Nuclear meltdown in Japan reactor?

[Ravi]

Or California?

And no, they haven't fixed the cooling systems, yet.

Japanese official says pumping system caused nuclear plant blast - CNN.com

 

[martybegan]

The freezniks are going to come out of their mommie's closet that they've been in since the 1980's claiming that nuclear power (once the salvation of mankind) will kill us all... again.

A freak disaster and suddenly, it's Malthusian Time! Break out the Pinwheels, Mirrors and Moonshine! It's time to wear hemp and live in grass huts while hunting and gathering again.

Its' not a "freak" disaster, sport.

It was an earthquake in a place where earthquakes are a well known, well understood and completely NORMAL event.

Obviously the safegards put into place to deal with this earthquake and Tsuami just weren't good enough.

The solution isn't

Break out the Pinwheels, Mirrors and Moonshine! It's time to wear hemp and live in grass huts while hunting and gathering againMake those safeguards better.

it is to make even better safeguards.

It might behoove mankind NOT to put nuclear plants in active eathquake zones, too, don't you think?

I actually agree that building nuclear reactors in earthquake zones is not such a great idea. However, how bad an idea is likely to be known soon. So far Japanese authorities seem confident that the containment building will be the big problem, not a Chernobyl type problem. Given the catastrophe they are operating under, if they are correct, I expect nuclear power will become more prevalent not less, outside of earthquake zones.

The problem is that a whole lot of the world is in an Earthquake prevalent zone, plus the determination of what areas are prone to earthquakes is part science and part guesswork.

The problem they have is more of a Three Mile Island problem, not a chernobyl problem, as the primary safety mechanism, a SCRAM when the earthquake hit, worked just fine.

If the core issue is the lack of auxillary power, as the plant is on the coast, my bet is that the tsunami probably damaged the diesel generators, not the original earthquake itself.

They other key difference between this and chernobyl is the time factor, here at least the staff has time to figure out what to do. also note the precautions the authorites are takingm as opposed to the soviets, who ignored it for as long as possible.

My word of advice is to take caution with what you hear in the media. The need for NOW NOW NOW news can lead to misleading information, and outright falsehoods.

 

[Annie]

I take it they have not restored the cooling systems yet? Does anyone know?

Maybe they have:

Residents near nuclear plant told to evacuate - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Residents near nuclear plant told to evacuate

Updated Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:32am AEDT
Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant

An emergency core-cooling unit has reportedly been activated at Fukushima nuclear plant (GreenPacks.org)

* Related Story: Japan ablaze after quake; no radiation leaks
* Related Story: Earthquake largest ever to hit Japan
* Related Story: Key facts: Earthquakes in Japan

Authorities have urged 2,000 residents living near a nuclear power plant in Fukushima to evacuate after the biggest earthquake in Japan's history hit the region.

The prefectural government issued the evacuation advice for residents in a two-kilometre radius of the No. 2 reactor of the Fukushima No. 1 plant operated by Tokyo Electric Power Co.

Kyodo News reported earlier that an emergency core-cooling unit had been activated at the plant after a power failure.

The World Nuclear Association, the main nuclear industry body, said it understood the situation at Japan's Fukushima was under control, and water was being pumped into its cooling system.

The association said a back-up battery power system had been brought online after about an hour, and begun pumping water back into the cooling system, where the water level had been falling.

The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) earlier said they had received information from Japan that there is a "heightened state of alert at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant".

"The IAEA is seeking further details on the situation at Fukushima Daiichi and other nuclear power plants and research reactors, including information on off-site and on-site electrical power supplies, cooling systems and the condition of the reactor buildings," it said.

Japan's prime minister Naoto Kan had already declared a state of atomic power emergency.

But Mr Kan said no radiation leaks have been detected at or near nuclear power plants, and the declaration is so authorities can easily implement emergency relief measures...

 

[editec]

Just heard on NPR.

AT least one of the reactors has leaked radioactive material.

Authorities say its no big deal...yet.

 

[Mini 14]

Japan now passing out iodine, which is apparently an indication that there has been a radiation leak.

 

[Annie]

Japan now passing out iodine, which is apparently an indication that there has been a radiation leak.

They probably should. They know there has been some release:

UPDATE 1-Japan may hand out iodine near nuclear plants-IAEA | Reuters

Iodone can be used to protect against radioactive exposure

* Japan told IAEA it is checking condition of reactor core

(Adds quotes, background)

VIENNA, March 12 (Reuters) - Japanese authorities have told the U.N.'s atomic watchdog they are making preparations to distribute iodine to people living near nuclear power plants affected by Friday's earthquake, the Vienna-based agency said.

Iodine can be used to help protect the body from radioactive exposure.

In Japan on Saturday, radiation leaked from a damaged nuclear reactor after an explosion blew the roof off in the wake of the massive earthquake, but the government insisted that radiation levels were low.

Japan's Jiji news agency later said three workers suffered radiation exposure near the Fukushima nuclear plant.

The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the U.N. nuclear body, said Japanese authorities had informed it of the explosion and that they were "assessing the condition of the reactor core".

Japan expanded the evacuation zone around the plant, Fukushima Daiichi, and also that of the nearby Fukushima Daini nuclear power plant.

"The authorities also say they are making preparations to distribute iodine to residents in the area of both the plants," the IAEA said in a statement.

"The IAEA has reiterated its offer of technical assistance to Japan, should the government request this," it said. (Reporting by Fredrik Dahl; Editing by Louise Ireland)

 

[Old Rocks]

Cesium detected. Not at all a good sign.

 

[Zoom-boing]

I worked as an investigator for the Presidential Commission on the Accident at Three Mile Island, 32 years ago, and a few months studying the plumbing TMI’s Unit 2, which is actually younger than the errant Japanese reactor, gives me a very healthy respect for the danger in Japan.


That Japanese reactor shut down automatically within seconds of the earthquake, the idea being that dropping the thermal load (stopping the nuclear reaction and cooling-down the reactor) would minimize risk overall from a huge plumbing system that was likely compromised and vulnerable. Radiation and the passage of time conspire to make pipes brittle and aftershocks make brittle pipes break. Not good.

The 10 other reactors behaved as expected, but this unit didn’t. Once the reactor was no longer making steam to drive a turbine and generate electricity the plant was supposed to fire-up diesel generators to make the power needed to keep coolant pumps running. Only the diesels wouldn’t start. It can take up to seven days, you see, to get such a reactor down to where it can survive without circulating coolant. With the diesels out (under water perhaps?) the plant relied on batteries to run the pumps — batteries good for only eight hours.


Tokyo Electric Power Company isn’t saying much. Utilities tend not to and Japanese utilities are notoriously secretive. But we got a clue to what’s happening from U. S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, of all people, who remarked that the U. S. military was delivering “coolant” to the stricken reactor.


“Coolant?” wondered aloud all the CNN and Fox News nuclear experts looking for a lede for their stories. “What is she talking about, coolant?” This is a boiling water reactor and the coolant is water. The U. S. Air Force isn’t needed to export water to Japan.


This shows the limits of cable news experts and maybe experts in general, because Hillary isn’t the kind of person to choose the wrong words. She said “coolant” and she meant “coolant.” Though she may not have known she was saying so, she also meant the reactor was dead and will never be restarted.


A boiling water reactor does just what it sounds like — it boils water to make steam that drives a turbine generator. This is as opposed to a pressurized water reactor that uses the nuclear reaction to heat a coolant that never really boils because it is under high pressure, then sends that coolant through a heat exchanger which heats water to make steam to drive the generator. Boiling water reactors are simpler, cheaper, but generally aren’t made anymore because they are perceived as being less safe. That’s because the exotic coolant in the pressurized water reactor can contain boric acid which absorbs neutrons and can help (or totally) control the nuclear reaction. You can’t use boric acid or any other soluble boron-laced neutron absorbers in a boiling water reactor because doing so would contaminate both the cooling system and the environment.


That’s why the experts didn’t expect it because they are still thinking of how the plant can be saved, but it can’t be.


Though the boiling water reactor has already been turned off by inserting neutron-absorbing control rods all the way into the core, adding boric acid or, more likely, sodium polyborate would turn the reactor off-er — more off than off — which could come in really handy in the event of a subsequent coolant loss, which reportedly has already happened. But that’s a $1 billion kill switch that most experts wouldn’t think to pull.

I’m guessing the US Navy delivered a load of sodium polyborate from some nuclear aircraft carrier reactor supply room in the Pacific Fleet. Its use indicates that the nuclear threat is even worse than presently being portrayed in the news. Tokyo Electric Power Company has probably given-up any hope of keeping those cooling pumps on after the batteries fail. Eventually they’ll vent the now boron-laced coolant to the atmosphere to keep containment pressures under control.

Sodium polyborate, by the way, is something you might use around the house, since it is the active ingredient in most flea and tick treatments.

An earthquake with such loss of life is bad enough, but Japan has also just lost 20 percent of its electric generating capacity. And I’ll go out on a limb here and predict that none of those 11 reactors will re-enter service again, they’ve been so compromised.

I, Cringely » Blog Archive » Flea powder may be saving lives in Japan - Cringely on technology

 

[Big Fitz]

The freezniks are going to come out of their mommie's closet that they've been in since the 1980's claiming that nuclear power (once the salvation of mankind) will kill us all... again.

A freak disaster and suddenly, it's Malthusian Time! Break out the Pinwheels, Mirrors and Moonshine! It's time to wear hemp and live in grass huts while hunting and gathering again.

Its' not a "freak" disaster, sport.

It was an earthquake in a place where earthquakes are a well known, well understood and completely NORMAL event.

Obviously the safegards put into place to deal with this earthquake and Tsuami just weren't good enough.

The solution isn't

Break out the Pinwheels, Mirrors and Moonshine! It's time to wear hemp and live in grass huts while hunting and gathering againMake those safeguards better.

it is to make even better safeguards.

It might behoove mankind NOT to put nuclear plants in active eathquake zones, too, don't you think?

yes yes... not a freak disaster. 9.1 earthquakes, plus tsunamis and dozens of aftershocks that are solid earthquakes unto themselves happen every few months.

No, this was a FREAK OCCURRENCE. Those plants have survived hundreds if not thousands of earthquakes already. That being said, this is a horrible accident that will have big repercussions on Japanese infrastructure and economy (positive and negative). Now that the windows are smashed people can be hired to fix them.

 

[boedicca]

They are probably having a water leak, not a meltdown. Water is only used for heat exchange, not for reactor control

That said, a major water leak from one of those places is not a good thing. The water from one of these places is very poisonous.

...

That said, this is nothing like Chernobyl. And they will be doing their best to get power back to the place to keep the pumps moving water until things stabilize.

Most of the news I see on this is from usual freaks being freaky. People in the know are busy

This is an important distinction.

Chernobyl had graphite as a neutron moderator - the Japanese reactors use water.

Graphite burns, which is why the Chernobyl nuclear radiation spread over thousands of miles. The water version may melt, but it won't spread like that.

 

[martybegan]

The freezniks are going to come out of their mommie's closet that they've been in since the 1980's claiming that nuclear power (once the salvation of mankind) will kill us all... again.

A freak disaster and suddenly, it's Malthusian Time! Break out the Pinwheels, Mirrors and Moonshine! It's time to wear hemp and live in grass huts while hunting and gathering again.

Its' not a "freak" disaster, sport.

It was an earthquake in a place where earthquakes are a well known, well understood and completely NORMAL event.

Obviously the safegards put into place to deal with this earthquake and Tsuami just weren't good enough.

The solution isn't

Break out the Pinwheels, Mirrors and Moonshine! It's time to wear hemp and live in grass huts while hunting and gathering againMake those safeguards better.

it is to make even better safeguards.

It might behoove mankind NOT to put nuclear plants in active eathquake zones, too, don't you think?

yes yes... not a freak disaster. 9.1 earthquakes, plus tsunamis and dozens of aftershocks that are solid earthquakes unto themselves happen every few months.

No, this was a FREAK OCCURRENCE. Those plants have survived hundreds if not thousands of earthquakes already. That being said, this is a horrible accident that will have big repercussions on Japanese infrastructure and economy (positive and negative). Now that the windows are smashed people can be hired to fix them.

Its accidents like this that lead to further development of safety systems in any industrial/power generating situation. Just look at the airline industry as an example. All the safety systems and improvements in reliability did not just come out of nowhere, they are the morbid byproduct of system failures, that once analyzed, led to further refinement of both procedures and equipment.

Now, I know a nulcear power plant is a more challenging system, as any major catastrophe has results far beyond those of hundred of airline crashes, but the same rules apply. The designers and regulators try to think of every scenairo that could cause an issue, and try to engineer a solution to the issue.

It took a massive 8.9 (7th largest earthquake ever) earthquake, coupled with a 30 ft high tsunami to penetrate the safety shell surrounding these systems, and they have, as of yet, not failed completely. The key event was that the SCRAM's all worked, at least shutting down the reactors from power generation level, to standby.

The Japanese government is responding correctly, in the face of one of the greatest natural tradgedies they have ever faced. Even if the evacuations prove unwarranted, they are erring on the side of caution, and doing it while large parts of thier country are in shambles.

 

[Ravi]

I think some of you are being silly to pretend the nuke problem is a "natural" tragedy...that is like blaming nature for wiping out your house that you choose to build on a river.

 

[martybegan]

I think some of you are being silly to pretend the nuke problem is a "natural" tragedy...that is like blaming nature for wiping out your house that you choose to build on a river.

A natural disaster is the root cause of the problems, and in your second example it is still a natural event that caused the event. Leave it to the lawyers the wisdom of building on a river bank.

Chernobyl and TMI were not natural events in any way, shape or form. The problems at the Japanese reactors were caused by the effects of an earthquake, which, unless i forgot to power down the earthquake-o-tron9000 in my basement, is a natural disaster.

No earthquake, no tsunami, no current plant failure.

 

[Big Fitz]

I think some of you are being silly to pretend the nuke problem is a "natural" tragedy...that is like blaming nature for wiping out your house that you choose to build on a river.

That's a gross oversimplification. It's more like losing your house on the shores of the river after you've built it in such a way to survive a 100 year flood... and then a 500 year flood comes around and only damages it partly.

It's a tragedy, yes. Your family's home got ruined in part and Servpros are going to be out there fixing a lot of damage that can be fixed. But that doesn't change the fact you took every precaution you thought necessary to deal with the crisis and probably were mocked for overbuilding by people who's houses now washed away.

So I have to reject your base premise.

 

[Ravi]

I think some of you are being silly to pretend the nuke problem is a "natural" tragedy...that is like blaming nature for wiping out your house that you choose to build on a river.

A natural disaster is the root cause of the problems, and in your second example it is still a natural event that caused the event. Leave it to the lawyers the wisdom of building on a river bank.

Chernobyl and TMI were not natural events in any way, shape or form. The problems at the Japanese reactors were caused by the effects of an earthquake, which, unless i forgot to power down the earthquake-o-tron9000 in my basement, is a natural disaster.

No earthquake, no tsunami, no current plant failure.

No nuclear plant in an earthquake zone, no nuclear emergency.

Keep pretending otherwise as you seem intent on doing so.

 

[martybegan]

Just saw a video of the explosion in one of the ancillary systems that happened just recently.

Yikes.

I'm a ChemE, so Electrical isnt my specialty, but could that be the result of a substation or transformer blowing? If its related to the backup pumps, it could also be one of the diesel generators blowing up. In any event, wow, that sucks. Hopefully they have more backups.

 

[Ravi]

I think some of you are being silly to pretend the nuke problem is a "natural" tragedy...that is like blaming nature for wiping out your house that you choose to build on a river.

That's a gross oversimplification. It's more like losing your house on the shores of the river after you've built it in such a way to survive a 100 year flood... and then a 500 year flood comes around and only damages it partly.

It's a tragedy, yes. Your family's home got ruined in part and Servpros are going to be out there fixing a lot of damage that can be fixed. But that doesn't change the fact you took every precaution you thought necessary to deal with the crisis and probably were mocked for overbuilding by people who's houses now washed away.

So I have to reject your base premise.

There is no failsafe precaution one can take to protect a house built on a river but one: not building on the river.

 

[dilloduck]

I think some of you are being silly to pretend the nuke problem is a "natural" tragedy...that is like blaming nature for wiping out your house that you choose to build on a river.

That's a gross oversimplification. It's more like losing your house on the shores of the river after you've built it in such a way to survive a 100 year flood... and then a 500 year flood comes around and only damages it partly.

It's a tragedy, yes. Your family's home got ruined in part and Servpros are going to be out there fixing a lot of damage that can be fixed. But that doesn't change the fact you took every precaution you thought necessary to deal with the crisis and probably were mocked for overbuilding by people who's houses now washed away.

So I have to reject your base premise.

There is no failsafe precaution one can take to protect a house built on a river but one: not building on the river.

And don't build by trees---one could fall on your house.
Nature can be brutal. Where are you going to build your house to be "safe" ?

 

[Mad Scientist]

The entire country of Japan is a volcanic island so there really isn't any "safe and stable" place to build anything.

 

[martybegan]

That's a gross oversimplification. It's more like losing your house on the shores of the river after you've built it in such a way to survive a 100 year flood... and then a 500 year flood comes around and only damages it partly.

It's a tragedy, yes. Your family's home got ruined in part and Servpros are going to be out there fixing a lot of damage that can be fixed. But that doesn't change the fact you took every precaution you thought necessary to deal with the crisis and probably were mocked for overbuilding by people who's houses now washed away.

So I have to reject your base premise.

There is no failsafe precaution one can take to protect a house built on a river but one: not building on the river.

And don't build by trees---one could fall on your house.
Nature can be brutal. Where are you going to build your house to be "safe" ?

You build it at an elevation above the 100 year flood level, or build it like one guy did, with his 1st floor basically being a flow through chamber made of concrete, with all his furnishings 10 feet up.

If people want to live in a risk free environment, i suggest, um, wait, I cant suggest anything.