Not The Onion: Climate Change Causing Ocean Floor To Sink Under Water Weight From Melting Glaciers

[Wuwei]

NO. The 2nd law means that it is not possible for thermal energy to move spontaneously from cool to warm.

energy is energy...there is no form of energy that is exempt from the second law..every form of energy from photons to a boulder sitting at the top of a hill must adhere to the second law...

The word thermodynamics is in the phrase "the second law of thermodynamics for a reason" That law says nothing about boulders or potential energy.

Here is where you are confused:
Yes, energy is always energy.
Thermal energy is always energy.
Not all energy is thermal energy.
A boulders on a hill is potential energy. If you want to talk about what boulders might do, you have to look at the more encompassing theory of the SLoT in terms of entropy not in terms of heat flow.

I hope that helps.

 

[SSDD]

The word thermodynamics is in the phrase "the second law of thermodynamics for a reason" That law says nothing about boulders or potential energy.

STEP RIGHT UP and tell us all how ignorant you are on the topic of thermodynamics... You clearly don't have the first clue. Here is a primer intended for students going into the hard sciences to give them a handle on the basics of thermodynamics.


ENERGY AND THERMODYNAMICS (Biology)

Page 1 clip:
A hands-on module designed to give biology, chemistry, and physics students concrete experiences related to the concepts of thermodynamics.

Page 4 clip: Energy: is the ability to do work or bring about a change What is the study of energy called? thermodynamics

Following that statement is a chart..it describes the two states of energy and shows examples...The two states are kinetic energy and potential energy. Under the heading of kinetic energy is listed the energy of motion and examples are thermal, light, and electrical energy...under the heading of potential energy is listed Energy of position or stored energy...examples are chemical, gradient, and gravitational energy.

Next is shows a cube on an incline...at the top of the incline the cube is described as potential energy...as the cube moves down the incline, it is described as kinetic energy...this also applies to boulders at the top of a hill, or water running downhill.

Bottom line...ALL energy obeys the 2nd law of thermodynamics and it speaks to all energy...whether it is radiant energy from a heater, a hot wheels car rolling down the track, an electron moving along the wiring in your home, water running down a stream, or stored behind a dam, or sugar stored in carbohydrates...it all represents energy and is governed by the 2nd law of thermodynamics...

The very idea that thermodynamics only to thermal energy has to be one of the stupidest statements you have made yet...at this point, you may as well admit it..you have never taken a class in thermodynamics..even at the high school level as the first thing you would have learned is that the laws of thermodynamics speak to all energy in all forms.

Once more I am laughing in your face...and curious as to whether ian will step in to correct you on your gross misunderstanding of what thermodynamics is.

 

[IanC]

The word thermodynamics is in the phrase "the second law of thermodynamics for a reason" That law says nothing about boulders or potential energy.

STEP RIGHT UP and tell us all how ignorant you are on the topic of thermodynamics... You clearly don't have the first clue. Here is a primer intended for students going into the hard sciences to give them a handle on the basics of thermodynamics.


ENERGY AND THERMODYNAMICS (Biology)

Page 1 clip:
A hands-on module designed to give biology, chemistry, and physics students concrete experiences related to the concepts of thermodynamics.

Page 4 clip: Energy: is the ability to do work or bring about a change What is the study of energy called? thermodynamics

Following that statement is a chart..it describes the two states of energy and shows examples...The two states are kinetic energy and potential energy. Under the heading of kinetic energy is listed the energy of motion and examples are thermal, light, and electrical energy...under the heading of potential energy is listed Energy of position or stored energy...examples are chemical, gradient, and gravitational energy.

Next is shows a cube on an incline...at the top of the incline the cube is described as potential energy...as the cube moves down the incline, it is described as kinetic energy...this also applies to boulders at the top of a hill, or water running downhill.

Bottom line...ALL energy obeys the 2nd law of thermodynamics and it speaks to all energy...whether it is radiant energy from a heater, a hot wheels car rolling down the track, an electron moving along the wiring in your home, water running down a stream, or stored behind a dam, or sugar stored in carbohydrates...it all represents energy and is governed by the 2nd law of thermodynamics...

The very idea that thermodynamics only to thermal energy has to be one of the stupidest statements you have made yet...at this point, you may as well admit it..you have never taken a class in thermodynamics..even at the high school level as the first thing you would have learned is that the laws of thermodynamics speak to all energy in all forms.

Once more I am laughing in your face...and curious as to whether ian will step in to correct you on your gross misunderstanding of what thermodynamics is.

How does the biological storage of energy fit into your version of the SLoT?

In my version entropy can decrease in one part of the system as long as the system as a whole increases.

In your version any decrease anywhere is strictly forbidden. Right down to an electron jumping orbitals. Wasn't it you that said atoms had to emit a photon of lower energy than the one it absorbed to become excited? Hahahaha.

 

[Wuwei]

You still really don't understand. Here it is more succinctly:
Not all energy is thermal energy.
A boulder on a hill is potential energy. That is not thermal energy.

Potential energy can turn into thermal energy like a boulder rolling down the hill.
The potential energy will convert frictional forces or collisions to thermal energy.

The statement: "it is not possible for thermal energy to move spontaneously from cool to warm" does not apply to a boulder potential energy turning into thermal energy.
The entropy formulation of SLoT does apply to boulders. That is not the "one way" movement of heat.

That is what I originally said and you missed it and quoted what you thought was a counterexample. You can't just copy something from the web and think it applies just because some of the words seem to be relevant. You must understand it before you post it.

 

[IanC]

You still really don't understand. Here it is more succinctly:
Not all energy is thermal energy.
A boulder on a hill is potential energy. That is not thermal energy.

Potential energy can turn into thermal energy like a boulder rolling down the hill.
The potential energy will convert frictional forces or collisions to thermal energy.

The statement: "it is not possible for thermal energy to move spontaneously from cool to warm" does not apply to a boulder potential energy turning into thermal energy.
The entropy formulation of SLoT does apply to boulders. That is not the "one way" movement of heat.

That is what I originally said and you missed it and quoted what you thought was a counterexample. You can't just copy something from the web and think it applies just because some of the words seem to be relevant. You must understand it before you post it.

SSDD uses correct statements in the wrong context. Everything is always black or white even though reality is always muddled with opposing factors.

 

[SSDD]

How does the biological storage of energy fit into your version of the SLoT?

Unlike you, I don't have a "version" of the second law...I accept the statement at face value.

 

[SSDD]

You still really don't understand. Here it is more succinctly:
Not all energy is thermal energy.
A boulder on a hill is potential energy. That is not thermal energy.

Makes no difference...the second law of thermodynamics addresses all forms of energy and all forms of energy are subject to its restrictions and limitations.

And what you said was:

"The word thermodynamics is in the phrase "the second law of thermodynamics for a reason" That law says nothing about boulders or potential energy."

Clearly you were implying that the second law of thermodynamics was only about thermal energy and not about other types...you were wrong...anyone who has ever taken a physics course knows that the second law addresses all forms of energy. Why try to weasel out of such a blatantly obvious statement?...why not simply admit how wrong you were?

 

[SSDD]

You still really don't understand. Here it is more succinctly:
Not all energy is thermal energy.
A boulder on a hill is potential energy. That is not thermal energy.

Potential energy can turn into thermal energy like a boulder rolling down the hill.
The potential energy will convert frictional forces or collisions to thermal energy.

The statement: "it is not possible for thermal energy to move spontaneously from cool to warm" does not apply to a boulder potential energy turning into thermal energy.
The entropy formulation of SLoT does apply to boulders. That is not the "one way" movement of heat.

That is what I originally said and you missed it and quoted what you thought was a counterexample. You can't just copy something from the web and think it applies just because some of the words seem to be relevant. You must understand it before you post it.

SSDD uses correct statements in the wrong context. Everything is always black or white even though reality is always muddled with opposing factors.

I use the statements in their exact context...no interpretation...no adding..no subtracting...and a sentence like, energy can not move spontaneously from cold to warm is a statement in terms of absolutes...there is no room for any shade of gray in such a statement.

 

[Wuwei]

Makes no difference...the second law of thermodynamics addresses all forms of energy and all forms of energy are subject to its restrictions and limitations.

That's true, but a non sequitur.

Clearly you were implying that the second law of thermodynamics was only about thermal energy and not about other types...you were wrong...anyone who has ever taken a physics course knows that the second law addresses all forms of energy. Why try to weasel out of such a blatantly obvious statement?...why not simply admit how wrong you were?

I was referring to the overriding rule of entropy and energy. You were referring only to heat.

 

[Wuwei]

I use the statements in their exact context...no interpretation...no adding..no subtracting...and a sentence like, energy can not move spontaneously from cold to warm is a statement in terms of absolutes...there is no room for any shade of gray in such a statement.

Not all energy is heat. In your exact context, you only refer to thermal energy.

 

[SSDD]

Makes no difference...the second law of thermodynamics addresses all forms of energy and all forms of energy are subject to its restrictions and limitations.

That's true, but a non sequitur.

Clearly you were implying that the second law of thermodynamics was only about thermal energy and not about other types...you were wrong...anyone who has ever taken a physics course knows that the second law addresses all forms of energy. Why try to weasel out of such a blatantly obvious statement?...why not simply admit how wrong you were?

I was referring to the overriding rule of entropy and energy. You were referring only to heat.

No...when I speak of the 2nd law, I am speaking of all forms of energy which is why I bothered to mention boulders at the top of a hill...you believed that THERMOdynamics only dealt with thermal energy and said pretty clearly that that was why it was called THERMOdynamics. Spoken like a true putz...and now you are trying to weasel out of it in a manger that must make all putzes proud.

 

[SSDD]

I use the statements in their exact context...no interpretation...no adding..no subtracting...and a sentence like, energy can not move spontaneously from cold to warm is a statement in terms of absolutes...there is no room for any shade of gray in such a statement.

Not all energy is heat. In your exact context, you only refer to thermal energy.

Of course not all energy is heat...but all heat is energy and energy will not move spontaneously, in any amount from cool to warm.

 

[Flash]

Moon Bats be like stupid.

 

[Wuwei]

No...when I speak of the 2nd law, I am speaking of all forms of energy which is why I bothered to mention boulders at the top of a hill...you believed that THERMOdynamics only dealt with thermal energy and said pretty clearly that that was why it was called THERMOdynamics. Spoken like a true putz...and now you are trying to weasel out of it in a manger that must make all putzes proud.

Tell my why a boulder sitting on top of a hill and not moving has anything to do with thermodynamics.

 

[Flash]

My family own property on the Gulf. It has been in the family for over 100 years. No difference now than it was when I was a kid back in the 1950s and difference from the pictures taken in the 1920s and 30s.

Moon Bats be stupid believing in this AGW scam.

 

[mudwhistle]

I'm not an expert on this subject....so I choose not to comment on something that isn't in my wheelhouse.

 

[Wuwei]

Of course not all energy is heat...but all heat is energy and energy will not move spontaneously, in any amount from cool to warm.

All surfaces radiate in all directions. There is nothing outside that surface that can stop the vibrating atoms from radiating EM energy. You have not given a reason why you think that is false. This is science not false gut feelings.

 

[SSDD]

No...when I speak of the 2nd law, I am speaking of all forms of energy which is why I bothered to mention boulders at the top of a hill...you believed that THERMOdynamics only dealt with thermal energy and said pretty clearly that that was why it was called THERMOdynamics. Spoken like a true putz...and now you are trying to weasel out of it in a manger that must make all putzes proud.

Tell my why a boulder sitting on top of a hill and not moving has anything to do with thermodynamics.

Because it represents potential energy...and if you start it rolling, it demonstrates transitional kinetic energy. It is unfortunate that all of this has escaped you for so long...this is basic stuff...and if you don't know this, then all you believe you know about thermodynamics is suspect.

 

[SSDD]

Of course not all energy is heat...but all heat is energy and energy will not move spontaneously, in any amount from cool to warm.

All surfaces radiate in all directions. There is nothing outside that surface that can stop the vibrating atoms from radiating EM energy. You have not given a reason why you think that is false. This is science not false gut feelings.

Of course they do...if they are in a vacuum not in the presence of other matter..and you can't demonstrate in any real way that energy emits in all directions from an object out here in the real world...we have never detected energy moving from a cool object to a warmer object with an instrument at ambient temperature. The instrument is certainly capable of measuring incoming energy but no such measurement has ever been made because energy does not move from cool objects to warmer objects.

And what you are giving me is hypothesis based on models...not anything actually observed or measured in the real world...again, unable to differentiate between what is real and what is not.

 

[Wuwei]

No...when I speak of the 2nd law, I am speaking of all forms of energy which is why I bothered to mention boulders at the top of a hill...you believed that THERMOdynamics only dealt with thermal energy and said pretty clearly that that was why it was called THERMOdynamics. Spoken like a true putz...and now you are trying to weasel out of it in a manger that must make all putzes proud.

Tell my why a boulder sitting on top of a hill and not moving has anything to do with thermodynamics.

Because it represents potential energy...and if you start it rolling, it demonstrates transitional kinetic energy. It is unfortunate that all of this has escaped you for so long...this is basic stuff...and if you don't know this, then all you believe you know about thermodynamics is suspect.

Everyone knows about translational KE. You missed the point, and posted another non sequitur. A boulder sitting on top of a hill and not moving has nothing to do with thermodynamics.