to give IDs to all adults in America. Maybe we could get people involved in Voter Registration to run people through their paper work, like copies of their birth certificate and it wouldn't cost much to make a state ID, if the person doesn't have a driver's license. Even if the person lost their ID, the information can be found in a data base, so the person can be identified. The states could offer documentation at a premium price for a period and they would make up the cost cuts by the volume of documentation issued. A senior discount would also be nice. The idea is to get IDs for all adults. Who knows, we may be able to solve the ID problems and voter registration problems with the same effort. Since states already have a means of providing documentation and IDs, why not use those resources to their maximum potential? A state ID or driver's license can be issued in ways that a person's citizenship is determined and reported on it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Need border security as well, dubya: the GOP will not pass it without an increase in border protections.

 

[Unkotare]

I take it you aren't trying to blame me because some idiot spent over 15 pages saying the same thing and providing no evidence to support his position.

A little early to try and revise that history, don't you think? YOU got your ass handed to you because you could not meaningfully respond to the MOUNTAIN of evidence and logic shoved down your throat. You were ignorant of most pertinent facts regarding the issue (sometimes laughably so) until I educated you, and you soon found yourself without a leg to stand on. In desperation, you were reduced to repeating the same false arguments over and over only to have them shot down over and over - revealing yourself to be an un-American scumbag in the process.




You don't mind throwing innocent, loyal Americans into concentration camps, but illegal aliens? Why, you just want to share the world with your fellow man when it comes to them.

You're a disgrace.

 

[Unkotare]

They were in no mood to think of their Japanese neighbors as Americans.

Despite the fact that many of those neigbors turned out to be among the very best Americans we've ever produced.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Unkotare, you have convinced no one of anything other than that you are a hard head who got his soft butt handed to him. Within the political and military framework of the day, FDR made the only decision he could, a bad one.

Get over it.

 

[Dubya]

Dubya, give it up. The politics will require tightening of the boarder in order to get the rest. The pro-immigration reform groups in Congress do not have the votes without having to give in on this issue.

I understand the Republican condition, but I don't understand how it can be done. A fence isn't going to do it, so what else is there? Are we going to change the law and allow the military to guard the border? It's easy to say the border needs to be tightened, but coming up with suggestions that work isn't so easy.

A bounty works for me.

obama is going to push for his immigration until every body of water in the US is like Falcon Lake.

Just how much money do you think taxpayers should pay to deport 11 million illegal immigrants and give you a bounty? How many businesses would fail next year when they can't get their crops harvested? Illegal immigrants do fill some jobs that normal Americans won't do.

As far as Obama goes, he is just President now and the issue is immigration reform and not immigration. Did Bush do anything about immigration reform or Clinton and Bush Sr before him? Reagan gave amnesty but killed the foreign worker program. It should be obvious if a country has that many illegal immigrants, then it has a problem that needs to be fixed. It should be fixed in a way that benefits the economy the most, meaning not fining the illegal immigrant. If you want to fine someone, fine the employer that gave the illegal a job! Change the system so the fine for hiring an illegal immigrant is highly punitive and enough so it encourages investigation of businesses.

 

[gallantwarrior]

You are describing yourself, ever since you were trounced some time ago. You simply can't handle being told and proven that you are wrong on many issues. Your anti-government stance is silly, your arguments are worse, and your personal self-entitlement is baffling. You won't change, which is the mark of an immature personality. So be it.

I disagree about the need for Japanese Internment during WWII and some kook wants to go psycho about it? War by it's nature taxes civil liberties and sometimes tough decisions have to be made.

I take it you aren't trying to blame me because some idiot spent over 15 pages saying the same thing and providing no evidence to support his position. I've studied the military history of WWII and no one is going to convince me there wasn't a grave security problem on the west coast. It's real easy to look back that we won the war, but that wasn't the reality at the beginning of WWII. The fact is, we were out manned and out gunned at that time.

It's certainly regretable that Japanese Americans were put in internment camps, but it was necessary to secure the west coast to provide major repairs to our ships. I don't fault a President for making such a tough decision.

The decision was partly based on safety. Americans in 1944 weren't the same Americans we have today. There was no altar of multiculturalism, nor was there a communal worship of diversity. Those Japanese Americans were at the non-existent mercy of their American neighbors. They were in no mood to think of their Japanese neighbors as Americans.

And unlike German and Italian immigrants, the Japanese were easy to spot. It was strictly racial and had nothing to do with safety.

 

[Dubya]

I disagree about the need for Japanese Internment during WWII and some kook wants to go psycho about it? War by it's nature taxes civil liberties and sometimes tough decisions have to be made.

I take it you aren't trying to blame me because some idiot spent over 15 pages saying the same thing and providing no evidence to support his position. I've studied the military history of WWII and no one is going to convince me there wasn't a grave security problem on the west coast. It's real easy to look back that we won the war, but that wasn't the reality at the beginning of WWII. The fact is, we were out manned and out gunned at that time.

It's certainly regretable that Japanese Americans were put in internment camps, but it was necessary to secure the west coast to provide major repairs to our ships. I don't fault a President for making such a tough decision.

The decision was partly based on safety. Americans in 1944 weren't the same Americans we have today. There was no altar of multiculturalism, nor was there a communal worship of diversity. Those Japanese Americans were at the non-existent mercy of their American neighbors. They were in no mood to think of their Japanese neighbors as Americans.

And unlike German and Italian immigrants, the Japanese were easy to spot. It was strictly racial and had nothing to do with safety.

It was a west coast thing and that speaks of security and not racism. A Japanese on the east coast couldn't report where the Saratoga was being repaired and few on the east coast were interned. German and Italian nationals from the west coast were also interned. Suspects on the east coasts were forbidden to get near sensitive areas, but generally were allowed their freedom and that included foreign enemy nationals. You need to do some research.

Why don't you people start a thread about it in the proper forum, if you are so interested in this subject? The internment order was around Feb, 1942. I don't recall evidence of my grandparents and parents being much different on the issue of multiculturalism than the people of today. There were plenty of people back then and afterwards who were very pissed off with Japan, but I recall products from Japan sold in stores and "Made in Japan" meant it was generally worthless and cheap. You'd be lucky to get the toy home before it breaks into pieces.

 

[Unkotare]

You'd be lucky to get the toy home before it breaks into pieces.

Like all of your failed, un-American arguments for defending FDR's concentration camps.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You'd be lucky to get the toy home before it breaks into pieces.

Like all of your failed, un-American arguments for defending FDR's concentration camps.

Your use of present-ism terms like "concentration camps" today has a far different concept than it did in 1942. You know it, and you know you are wrong to use the term in today's terminology.

The political world of West Coast America in 1942 force FDR into a bad decision, which was one that you would have made in the same situation, Unkotare.

 

[Borillar]

Let's get off the "amnesty" bandwagon and start talking about practical solutions to our illegal immigration problem. First, let's SECURE THE BORDER WITH A REAL FENCE. Then, let's develop a TAMPER PROOF I.D. in order to identify those who are here legally. Then, we can deal with those who are already here:

1. Require registration within a specified time period. Deport those who fail to register.
2. Issue conditional visas to those without criminal records.
3. Require self-support and payment of taxes for 10 years* WITHOUT GOVERNMENT BENEFITS.**
4. Grant permanent visas.
5. Make return to the U.S. after deportation a felony.

*This is the same waiting period as in current law. The only difference is allowing them to stay in the U.S.
**This would result in additional federal income and social security tax revenues with no increase in expenditures.

Any problems with this approach?

The Great Wall of China didn't work to keep out the Mongols. A "Great Wall of America" won't keep out the Mexicans.

How would you make a tamper proof ID? Implant RFID tags on everyone at birth? Tatoo SSN's on people's foreheads? Barcodes?

They are coming here for jobs. Strictly enforce employment laws and punish businesses who hire illegals.

Other than that, I don't have a problem with deporting folks who are here illegally or under false pretenses.

 

[Dubya]

Let's get off the "amnesty" bandwagon and start talking about practical solutions to our illegal immigration problem. First, let's SECURE THE BORDER WITH A REAL FENCE. Then, let's develop a TAMPER PROOF I.D. in order to identify those who are here legally. Then, we can deal with those who are already here:

1. Require registration within a specified time period. Deport those who fail to register.
2. Issue conditional visas to those without criminal records.
3. Require self-support and payment of taxes for 10 years* WITHOUT GOVERNMENT BENEFITS.**
4. Grant permanent visas.
5. Make return to the U.S. after deportation a felony.

*This is the same waiting period as in current law. The only difference is allowing them to stay in the U.S.
**This would result in additional federal income and social security tax revenues with no increase in expenditures.

Any problems with this approach?

The Great Wall of China didn't work to keep out the Mongols. A "Great Wall of America" won't keep out the Mexicans.

How would you make a tamper proof ID? Implant RFID tags on everyone at birth? Tatoo SSN's on people's foreheads? Barcodes?

They are coming here for jobs. Strictly enforce employment laws and punish businesses who hire illegals.

Other than that, I don't have a problem with deporting folks who are here illegally or under false pretenses.

You could make a photo ID with the photos in an online data base to check against. Only an identical twin could beat that system. A cop coming across such an ID could make an instant check, so a fake ID wouldn't have it's photo in the data base.

 

[RoadVirus]

There is a bipartisan bill floating around. I think Obama might not like it because it states that those here illegally cannot have access to our welfare system.

Obama doesn't like it because it has the words "mandatory enforcement" in it. That, and the Republicans support it too, which means he can't bash away at the GOP and drag out the race card.

 

[RoadVirus]

Right...we need to kiss their Brown asses and pander to their every whim! And the rest of us? Too fucking bad!

Wtf does it matter what color their asses are?

Some people are more particular of the asses they kiss than you are.

But seriously, RoadVirus is a complete bigot who only sees ethnicity as the issue.

The Dumbos and news hacks are making ethnicity the issue. They've been making it the issue since the day after election night. They go on and on about "Republicans need the Hispanic vote", "Republicans need to reach out to the Hispanic community" etc.

 

[Dubya]

Wtf does it matter what color their asses are?

Some people are more particular of the asses they kiss than you are.

But seriously, RoadVirus is a complete bigot who only sees ethnicity as the issue.

The Dumbos and news hacks are making ethnicity the issue. They've been making it the issue since the day after election night. They go on and on about "Republicans need the Hispanic vote", "Republicans need to reach out to the Hispanic community" etc.

If the Republican Party wants to ever gain power in the future, they can't have the extremists control their agenda. They need to stop pissing off hugh groups of people and start having a bigger tent. The people who most strongly object to current Republican policies are Republicans. The days of the extremists driving moderates out of their party are over and more moderate Republicans want to set the agenda.

What the hell is wrong with having some compassion for an illegal immigrant? If I was in their shoes, I probably would do the same thing, if the opportunity presented itself. Why can't right-wingers think like that and stop putting all the blame on them and never blaming the people who hire them? The employers broke the law too and since Reagan's days had to fill out forms proving their employees were citizens.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Guess what, guys? Get over it, because we are going to have to compromise on this, so both the GOP and the Dems are going to beat their chests on their "victories".

It's the right thing for America, for our citizens, for the future.

 

[Unkotare]

What the hell is wrong with having some compassion for an illegal immigrant? If I was in their shoes, I probably would do the same thing, if the opportunity presented itself. Why can't right-wingers think like that and stop putting all the blame on them and never blaming the people who hire them? The employers broke the law too and since Reagan's days had to fill out forms proving their employees were citizens.

You are a shameless fucking hypocrite.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Bleeding hearts like Unkotare on the right are going to have live with the facts that immigration reform is coming.

What we all can do is work together to make it work for all of us.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Tighten border security so the flow is a trickle.

Make business and employment law so tight that violators by boss and employee is incredibly painful.

A reasonable road to citizenship.

You could establish voter ID cards that's obtained through a social security number along with a government issued form of photo ID as proof of US citizenship. That's a guaranteed way to see who is illegal or not. Checks can be made by police during a law or traffic violation (a additional measure that goes right along with the routine check for warrants).

The whole argument that says "we can give them this amnesty route to becoming US citizens THEN if we find any illegals deport them", doesn't work. We gave hispanics their citizenship back in '83 and look where we are today, going over the same issues, talking about the SAME problems. You NEED to seal up the borders first. Install a concrete wall as well as electrified fences with high voltage warnings in Spanish. Allow states the ability to budget for patrolling their own borders. If we can budget for Obamacare and military spending, we can fund our borders, more ICE agents, and added support to crack down on border crossings.

Stop with the incentives of school assistance from the state (no taxpayer, state incentives towards assisting illegals), stop issuing them drivers licenses. Give them special work visas with a photo that allows them temporary driving privileges. An alternative to the voter ID is a photo work visa ID, that informs the authorities (should they get pulled over for a violation) that they hold only a temporary residence inside the United States.

What we really need are stricter regulations aimed at stopping the flow of illegals coming into this country, not a "quick fix", quick pathway to citizenship.