Obama Activates 50 year old Aircraft to Fight ISIL

[Daryl Hunt]

Just a quick note, IR, I visited your world and didn't care for it anymore than you do. But someone has to do it. Only once has an AC had the chance to accept a surrender and that nearing the end of WWII where P-47s pounded a German Armor group so bad that they tried to surrender inmass. Someone needs to be on the ground to accept that flag of surrender. You can't surrender to an Fixed Wing Fighter. Maybe you could surrender to an AH-64 but not a fast mover. But your world is completely different. It's dirty, too hot, too cold, too wet and Dominoes won't deliver. And to think, these days, you would still voluteer for it. Not me. Well, until you can have all combat situations on a Tahiti Beach.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Hey Daryl, I see you are still fighting the war of words. I have read this exchange and once again see and understand the logic you present. As a grunt, my position is that this pissing contest as to what aircraft will do and can't do, is getting very old. If the Air Force has or had a defensible position involving CAS it would be an important subject. Since the Air Force has no position nor desire to be involved in CAS the subject should not even exist. It would not take a hell of a lot to assign CAS to the Army and Marine Corp and leave the Navy way out there with the Air Force. There are numerous aircraft, both old and new which would do a fantastic CAS job and the OV10 is one example. And you are 100% correct, the big and ugly A10 was designed with the hoards of Soviet armor in mind. It would have performed poorly in Viet Nam and been of little value other than making holes in the Ho Chi Min Super Hiway. Hardly the operating ground for massed Soviet armor.

Were the powers to be, intrested in the individual soldier, the Army and Marine Corps would have that mission and would be equipped with a turbo propped, muti engined, aircraft with an extended loiter capability, with an air speed in the 300 mph ability. It would be armed with a .50 cal minigun, a 7.62 cal minigun, carry 100 lb bombs and air to ground rockets. It should be capable of in flight refueling from the CH47 helicopter or it's replacement should one ever be designed. The Army and Marine Corp versions would be interchangeable. At that point, the Air Force and Navy could "go to hell' while playing the "fast mover" game which is of so much importance to the average "grunt'. As a 'grunt' I could not care less about, "fast, star wars, ICBM, travel in outer space, astronaut, aircraft toilet, starry eyed horse shit". We want and need slow fly! My concern is my muddy hole and preventing snuffy from the other side from moving in! Having a few AH64 Apache's in the air helps also. Knowing that a few batteries of 105, 155, 8 inch artillery is available is nice also. Multiple launch rocket systems included. Give the ground forces what they require and let the "Super Forces" play their "Wild Blue Yonder" games. After all, grunts do not need them and we do not play in that space. Grunts have their own sand box, as it should be.

Real life is one thing, video game warfare is another. And you are absolutely correct Daryl, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. All of you sap suckers who challenge that truth, piss off!

First of all, the Army does have one hell of a CAS platform as long as you have either a tanker truck or air to air refueler not far. The AH-64E is one hell of a CAS platform. Like the AF is doing with it's A10, they are always searching for a mission but never quite finding it. So they use it for missions it was never designed for but can do. So some idiot in the AF decided that the capabilities in the olf A-1 wasn't needed since the next "Great" war it wouldn't be needed.

I agree that it should be an Army function. But until they start using the Apache for that mission I don't see any need to worry about it. You Grunts should worry about it but you don't make the doctrines. It's as much an Army's failure as it is the AF.

I remember the old OV-1 Mohawk. It originally came out with enough firepower to do CAS. And it's range was quite good. And there are plenty of them in boneyards since it was in service until 1997. Another good choice like the OV-10 is. Put in fir Scrap because it wouldn't be used for the "Great" next war that never came. The next series of wars, the OV-1 would be priceless. If Obama were to order them back into service it would be a GOOD thing. Ask the Marines that recognize what a 50 year old bird can do.

Wow, IR, where did you find the outer covering to post a stealth message. Don't let China know or they might use it on their Stealth Flops.

 

[I amso IR]

You won't get an argument from me. But the fact remains, the USAF is stung with the "wild blue" bug and the Army and Marines have the "mud bug" to deal with. I respect the hell out of the guys in Blue and what they do. The AH64 is certainly capable and strong. Were it to be used in conjunction with the Mohawk or (and) OV10 would be a classic marriage of close in support and service. It has been withheld from the Army by the "we own the air" doctrine of the USAF. It is long past time to give the job to the ground forces. Money allocated to the Air Force, to do the job, should be taken from them and used by the Army. Every Army Combat Division should have it's own CAS air arm organic to it's structure. And the problem is not all Air Force. Army Combat Commanders hate the idea of Army Aviation saving their bacon. It is time to clean up the entire mess, send those packing who do not accept change, and promote those who do. For the sake of survival, it needs to be done. Any knucklehead who thinks the day of the battlefield is over needs to be sent home. The "do what is necessary to win" attitude is supreme and if one cannot accept that fact, don't go away mad, just go. Good talkin with you Daryl. Keep the faith, and stay strong. I just sent my Congressman an email and bitched him out about this topic.

 

[longknife]

Okay guys, this has been an interesting thread but the back and forth is getting old. I can remember when the Army had the third largest compliment of aircraft behind the USAF and the USSR. They also had the 4th largest compliment of boats.

All that is over and it's time to move on. Thanks for the info.

 

[mudwhistle]

The US has been using B-52's for over 60 years and I read some were that the military doesn't plan on retiring them until 2050. The M2 .50 cal machine gun has been around for 80 years. If it gets the job done use it.

The Military has a big problem with shiny new things spending trillions on unproven platforms and ignoring the reliable hardware.

50 years ago they made shit right.

 

[I amso IR]

One other point you brought up. With reference to ground cover and not knowing an unfriendly was 10 ft away. You are so right! The A10 would have been a disaster in RVN. The AH1 did the job very well as he had time and capability to hover and see exactly where everyone was. The UH1 saved more lives in that role tahn even the Army knows. Had it been armed and armored it would have done even better. The UH1 and AH1 drivers were a tough bunch who gave it all to be in the mud, where they were needed. You know that I support the F35 as you do, for it's designed mission of keeping the enemy honest and the fleet safe and the air space open. But I will never consider it a CAS platform. It is simply too much for the job. And in all truth it will be to busy taking care of the "wild blue". Best regards buddy.

 

[williepete]

Okay guys, this has been an interesting thread but the back and forth is getting old. I can remember when the Army had the third largest compliment of aircraft behind the USAF and the USSR. They also had the 4th largest compliment of boats.

All that is over and it's time to move on. Thanks for the info.

longknife,

Thanks for the thread. It's been testy but worthwhile. I remember arguing this point over beers in South Korea back in the 80's. It's a fascinating discussion that will only end when war is over which means long after we're all dead and buried.

If the "CAS Guys" are anywhere close, we aught to get together for beers and discussions while the girls go out and have fun and laugh at us. If we CAS Guys are too far away, we should think about a conference call once a month or so or Skype one to one. I'd also like to bring in a little more historical perspective like the CAS mistakes the USAAF and USA made in WW2. We're on the verge of making the same mistakes as we go forward.

I see most CAS discussions stuck in Vietnam. We're long past that era. I'm in touch with many returning vets from the ME and their CAS insights put ours to shame.


What do y'all think? Who's up for it?

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Okay guys, this has been an interesting thread but the back and forth is getting old. I can remember when the Army had the third largest compliment of aircraft behind the USAF and the USSR. They also had the 4th largest compliment of boats.

All that is over and it's time to move on. Thanks for the info.

longknife,

Thanks for the thread. It's been testy but worthwhile. I remember arguing this point over beers in South Korea back in the 80's. It's a fascinating discussion that will only end when war is over which means long after we're all dead and buried.

If the "CAS Guys" are anywhere close, we aught to get together for beers and discussions while the girls go out and have fun and laugh at us. If we CAS Guys are too far away, we should think about a conference call once a month or so or Skype one to one. I'd also like to bring in a little more historical perspective like the CAS mistakes the USAAF and USA made in WW2. We're on the verge of making the same mistakes as we go forward.

I see most CAS discussions stuck in Vietnam. We're long past that era. I'm in touch with many returning vets from the ME and their CAS insights put ours to shame.


What do y'all think? Who's up for it?

Actually, we are right back to it. We needed CAS then like we do now. The OVs grew out of this idea. But placing an O in front of the designation doesn't make it an OV. The Mohawk was armed and there were some real complaints about it calling the problem in AFTER they dealt with it themselves. Same went for the OV-10 when it packed 4 (yes countem) miniguns. For CAS, the Mini is probably a better gun (if you load enough of them) than any other. At 4000 rounds a minute times 4, that a lot of concentrated fire power.

Neither the OV-1 or OV-10 were just for Observation. Those two were covered by the OV-1 and O-2 that weren't normally armed. Both were used in Vietnam and the O-1 was used in WWII and Korea.

 

[williepete]

Same went for the OV-10 when it packed 4 (yes countem) miniguns. For CAS, the Mini is probably a better gun (if you load enough of them) than any other. At 4000 rounds a minute times 4, that a lot of concentrated fire power.

Daryl, you are consistently wrong in your facts and you consistently don't show an understanding of tactics. Focusing on the tool and the tool alone is myopic. The tool is a small part of the whole system.

The standard gun installation was four 7.62 mm M60C machine guns in sponsons. Not miniguns. With provisions for a gun pod on the centerline station. The gun pod is/was extremely limited in ammo capacity.
Boeing: Historical Snapshot: OV-10 Bronco Multimission Aircraft

The 7.62 is effective with one huge drawback: You have to put the aircraft and its crew over the threat. When I flew the OA-37B, using the minigun was a hoot but from a tactical point of view, it would have been very dangerous to employ. You fail in your job if you don't bring your aircraft back to use again.

30mm HEI is far more effective and you have a stand off range of well over a mile. I fired HEI at a range set up in Alaska at over 3 miles away with excellent effect. Each round is the equivalent of a hand grenade and a short squirt can be delivered with pinpoint accuracy. With 1,350 rounds of HEI, you've got around 45 short "squirts" per aircraft delivered from a safe distance.

I've used both. 30mm HEI is superior tactically and in effectiveness .

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Same went for the OV-10 when it packed 4 (yes countem) miniguns. For CAS, the Mini is probably a better gun (if you load enough of them) than any other. At 4000 rounds a minute times 4, that a lot of concentrated fire power.

Daryl, you are consistently wrong in your facts and you consistently don't show an understanding of tactics. Focusing on the tool and the tool alone is myopic. The tool is a small part of the whole system.

No, I am correct. If you show up with the wrong loadout you just as well be flying an O-1

The standard gun installation was four 7.62 mm M60C machine guns in sponsons. Not miniguns. With provisions for a gun pod on the centerline station. The gun pod is/was extremely limited in ammo capacity.
Boeing: Historical Snapshot: OV-10 Bronco Multimission Aircraft

I have seen (up close and personal) more than a few loadouts on the OV-10. Depending on the model depends on the capability of the loadout. While the OV-10D+ had the capability carry 4 minis, I have seen a few carrying 2. I have also seen it with the 20mm without the minis or the M-60C. The one with the 20mm is definately the D+. The A could not carry any more than the rockets, fuel tanks and 2 7.62s (. It could be either the 7.62 M-60 or the M134.) Whether you loaded out with an M-60 or an M-61 or a M134 on the D+ was optional. This was when I was turning a wrench on them during the Vietnam War.

The 7.62 is effective with one huge drawback: You have to put the aircraft and its crew over the threat. When I flew the OA-37B, using the minigun was a hoot but from a tactical point of view, it would have been very dangerous to employ. You fail in your job if you don't bring your aircraft back to use again.

Yes, you have to be closer but at about a mile, you can open up with your 7.62 and you are still well out of range for the AK or 7.65 Russian and Chinese rifles. You don't get the choice to change weapons loudouts in the air. You go home with the gal that you came in with to the dance.[/QUOTE]

30mm HEI is far more effective and you have a stand off range of well over a mile. I fired HEI at a range set up in Alaska at over 3 miles away with excellent effect. Each round is the equivalent of a hand grenade and a short squirt can be delivered with pinpoint accuracy. With 1,350 rounds of HEI, you've got around 45 short "squirts" per aircraft delivered from a safe distance.

I've used both. 30mm HEI is superior tactically and in effectiveness .

The 30mm gun pod came much later and MOST OV-10s were already out of the inventory by then. Oh, I agree it's a much more affective weapon but when you do a loadout you may have to go with lighter guns. While the OV-37 (A-37) can carry one the OV-10 could carry much more weight and had the proper rails to carry quite a mixed load. Your OV-37 is a completely different bird.

 

[williepete]

Daryl, you are making stuff up again.

Broncos were stationed at the 507th Tactical Air Control Wing at Shaw AFB when I was there on my first tour. Drank with many of their pilots and crew chiefs.

The Bronco was designed for and built with 4 M60 machine guns with a total of 2,000 rounds of ammo. The SUU-11A minigun pod was the only way to get a minigun on the Bronco. It took up the center weapons station and carried only 1500 rounds--hardly worth the trouble, weight and drag of carrying a minigun.

The Mark 4 20mm gun pod was extremely heavy and only carried 750 rounds--again, hardly worth the trouble, weight and drag of carrying a Gatling gun.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Daryl, you are making stuff up again.

Broncos were stationed at the 507th Tactical Air Control Wing at Shaw AFB when I was there on my first tour. Drank with many of their pilots and crew chiefs.

The Bronco was designed for and built with 4 M60 machine guns with a total of 2,000 rounds of ammo. The SUU-11A minigun pod was the only way to get a minigun on the Bronco. It took up the center weapons station and carried only 1500 rounds--hardly worth the trouble, weight and drag of carrying a minigun.

The Mark 4 20mm gun pod was extremely heavy and only carried 750 rounds--again, hardly worth the trouble, weight and drag of carrying a Gatling gun.

Nice response to support unsupportable views. YOu know a guy who knows a guy whose 4th cousin knows........

I think we have seen enough. I'll let you stew in your own juices.

Have a Nice Day.