NRA General Counsel Robert Dowlut Convicted of Murder

[turtledude]

1. On about August 24, 1992, the fourth day of the siege on the Weaver family, FBI Deputy Assistant Director Danny Coulson wrote a memo:

OPR 004477
Something to Consider
1. Charge against Weaver is Bull Shit.
2. No one saw Weaver do any shooting.
3. Vicki has no charges against her.
4. Weaver's defense. He ran down the hill to see what dog was
barking at. Some guys in camys shot his dog.
Started shooting at him. Killed his son. Harris did the

shooting [of Degan]. He [Weaver] is in pretty strong legal position."[10][55]

Yeah, I posted this memo too. Joey's comment was something about not caring what an FBI pencil pusher thought. You see, facts don't really matter to Joey. He has this idea of utopia and is absolutely sure if we could ban guns, kill the 1%ers, and give everyone a union job, we would be returned to Eden.

People like him make things like the Killing fields or the Stalinist purges happen

 

[Impenitent]

s

Yet it is illegal to sell a gun from your porch to
individuals who are known to be:

• Those convicted of felonies and certain misdemeanors except where state law reinstates rights, or removes disability.
• Fugitives from justice
• Unlawful users of certain depressant, narcotic, or stimulant drugs
• Those adjudicated as mental defectives or incompetents or those committed to any mental institution and currently containing a dangerous mental illness.
• Non-U.S. citizens, unless permanently immigrating into the United States or in possession of a hunting license legally issued in the United States
• Those who have renounced U.S. citizenship
• Persons convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence (an addition)
• Persons under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year are ineligible to receive, transport, or ship any firearm or ammunition

The "loophole" makes it conveniently impossible to know this.

and yet when the brady bill was passed, and Clinton claimed it stopped HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS from buying (from dealers)

a) only 12 were prosecuted for lying on the form

b) crime did not go down

so why do you push a law that won't decrease crime?

Why not discuss the results of increased background checks in Colorado? I think I know.

In the first year, 72 felons were denied purchasing a gun. Say that was applied in all 50 states. Pretty good results, huh? Crime does go down. Easily.

And not a worthy soul was denied his rights.

if those people were not incarcerated who knows if they were actually unable to get a gun

so you are talking out of your ass

the issue was-did crime go down as a result

if those 72 people were people who had decades old marijuana or draft evasion convictions-who cares because most people like them are not going to commit violent crime

CAN YOU PROVE THAT CRIME WENT DOWN AS A RESULT

NONE OF THE STUDIES OF THE BRADY ACT could prove so[/QUOTE]
Too early to tell - the stats aren't out yet, but there are numbers on how many people were rejected:

The most common reasons for denial varied: 1,412 were due to an arrest or conviction of assault; 381 because the applicant had a restraining order against them; 166 for arrest or conviction of sexual assault; and 41 were because of a homicide conviction, and arrests or convictions for other crimes. There were a total of 6,198 private sale background checks from July through December, with 122 of those denied during that period.

Though it does defy common sense that denying guns r

s

Yet it is illegal to sell a gun from your porch to
individuals who are known to be:

• Those convicted of felonies and certain misdemeanors except where state law reinstates rights, or removes disability.
• Fugitives from justice
• Unlawful users of certain depressant, narcotic, or stimulant drugs
• Those adjudicated as mental defectives or incompetents or those committed to any mental institution and currently containing a dangerous mental illness.
• Non-U.S. citizens, unless permanently immigrating into the United States or in possession of a hunting license legally issued in the United States
• Those who have renounced U.S. citizenship
• Persons convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence (an addition)
• Persons under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year are ineligible to receive, transport, or ship any firearm or ammunition

The "loophole" makes it conveniently impossible to know this.

and yet when the brady bill was passed, and Clinton claimed it stopped HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS from buying (from dealers)

a) only 12 were prosecuted for lying on the form

b) crime did not go down

so why do you push a law that won't decrease crime?

Why not discuss the results of increased background checks in Colorado? I think I know.

In the first year, 72 felons were denied purchasing a gun. Say that was applied in all 50 states. Pretty good results, huh? Crime does go down. Easily.

And not a worthy soul was denied his rights.

if those people were not incarcerated who knows if they were actually unable to get a gun

so you are talking out of your ass

the issue was-did crime go down as a result

if those 72 people were people who had decades old marijuana or draft evasion convictions-who cares because most people like them are not going to commit violent crime

CAN YOU PROVE THAT CRIME WENT DOWN AS A RESULT

NONE OF THE STUDIES OF THE BRADY ACT could prove so[/QUOTE]

Too soon to tell. It was only in effect the last 6 months of 2013. But marijuana busts don't seem to be in play. Reasons for denial are this:

The most common reasons for denial varied: 1,412 were due to an arrest or conviction of assault; 381 because the applicant had a restraining order against them; 166 for arrest or conviction of sexual assault; and 41 were because of a homicide conviction, and arrests or convictions for other crimes. There were a total of 6,198 private sale background checks from July through December, with 122 of those denied during that period.

But if defies common sense that denying these people
Gun purchases did not reduce crime

 

[turtledude]

we don't have to prove gun purchases decreased crime. Yo have to prove that restrictions decrease crime

You cannot. we should have a free society and there should be a severe and strict burden on the control freaks who want to rape our liberty.

want to restrict our freedom-you better prove beyond doubt that your solutions do some good

 

[Impenitent]

Found this:

Why expanding background checks would in fact reduce gun crime - The Washington Post

Missouri’s repeal of its permit-to-purchase licensing and private handgun sale background checks law in August 2007 provides an example. Immediately following the repeal of this law, the share of guns recovered by Missouri police agencies that had an unusually short time interval between retail sale and crime — which is indicative of trafficking — more than doubled. The share of crime guns that had originally been sold by Missouri gun dealers rose sharply. [5]

There is also evidence that repeal of this law increased gun violence. Data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention show that when the mean from first three years of data following the repeal of the law are compared with the mean from the prior nine years, the rate of homicides with guns increased 25 percent in Missouri while nationally there was a 10 percent decline.

 

[JoeB131]

Sammy shot Degan first, after Degan shot their dog.

Um, not really. But you keep telling yourself that...

Comrade Stalin, are you sure you want to start lying about Ruby Ridge again?

I will humiliate you, just as I did last time.

Uh, yeah, guy, because nothing makes you sound more rational than talking about the Nazis on Ruby Ridge.

 

[WinterBorn]

Sammy shot Degan first, after Degan shot their dog.

Um, not really. But you keep telling yourself that...

Comrade Stalin, are you sure you want to start lying about Ruby Ridge again?

I will humiliate you, just as I did last time.

Uh, yeah, guy, because nothing makes you sound more rational than talking about the Nazis on Ruby Ridge.

You mean like your irrational lying about what happened on Ruby Ridge and in court after? lol

 

[JoeB131]

1. On about August 24, 1992, the fourth day of the siege on the Weaver family, FBI Deputy Assistant Director Danny Coulson wrote a memo:

OPR 004477
Something to Consider
1. Charge against Weaver is Bull Shit.
2. No one saw Weaver do any shooting.
3. Vicki has no charges against her.
4. Weaver's defense. He ran down the hill to see what dog was
barking at. Some guys in camys shot his dog.
Started shooting at him. Killed his son. Harris did the

shooting [of Degan]. He [Weaver] is in pretty strong legal position."[10][55]

I think the problem with this logic is that you ignore the concept of "accessory" laws.

Weaver got a pass because people felt bad for him, not because he was innocent.

 

[JoeB131]

Sammy shot Degan first, after Degan shot their dog.

Um, not really. But you keep telling yourself that...

Comrade Stalin, are you sure you want to start lying about Ruby Ridge again?

I will humiliate you, just as I did last time.

Uh, yeah, guy, because nothing makes you sound more rational than talking about the Nazis on Ruby Ridge.

You mean like your irrational lying about what happened on Ruby Ridge and in court after? lol

guy, nothing makes you gun nuts sound sillier than trying to make martyrs out of these Crazy Nazis in Idaho.

Maybe you need to throw in a side of "Koresh wasn't a kiddy-diddler".

 

[WinterBorn]

Sammy shot Degan first, after Degan shot their dog.

Um, not really. But you keep telling yourself that...

Comrade Stalin, are you sure you want to start lying about Ruby Ridge again?

I will humiliate you, just as I did last time.

Uh, yeah, guy, because nothing makes you sound more rational than talking about the Nazis on Ruby Ridge.

You mean like your irrational lying about what happened on Ruby Ridge and in court after? lol

guy, nothing makes you gun nuts sound sillier than trying to make martyrs out of these Crazy Nazis in Idaho.

Maybe you need to throw in a side of "Koresh wasn't a kiddy-diddler".

I am not making them a martyr. I am simply calling you on your lies. What you have said in this discussion of the entire Ruby Ridge incident has been nothing but lies. If they are so bad, why lie about them?

 

[JoeB131]

[

RW was Green Beret. He was a separatist. The Feds figured he'd be a good guy to help them infiltrate WHITE SUPREMACISTS. Weaver said no-leave me alone. He did his service honorably and he didn't want to get involved. SO he was set up with an entrapment to force him to help. when he wouldn't the Feds decided to **** him over. I worked for the federal government for almost 25 years. 99% of the agents I worked with were honest hardworking patriots-Democrats and Conservatives. My bosses-both parties, were for the most part very good people. One, a democrat, was appointed a federal judge. I told my congressman friend and my college buddy who had the ear of Orrin Hatch, to support this man even though it was right before the 96 election.

and none of us had any use for what was done with the weavers. its was an abomination. and it wasn't Bush or Clinton. Randy weaver and his surviving family members got over 3 million dollars that us tax payers had to pay.
Potts, Horiuchi and others should have paid. Potts gave the illegal orders-he should be in prison, Horiuchi should have known the orders were illegal. the only guy to pay for his crimes is Degan-he is dead

Naw, Weaver wasn't a Nazi. He just lived with the rest of the Nazis and went to their meetings and churches.

Seriously, the only thing the FBI did wrong was not double tap these guys after the shootout.

 

[JoeB131]

[

I have read the official reports and spoke to LEOs familiar with the story

the USMS started the shooting by shooting the weaver dog because it was going to alert the weavers. Sammy fired a wild shot in the vicinity of some of the USMS agents including the one that killed their dog. Randy called sammy to come to him and Sammy started running towards his home. Degan shot sammy in the back and then Kevin harris killed Degan. It was a righteous shooting of Degan. Degan should have been tried for murder for shooting Sammy in the back. Lon Horiuchi also should have been tried for murder along with the superior (Potts) who gave the illegal order to shoot when there was no threat

Horiiuchi claimed that Harris and Weaver were pointing rifles at an FBI helicopter so he shot and wounded them and then killed Vicky Weaver trying to shoot a running Kevin Harris.

The helicopter was more than 5 miles away at the time

Sammy shot first.

So let me get this straight.

Officer Wilson in Ferguson was perfectly justified in shooting and UNARMED Michael Brown because Brown stole some cigars and was "rushing" him.

But Marshal Degan wasn't justified in shooting at a bunch of Nazi ***** who were shooting at him?

gun nuts. You guys are soooooo funny.

 

[WinterBorn]

[

I have read the official reports and spoke to LEOs familiar with the story

the USMS started the shooting by shooting the weaver dog because it was going to alert the weavers. Sammy fired a wild shot in the vicinity of some of the USMS agents including the one that killed their dog. Randy called sammy to come to him and Sammy started running towards his home. Degan shot sammy in the back and then Kevin harris killed Degan. It was a righteous shooting of Degan. Degan should have been tried for murder for shooting Sammy in the back. Lon Horiuchi also should have been tried for murder along with the superior (Potts) who gave the illegal order to shoot when there was no threat

Horiiuchi claimed that Harris and Weaver were pointing rifles at an FBI helicopter so he shot and wounded them and then killed Vicky Weaver trying to shoot a running Kevin Harris.

The helicopter was more than 5 miles away at the time

Sammy shot first.

So let me get this straight.

Officer Wilson in Ferguson was perfectly justified in shooting and UNARMED Michael Brown because Brown stole some cigars and was "rushing" him.

But Marshal Degan wasn't justified in shooting at a bunch of Nazi ***** who were shooting at him?

gun nuts. You guys are soooooo funny.

Let me get this straight, first you claim Sammy shot the marshall. Then you claim that Harris was not prosecuted because Sammy shot the marshal. And now you are wailing about Degan shooting at people shooting at him?

The first shots fired were by the feds, not the civilians. And Degan was not shot by Sammy. Sammy was shot in the back while retreating,

Considering the crime Randy Weaver was charged with, the amount of force used here was a travesty of justice.

 

[WinterBorn]

Come on, Joey, tell us again how the 14 year old kid (who was shot in the back) was the one who shot the marshal?

Tell us again how Harris got off because Sammy shot the marshal?

Tell us again where you have any info that Weaver was a nazi?

 

[JoeB131]

Come on, Joey, tell us again how the 14 year old kid (who was shot in the back) was the one who shot the marshal?

Tell us again how Harris got off because Sammy shot the marshal?

Tell us again where you have any info that Weaver was a nazi?

You mean you are saying an injured man couldn't get a shot off during a firefight?

The Nazis shot first.

 

[WinterBorn]

Come on, Joey, tell us again how the 14 year old kid (who was shot in the back) was the one who shot the marshal?

Tell us again how Harris got off because Sammy shot the marshal?

Tell us again where you have any info that Weaver was a nazi?

You mean you are saying an injured man couldn't get a shot off during a firefight?

The Nazis shot first.

I am saying that Sammy did not shoot the marshal. But you have said he did and that harris got of because Sammy killed the marshal. Both of those are lies. Sammy did not shoot the marshal and Harris was acquitted on grounds of self-defense.

But keep lying. It makes your arguments look weaker and funnier.

 

[JoeB131]

Come on, Joey, tell us again how the 14 year old kid (who was shot in the back) was the one who shot the marshal?

Tell us again how Harris got off because Sammy shot the marshal?

Tell us again where you have any info that Weaver was a nazi?

You mean you are saying an injured man couldn't get a shot off during a firefight?

The Nazis shot first.

I am saying that Sammy did not shoot the marshal. But you have said he did and that harris got of because Sammy killed the marshal. Both of those are lies. Sammy did not shoot the marshal and Harris was acquitted on grounds of self-defense.

But keep lying. It makes your arguments look weaker and funnier.

He might have. That's called "reasonable doubt". Again, we are talking about Idaho here, a state where they keep so racially pure that there's a lot of inbreeding.

 

[WinterBorn]

Come on, Joey, tell us again how the 14 year old kid (who was shot in the back) was the one who shot the marshal?

Tell us again how Harris got off because Sammy shot the marshal?

Tell us again where you have any info that Weaver was a nazi?

You mean you are saying an injured man couldn't get a shot off during a firefight?

The Nazis shot first.

I am saying that Sammy did not shoot the marshal. But you have said he did and that harris got of because Sammy killed the marshal. Both of those are lies. Sammy did not shoot the marshal and Harris was acquitted on grounds of self-defense.

But keep lying. It makes your arguments look weaker and funnier.

He might have. That's called "reasonable doubt". Again, we are talking about Idaho here, a state where they keep so racially pure that there's a lot of inbreeding.

LMAO!! Oh, now it's "He might have"? lol

No, he didn't. Harris shot the marshal. Degan was killed by a bullet from Harris' gun, not Sammy's.

You really have no problem playing it fast & loose with facts, do you?

 

[turtledude]

Sammy shot Degan first, after Degan shot their dog.

Um, not really. But you keep telling yourself that...

Comrade Stalin, are you sure you want to start lying about Ruby Ridge again?

I will humiliate you, just as I did last time.

Uh, yeah, guy, because nothing makes you sound more rational than talking about the Nazis on Ruby Ridge.

You mean like your irrational lying about what happened on Ruby Ridge and in court after? lol

JoeB hopes other gun owners are treated like the Weavers by the ATF I suspect. Calling them Nazis is his way of justifying government imposed murder on peaceful citizens who merely wanted to be left alone.

 

[turtledude]

Found this:

Why expanding background checks would in fact reduce gun crime - The Washington Post

Missouri’s repeal of its permit-to-purchase licensing and private handgun sale background checks law in August 2007 provides an example. Immediately following the repeal of this law, the share of guns recovered by Missouri police agencies that had an unusually short time interval between retail sale and crime — which is indicative of trafficking — more than doubled. The share of crime guns that had originally been sold by Missouri gun dealers rose sharply. [5]

There is also evidence that repeal of this law increased gun violence. Data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention show that when the mean from first three years of data following the repeal of the law are compared with the mean from the prior nine years, the rate of homicides with guns increased 25 percent in Missouri while nationally there was a 10 percent decline.

that study has been debunked since all it did was suggest a correlation rather than causation

Its sad that you are in favor of government murder of citizens but its mindsets of people like you that require freedom loving americans to be well armed. God help us if someone like you gets into a position of power

 

[turtledude]

1. On about August 24, 1992, the fourth day of the siege on the Weaver family, FBI Deputy Assistant Director Danny Coulson wrote a memo:

OPR 004477
Something to Consider
1. Charge against Weaver is Bull Shit.
2. No one saw Weaver do any shooting.
3. Vicki has no charges against her.
4. Weaver's defense. He ran down the hill to see what dog was
barking at. Some guys in camys shot his dog.
Started shooting at him. Killed his son. Harris did the

shooting [of Degan]. He [Weaver] is in pretty strong legal position."[10][55]

I think the problem with this logic is that you ignore the concept of "accessory" laws.

Weaver got a pass because people felt bad for him, not because he was innocent.

you are lying again. tell me how many felonies you have prosecuted or criminal federal appeals you have handled. the entire weaver case is one of the real nadirs of the US law enforcement community and is a disgrace to all of us who worked for the federal government.