Now it's a basic law: The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people

[USAF 2023]

No, these words are not demonizing. These are words taken straight from Team Israel!

You only have to look at comments from some members of Team Israel to see how they feel they are the chosen ones by god.

Need I mention the "Promised Land"?

I'd suggest you listen to Coyote on that score. For one, there is no "Team Israel" other than as a form of stereotyping. Second, if they feel they are their god's chosen people, so what? That's perfectly okay, unless they try to legislate their chosen-ness in order to discriminate against the lesser-in-god's-eye people. That means, you'd have to look at actual policies, actual legislation, not just feel-good-about-themselves prayer.

He is nothing but an How many Jews refer to themselves that way? Maybe his Jewish “ friends” at the barbecue !

 

[Shusha]

The idea of" choseness is not originating with us -- it is PUT ON US by others.

So there is nothing the in the torah or bible giving Jews "choseness"?

The only person who brought up choseness is you. It is a pattern on this board that the only people who bring up choseness are people wishing to demonize the Jewish people. Oh, and its not "providing valid criticism of Israel's government policies" -- its a direct attack on the Jewish people.

Jewish people do not bring up choseness. It is a tool used by those who have an unreasonable hatred of Jews in order to apply traits of arrogance and superiority to Jews so that they can be demonized. (Which, btw, is NOT what choseness means and anyone with any knowledge of actual Torah, rather than canards said about Torah, would know that.)

 

[Shusha]

As to the Slovenian constitution, you should have read it, for had you done so, you'd realize it's an admirable document, and Israel could have learned how to do it right.

The only thing that even so much as smells of discrimination is a provision that allows for ethnic Slovenian citizens of other states to be granted, by law, privileges over other foreigners on Slovenian soil.

Uh huh. When Slovenia writes:
the fundamental and permanent right of the Slovene nation to self-determination; and from the historical fact that in a centuries-long struggle for national liberation we Slovenes have established our national identity and asserted our statehood... its ADMIRABLE.

And when Israel writes:
The state of Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people, in which it actualizes its natural, religious, and historical right for self-determination...its APARTHEID.

And yet you don't see the double standard. Its more than a little ridiculous.

But you didn't read it, and you are dutifully re-bleating the hasbara your handlers tasked you with catapulting. Your handlers also knew, apparently, that you'd be too lazy to read the document, and so they confidently lied to you. Why you debase yourself in that way I cannot understand, but hey... to each their own.

Yes, the very latest antisemitic canard. Thanks for sharing. I appreciate know that about you.

 

[Olde Europe]

Uh huh. When Slovenia writes:
the fundamental and permanent right of the Slovene nation to self-determination; and from the historical fact that in a centuries-long struggle for national liberation we Slovenes have established our national identity and asserted our statehood... its ADMIRABLE.

And when Israel writes:
The state of Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people, in which it actualizes its natural, religious, and historical right for self-determination...its APARTHEID.

And yet you don't see the double standard. Its more than a little ridiculous.

Yeah, it turns out, posts starting with grunts like "Uh huh." are also lies.

The "Slovene nation" includes all citizens of Slovenia, all participating on an equal footing in the national self-determination.

The "Jewish people", to which self-determination in Israel is "unique", is a group distinct from "Israeli citizens", for it excludes quite a few.

Sure, since your lies are so weak, ill-thought-out, and transparent, the accusation of "antisemitism" cannot be far away. Wait...

Yes, the very latest antisemitic canard. Thanks for sharing. I appreciate know that about you.

You hasbara peddlers are nothing if not predictable.

Yeah, I know, but that was really my last post to you.

 

[Shusha]

The "Slovene nation" includes all citizens of Slovenia, all participating on an equal footing in the national self-determination.

The "Jewish people", to which self-determination in Israel is "unique", is a group distinct from "Israeli citizens", for it excludes quite a few.

So, uh huh, "we Slovenes" includes the Slovenes and all the non-Slovenes and excludes no one. While "Jewish people" excludes non-Jews. Slovene nation is inclusive. But Jewish nation is exclusive. Slovene nationality is admirable. Jewish nationality is apartheid.

And you can't smell the double standard?

 

[Shusha]

Olde Europe

Let's try this one:

The continuous attachment of the Jewish people to the land of their fathers and forefathers, on which this people has historically lived, is a fact which has been expressed in the Declaration of Independence. The strength of this attachment is confirmed by its consistency over time and place, by keeping faith with and holding on to national identity, and in the wonderous accomplishments of struggle. The organic relationship between the Jewish people, their history and their land has confirmed itself in their unceasing effort to prompt the world to recognize the rights of the Jewish people and their national entity on equal footing with other nations.

Israel is part of the larger Jewish world and the Jewish people are part of Israel.

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.

Judaism is the official religion in Israel. Respect for the sanctity of all other religions shall be maintained.

Halacha shall be the principle source of legislation.

Hebrew shall be the official language.



Admirable or Apartheid?

 

[Shusha]

My point is not to absolve Israel from discrimination. I have said time and again that there is clearly deeply rooted, even systemic discrimination in Israel.

What you are saying is not enough. Prove it. Until now I didn't see even one confirmation.

You are arguing that Israel is discrimination-free?

It's a strange question. Discrimination is a general notion. Some people may think that declaring Israel as a Jewish state discriminates Arabs. Others can consider the exemption of Arabs from military service as discrimination towards Jews.
Your words "there is clearly deeply rooted, even systemic discrimination in Israel" is a very strong statement and you should provide very strong evidences to support it.

Well, don't misunderstand me. I think EVERY country which has a multiplicity of ethnic groups has discrimination on some level. In Israel it is especially hard to address because of the conflict. And I think Israel has done better than most despite all the additional problems she faces. That said, I do think its likely there is an underlying social discrimination problem in Israel coming from all sorts of sides: religious/non-religious, Arab/Jew, immigrants from different places, sabar/olim, etc.

As an example, I was reading an article about the sale (lease) of apartments. Can't remember the name of the city. But an Arab placed an inquiry call and was told all the apartments were sold. Yet the signs for the apartments were still up. So she had a Jewish friend call. Sure enough, plenty of apartments available. Anytime someone with an Arab name called, the apartments were all sold. Anytime someone with a Jewish name called, they were available. I realize this is against the law in Israel. But does it happen? I'm guessing it does. I'm sure it happens the other way around too -- with Arabs refusing to sell or rent to Jews.

The restrictions on Jews visiting the Temple Mount is an example of institutionalized discrimination, despite laws and treaties which demand equality in religion.

And there are disparities in funding to various municipalities as I understand it, though the cause of those disparities is remarkably difficult to parse out.

And what about Gapso in Nazareth declaring it was a "Jewish city" and that he would permit no Arab schools or Arab housing? Its a very, very fine line to walk to protect and preserve the Jewish culture while also providing all citizens with fair and equal access to services.

 

[flacaltenn]

Again -- the emphasis seems to be on strategic immigration policy -- not discrimination against the fully incorporated CURRENT Arab citizens. What good is the promise and priority of providing sanctuary to World Jewry if the very limited land held BY the state (not occupied territories) is not reserved in a fashion that ALLOWS them to honor that pledge.

That would be wrong. From the first phrase to the last. The Israeli state holds 93% of Israeli territory. And it has nothing in particular to do with immigration. And keeping Arabs in squalor because there might be Jews arriving is no way to "honor" a pledge. It's merely a way to "justify" inhumanity.

You're kinda off in the weeds and so is Ha'Aretz with this editorial. I encourage you to READ AGAIN the actual bill shown in OP, and point out the places YOU think turns Israel "into a racist Jewish State". It's not there.

The editorial was spot on. I'd suggest you take your time to read the thread.

It's not wrong. Because the "Israeli State" ALREADY holds more than 1/2 Million Arab CITIZENS. You seem to not understand the demographics. And that's not counting CHRISTIANS as well. The 93% is also bogus because it counts the necessary Israeli supplied security/military infrastructure that HAS to be there in the Palestinian territories in the ABSENCE of any effective Palestinian govt. Also things like power/water/roads right of ways.

I also think you need to VISIT the "occupied territories because you OBVIOUSLY have no clue about "Arab squalor". The Palis in Gaza and West Bank are NOT "in squalor. Those are thriving places not lacking education, economy or services. Go LOOK at pictures of the West Bank cities or the restaurant choices in Gaza.

THEN what you need to do is go look at how about 225,000 Palestinian refugees ARE actually living in squalor in 60 year old ad hoc refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan.

I'll let you go get a better perspective on Ramallah and Hebron, Nablus, Bethlehem, Gaza.

Does Ramallah look like SQUALOR to you????

How about a BRAND NEW Palestinian City built from NOTHING in the desert that just started selling units to residents? Take a look at THIS PLACE !!!! You NEED TO WATCH THE ENTIRE VIDEO to even BEGIN to get over your false impressions of squalor. Palestinians have a higher standard of living in OCCUPIED Israel than in ANY Arab nation.





Want to see how Lebanon treats their Pali refugees in CAMPS? THIS is squalor and recently Lebanon actually built a prison wall around their largest Pali camp..



There's no comparison. If you THINK you're HELPING Palestinians -- you're not even familar with them and their problems.

 

[flacaltenn]

I know there are several "mixed" private schools and daycares in the West Bank.

In Jerusalem? In Area C? In Palestine government-controlled areas?

One is in that West-East Valley passage just west of Jenin. Not OFFICIALLY in Area C. Already has a large Arab CITIZEN population. But there are others that I've seen. And believe there to be at least a couple inside the Green Zone. Like in mixed settlement areas like where that brand new upscale Pali city is being built. THOSE folks are gonna want something BETTER than ad hoc Palestinian schools. And THEY can afford it. LOL...

Behind the Scenes of a Joint Israeli-Palestinian School - Video Dailymotion

 

[Shusha]

I know there are several "mixed" private schools and daycares in the West Bank.

In Jerusalem? In Area C? In Palestine government-controlled areas?

One is in that West-East Valley passage just west of Jenin. Not OFFICIALLY in Area C. Already has a large Arab CITIZEN population. But there are others that I've seen. And believe there to be at least a couple inside the Green Zone. Like in mixed settlement areas like where that brand new upscale Pali city is being built. THOSE folks are gonna want something BETTER than ad hoc Palestinian schools. And THEY can afford it. LOL...

Behind the Scenes of a Joint Israeli-Palestinian School - Video Dailymotion

Yes, I've heard of these schools. There are a handful of them around. Most are in Israel. Some in Area C.

 

[admonit]

I know there are several "mixed" private schools and daycares in the West Bank.

In Jerusalem? In Area C? In Palestine government-controlled areas?

To start with, there is no Jews in Palestine government-controlled areas..

 

[Humanity]

Is this a continuation of lies? Post #698 is YOUR post!

Still no demonization!

And to deal with "That is NOT fair criticism of Israel's policies" - Whether it is "fair" to critisize the policy of a government is a matter of opinion. Don't you think?

If I critisize the policies of the US am I demonizing the US and the people of the US?

My mistake. It was #695.

It is absolutely fair to criticize the policies of a government. What it is NOT fair to do is criticize a government for something they have not done. Like create Bantustans. The implication of your post #695 was that Israel WILL create Bantustans in the future and therefore deserve to be condemned for apartheid even though they have not done so now. That is not fair criticism of a government's policies.

Wow, just wow!

My commenting "Yet!" you consider demonization?

That really is hilarious! It would fall into your "fair" description if the Israeli government made that decision would it not?

Again, you telling lies and making shit up! Where did I say, where have I ever said that Israel is an apartheid state?

"What it is NOT fair to do is criticize a government for something they have not done." - I made NO criticism! I simply commented "Yet!"

"What it is NOT fair to do is criticize a government for something they have not done." - I would suggest Team Israel needs to heed your words!

 

[fncceo]

Team Israel needs to heed your words!

Noted

 

[Humanity]

Not at all, since Israel provides privileges to Jewish citizens of other states over Israeli non-Jews.

Is that not what I said?!?!

 

[Humanity]

The idea of" choseness is not originating with us -- it is PUT ON US by others.

So there is nothing the in the torah or bible giving Jews "choseness"?

The only person who brought up choseness is you. It is a pattern on this board that the only people who bring up choseness are people wishing to demonize the Jewish people. Oh, and its not "providing valid criticism of Israel's government policies" -- its a direct attack on the Jewish people.

Jewish people do not bring up choseness. It is a tool used by those who have an unreasonable hatred of Jews in order to apply traits of arrogance and superiority to Jews so that they can be demonized. (Which, btw, is NOT what choseness means and anyone with any knowledge of actual Torah, rather than canards said about Torah, would know that.)

So, to get this straight, you are trying to tell me that not a single Team Israel member has ever said that Israel was given to them by god?

You are trying to tell me that Jews do not think that they are the chosen ones?

 

[fncceo]

The idea of" choseness is not originating with us -- it is PUT ON US by others.

So there is nothing the in the torah or bible giving Jews "choseness"?

The only person who brought up choseness is you. It is a pattern on this board that the only people who bring up choseness are people wishing to demonize the Jewish people. Oh, and its not "providing valid criticism of Israel's government policies" -- its a direct attack on the Jewish people.

Jewish people do not bring up choseness. It is a tool used by those who have an unreasonable hatred of Jews in order to apply traits of arrogance and superiority to Jews so that they can be demonized. (Which, btw, is NOT what choseness means and anyone with any knowledge of actual Torah, rather than canards said about Torah, would know that.)

So, to get this straight, you are trying to tell me that not a single Team Israel member has ever said that Israel was given to them by god?

You are trying to tell me that Jews do not think that they are the chosen ones?

You weren't chosen for a reason.

 

[Olde Europe]

It's not wrong. Because the "Israeli State" ALREADY holds more than 1/2 Million Arab CITIZENS. You seem to not understand the demographics. And that's not counting CHRISTIANS as well. The 93% is also bogus because it counts the necessary Israeli supplied security/military infrastructure that HAS to be there in the Palestinian territories in the ABSENCE of any effective Palestinian govt. Also things like power/water/roads right of ways.

[non-pertinent whataboutery excised]

You're still wrong, just in more... creative ways, and in caps.

 

[admonit]

My point is not to absolve Israel from discrimination. I have said time and again that there is clearly deeply rooted, even systemic discrimination in Israel.

What you are saying is not enough. Prove it. Until now I didn't see even one confirmation.

You are arguing that Israel is discrimination-free?

It's a strange question. Discrimination is a general notion. Some people may think that declaring Israel as a Jewish state discriminates Arabs. Others can consider the exemption of Arabs from military service as discrimination towards Jews.
Your words "there is clearly deeply rooted, even systemic discrimination in Israel" is a very strong statement and you should provide very strong evidences to support it.

Well, don't misunderstand me. I think EVERY country which has a multiplicity of ethnic groups has discrimination on some level.

OK, it's your opinion.

As an example, I was reading an article about the sale (lease) of apartments. Can't remember the name of the city. But an Arab placed an inquiry call and was told all the apartments were sold. Yet the signs for the apartments were still up. So she had a Jewish friend call. Sure enough, plenty of apartments available. Anytime someone with an Arab name called, the apartments were all sold. Anytime someone with a Jewish name called, they were available. I realize this is against the law in Israel. But does it happen? I'm guessing it does. I'm sure it happens the other way around too -- with Arabs refusing to sell or rent to Jews.

These people revealed nothing new. In mixed cities Jews and Arabs prefer to live in separate residential blocks. Also I never heard about Arab members in Kibbutzim and of course about Jews in Arab villages and cities - there is zero Jewish population there.

The restrictions on Jews visiting the Temple Mount is an example of institutionalized discrimination, despite laws and treaties which demand equality in religion.

The religious aspect of these restrictions is not simple. The Chief Rabbinate of Israel forbids visiting the place "due to its sacredness". Also I never heard that Reform or Conservative movements condemned these restrictions.

And there are disparities in funding to various municipalities as I understand it, though the cause of those disparities is remarkably difficult to parse out.

It means no proofs, just belief that discrimination should be. OK.
And I believe that the Arab sector gets huge additional investments from the state. One such plan of economical development of the Arab sector was presented here by Coyote as a proof of discrimination of Arabs...

And what about Gapso in Nazareth declaring it was a "Jewish city" and that he would permit no Arab schools or Arab housing? Its a very, very fine line to walk to protect and preserve the Jewish culture while also providing all citizens with fair and equal access to services.

Nazareth is an Arab city with zero Jewish population in it.
It's about Upper Nazareth. The city was established as a Jewish city. And again, as in case with apartments, the right of Jews to create their community is criticized, while the same behavior of Arabs is ignored. If there is discrimination, then only toward Jews.

 

[USAF 2023]

The idea of" choseness is not originating with us -- it is PUT ON US by others.

So there is nothing the in the torah or bible giving Jews "choseness"?

The only person who brought up choseness is you. It is a pattern on this board that the only people who bring up choseness are people wishing to demonize the Jewish people. Oh, and its not "providing valid criticism of Israel's government policies" -- its a direct attack on the Jewish people.

Jewish people do not bring up choseness. It is a tool used by those who have an unreasonable hatred of Jews in order to apply traits of arrogance and superiority to Jews so that they can be demonized. (Which, btw, is NOT what choseness means and anyone with any knowledge of actual Torah, rather than canards said about Torah, would know that.)

So, to get this straight, you are trying to tell me that not a single Team Israel member has ever said that Israel was given to them by god?

You are trying to tell me that Jews do not think that they are the chosen ones?

“ Chosen “ isn’t about good or bad according to your thread. . It’s about the Torah. So what?? I know Christians who feel that one day the Jewish people will recognize Jesus as their “ savior” and we know about the religious intolerance of the Muslim World. During the Gulf War our Military weren’t even allowed to bring their bibles into Saudi Arabia. How would you feel if that were Israel??

 

[Shusha]

You are trying to tell me that Jews do not think that they are the chosen ones?

You are asking me if there are people who hold Jewish religious faith traditions?! And that some of them are on this board arguing for Team Israel? OF COURSE THERE ARE! Duh. Newsflash -- there are also some people on this board who have religious ideas stemming from Islam. And also some who believe JC committed suicide to save people from hell. There may even be a Buddhist hanging around somewhere. Whoa.

So, to get this straight, you are trying to tell me that not a single Team Israel member has ever said that Israel was given to them by god?

No. I'm trying to tell you that your original assertion, posted below, which is that Team I routinely uses the "choseness argument" to assert claim over Israel is both false and demonizing. To my recollection there is one occasional poster, possibly two, who very occasionally make a comment about G-d granting Eretz Israel to the Jewish people (which is not actually the "choseness argument", btw). You can't expect religious people not to have religious ideas. You don't have to agree with them or hold those ideas yourself.

But what you have done weaponized the idea of choseness. You've taken a simple religious concept, which you clearly do not understand, and twisted it into a knife used to cut the Jewish people -- accusing them, as a collective whole, of being arrogant, ignorant and separate from (above?) the rest of humanity. Don't worry, you aren't alone, this is an antisemitic canard which goes back at least hundreds of years, and likely far longer.

The regular posters for Team Israel use the Jewish people's historical and ancestral continued presence in the land for more than 3000 years, as indigenous peoples, for the basis of our arguments that the Jewish people, like all other peoples, have a right to a homeland, including a nation. Our arguments are NOT based on religious concepts. While, occasionally, a religious concept becomes part of the conversation, as part of the culture of the Jewish people, religion is not the basis for our claims. (And I have argued consistently that it can't be).

AND, if, as you claim, you fully support the rights of the Jewish people to a national homeland in that territory, you wouldn't be writing posts which collectively demonize the Jewish people and undermine their claim. Though I do appreciate the opportunity to scratch the surface, as it were, and see what lies at your core.

And, btw, speaking of other countries with ideas about being chosen, Korea has a fascinating religious origins story.

I mean, seriously, how many other countries/peoples were chosen by 'god'? How many other people consider themselves the 'chosen ones'?

It is this arrogance, this blind faith (faith being another word for ignorance) that is used time and again by Team Israel to try and differentiate themselves from the rest of humanity!

The arrogance and the hypocrisy is astonishing!