North America Before Global Warming

[Liability]

ack! that glacier is crushing my house!

It's the great CO2 glacier eating spaghetti monster, Charlie Brown!

Forget the pasta. Let's talk coffee.

CAFE standards are God's Will.

Granted, they haven't done shit except to get people killed -- lots of people -- but still, God's Will!

 

[konradv]

Yeah none of that warming was caused by man either, crazy! But Global Warming Alarmists will have some sort of excuse to support their claims because they think it matters one way or the other.

The point you're missing is that that happened in response to a natural cycle. Current AGW theory is that we're in an unnatural cycle brought on by man-made emissions. One occurred over tens of thousands of years, while the concern over AGW is that it's happening in hundreds. Get the difference?

 

[konradv]

Like what part of the Goldilocks and the Three Bears story didn't our chum, Crusader Frank, not entirely understand, class?

Was it that he doesn't understand that the opposite of too hot is too cold, or is it that he doesn't understand the concept of "just right"?

I think you don't understand that the world is an open system...not a walled off room that can be controlled. The Earth is NEVER just right. Anyone who believes that exhibits a complete lack of understanding of the natural world.

What you don't seem to understand is the time course. How can you compare something that happened over tens of thousands of years to something that's happening in hundreds?

 

[editec]

Like what part of the Goldilocks and the Three Bears story didn't our chum, Crusader Frank, not entirely understand, class?

Was it that he doesn't understand that the opposite of too hot is too cold, or is it that he doesn't understand the concept of "just right"?

There has never been and never will be "Just right" there are too many variable that are always, well, varying.

Clue: Get one today

The climate was just about "just right" for about the last 50,000 years, give or take the occassional "mini ice age."

Mankind has enjoyed this "just right" climate about that long since the last serious ICE AGE retreated

The climate appears to be migrating to the "too hot" catagory of climate.

Now there doesn't appear to be much debate about the fact that the atmosphere (and ocean) are warming up. Those numbers are fairly hard to deny

So the only real question is: why?

And the other question, and the one that is probably going to be addressed eventually is:

Why is our climate changing so much faster than it typically has in the last BILLION years?

Some claim that mankind's industrial pollution is to blame.

Others say that it is perfectly natural and has nothing whatever do with human activity.

Me?

Just as you noted, I really haven't a clue WHY this is happening, and I am more than willing to admit I do not know why this is happening.

You apparently do think you KNOW why this is happening.

Pray do tell us your theory as to why the atmosphere and oceans are warming up at a rate that is so unusual.

Unusual solar activity?

Solar activity is known to increase (or decrease) the amount of energy that the earth absorbs, for example.

Except solar activity have never been known to so drastically change the RATE of heating or cooling.

More typically heating and cooling from solar changes in activity typically takes a much longer time than a century to effect the climate.

So please do give me a clue.

Why is the earth's atmosphere and oceans apparently heating up?

 

[IanC]

Like what part of the Goldilocks and the Three Bears story didn't our chum, Crusader Frank, not entirely understand, class?

Was it that he doesn't understand that the opposite of too hot is too cold, or is it that he doesn't understand the concept of "just right"?

I think you don't understand that the world is an open system...not a walled off room that can be controlled. The Earth is NEVER just right. Anyone who believes that exhibits a complete lack of understanding of the natural world.

What you don't seem to understand is the time course. How can you compare something that happened over tens of thousands of years to something that's happening in hundreds?

What time period are you talking about? Be specific. Are you talking about the last 5 years, 50 years, 500 years, 5000 years or something else. And could you also describe how much cooling or heating that you are talking about.

 

[konradv]

I think you don't understand that the world is an open system...not a walled off room that can be controlled. The Earth is NEVER just right. Anyone who believes that exhibits a complete lack of understanding of the natural world.

What you don't seem to understand is the time course. How can you compare something that happened over tens of thousands of years to something that's happening in hundreds?

What time period are you talking about? Be specific. Are you talking about the last 5 years, 50 years, 500 years, 5000 years or something else. And could you also describe how much cooling or heating that you are talking about.

I've always talked about the same time period, which you would know if you'd paid attention, instead trying to cloud the issue with irrelevancies. For those new to the topic, I refer to the time since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. I also very seldom talk about heating and cooling, but rather, GHG concentrations. We know what they do. We know they've been going up since the IR, 25-35% depending on who you read. Therefore, if the trend continues, how can you ecpect anything but warming? Can you answer that?

 

[The T]

Like what part of the Goldilocks and the Three Bears story didn't our chum, Crusader Frank, not entirely understand, class?

Was it that he doesn't understand that the opposite of too hot is too cold, or is it that he doesn't understand the concept of "just right"?

I think you don't understand that the world is an open system...not a walled off room that can be controlled. The Earth is NEVER just right. Anyone who believes that exhibits a complete lack of understanding of the natural world.

And whom determines what's normal? Under what pretense?

There is only one. That would be nature, better known as God.

 

[konradv]

Like what part of the Goldilocks and the Three Bears story didn't our chum, Crusader Frank, not entirely understand, class?

Was it that he doesn't understand that the opposite of too hot is too cold, or is it that he doesn't understand the concept of "just right"?

I think you don't understand that the world is an open system...not a walled off room that can be controlled. The Earth is NEVER just right. Anyone who believes that exhibits a complete lack of understanding of the natural world.

And whom determines what's normal? Under what pretense?

There is only one. That would be nature, better known as God.

I'd say that humans emitting more GHGs in days than all the volcanoes on earth do in a year isn't normal. It certainly isn't natural that we've had relatively stable temps since the last Ice Age, but now we've added 25-35% more gases to the atmopsphere that have the potential to effect the climate drastically.

 

[DiveCon]

I think you don't understand that the world is an open system...not a walled off room that can be controlled. The Earth is NEVER just right. Anyone who believes that exhibits a complete lack of understanding of the natural world.

And whom determines what's normal? Under what pretense?

There is only one. That would be nature, better known as God.

I'd say that humans emitting more GHGs in days than all the volcanoes on earth do in a year isn't normal. It certainly isn't natural that we've had relatively stable temps since the last Ice Age, but now we've added 25-35% more gases to the atmopsphere that have the potential to effect the climate drastically.

proof?

 

[Liability]

And whom determines what's normal? Under what pretense?

There is only one. That would be nature, better known as God.

I'd say that humans emitting more GHGs in days than all the volcanoes on earth do in a year isn't normal. It certainly isn't natural that we've had relatively stable temps since the last Ice Age, but now we've added 25-35% more gases to the atmopsphere that have the potential to effect the climate drastically.

proof?

How can you demand proof when he's just now finished making shit up?

Time will be required.

 

[konradv]

And whom determines what's normal? Under what pretense?

There is only one. That would be nature, better known as God.

I'd say that humans emitting more GHGs in days than all the volcanoes on earth do in a year isn't normal. It certainly isn't natural that we've had relatively stable temps since the last Ice Age, but now we've added 25-35% more gases to the atmopsphere that have the potential to effect the climate drastically.

proof?

Which produces more CO2, volcanic or human activity?

I guess they're making things uo, too? It's the people that say volcanoes are the main source of CO2 that are making things up!!!

 

[konradv]

I'd say that humans emitting more GHGs in days than all the volcanoes on earth do in a year isn't normal. It certainly isn't natural that we've had relatively stable temps since the last Ice Age, but now we've added 25-35% more gases to the atmopsphere that have the potential to effect the climate drastically.

proof?

How can you demand proof when he's just now finished making shit up?

Time will be required.

When did I make you up?

 

[DiveCon]

I'd say that humans emitting more GHGs in days than all the volcanoes on earth do in a year isn't normal. It certainly isn't natural that we've had relatively stable temps since the last Ice Age, but now we've added 25-35% more gases to the atmopsphere that have the potential to effect the climate drastically.

proof?

Which produces more CO2, volcanic or human activity?

I guess they're making things uo, too? It's the people that say volcanoes are the main source of CO2 that are making things up!!!

uh, you claimed GHG's, not just CO2

 

[Liability]

I'd say that humans emitting more GHGs in days than all the volcanoes on earth do in a year isn't normal. It certainly isn't natural that we've had relatively stable temps since the last Ice Age, but now we've added 25-35% more gases to the atmopsphere that have the potential to effect the climate drastically.

proof?

Which produces more CO2, volcanic or human activity?

I guess they're making things uo, too? It's the people that say volcanoes are the main source of CO2 that are making things up!!!

Ho hum. You cite to the USGS survey which would normally be a pretty impressive citation. But upon looking at your linkie one discovers that they STATE their contention but they do not provide the information for how they calculated their numbers.

Look again: Which produces more CO2, volcanic or human activity? They SAY "Because while 200 million tonnes of CO2 is large, the global fossil fuel CO2 emissions for 2003 tipped the scales at 26.8 billion tonnes." But their source? Well, it's hard to say.

It's not clear that they even DO "say." They imply that they rely on data from "the U.S. Department of Energy's Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center (CDIAC) website (http://cdiac.ornl.gov/)" but we have no clue how reliable the data it reports may be (since 1751 ???)(really???): http://cdiac.ornl.gov/ftp/ndp030/global.1751_2007.ems I don't see any evidence THERE of 26.8 billion tonnes in 2003.

You have a right to cite (and accept) the assertions of the U.S. Geological Survey. But it would carry more weight if we knew where they got their data from, etc.

 

[Liability]

And whom determines what's normal? Under what pretense?

There is only one. That would be nature, better known as God.

I'd say that humans emitting more GHGs in days than all the volcanoes on earth do in a year isn't normal. It certainly isn't natural that we've had relatively stable temps since the last Ice Age, but now we've added 25-35% more gases to the atmopsphere that have the potential to effect the climate drastically.

proof?

Well, you know, he HAS made that claim before: http://www.usmessageboard.com/2784237-post15.html

Also, nice catch, Dive. He also DID say (initially) GHG's, but when pressed, he "supported" his contention by reference to CO2.

 

[The T]

And whom determines what's normal? Under what pretense?

There is only one. That would be nature, better known as God.

I'd say that humans emitting more GHGs in days than all the volcanoes on earth do in a year isn't normal. It certainly isn't natural that we've had relatively stable temps since the last Ice Age, but now we've added 25-35% more gases to the atmopsphere that have the potential to effect the climate drastically.

proof?

There isn't. Only crafty models concocted to reflect what they want us to belive.

 

[westwall]

Yeah none of that warming was caused by man either, crazy! But Global Warming Alarmists will have some sort of excuse to support their claims because they think it matters one way or the other.

The point you're missing is that that happened in response to a natural cycle. Current AGW theory is that we're in an unnatural cycle brought on by man-made emissions. One occurred over tens of thousands of years, while the concern over AGW is that it's happening in hundreds. Get the difference?

And the theory has failed every test. The theory is based on computer models that can't recreate their own predictions. The models need to be updated every hour or they begin to diverge from actual observations at warp speed. Models that can't recreate what we know happened a day ago.

This is what you place your faith in.

 

[westwall]

Like what part of the Goldilocks and the Three Bears story didn't our chum, Crusader Frank, not entirely understand, class?

Was it that he doesn't understand that the opposite of too hot is too cold, or is it that he doesn't understand the concept of "just right"?

I think you don't understand that the world is an open system...not a walled off room that can be controlled. The Earth is NEVER just right. Anyone who believes that exhibits a complete lack of understanding of the natural world.

What you don't seem to understand is the time course. How can you compare something that happened over tens of thousands of years to something that's happening in hundreds?

How long did the Roman Warming Period last? How long did the 6th Century Climate Catastrophe (when it got real cold) last? How long did the Medieval Warming Period last? How long did the Little Ice Age last?

I will answer for you....a few hundred years each. You'll notice hot, cold, hot, cold, hot....
You should be able to understand the pattern, my four year old girl does so I would hope you can figure it out as well.


Care to show me anytime in that sequence where man was driving SUV's around?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I think you don't understand that the world is an open system...not a walled off room that can be controlled. The Earth is NEVER just right. Anyone who believes that exhibits a complete lack of understanding of the natural world.

What you don't seem to understand is the time course. How can you compare something that happened over tens of thousands of years to something that's happening in hundreds?

How long did the Roman Warming Period last? How long did the 6th Century Climate Catastrophe (when it got real cold) last? How long did the Medieval Warming Period last? How long did the Little Ice Age last?

I will answer for you....a few hundred years each. You'll notice hot, cold, hot, cold, hot....
You should be able to understand the pattern, my four year old girl does so I would hope you can figure it out as well.


Care to show me anytime in that sequence where man was driving SUV's around?

Brutus gave this to Julius Caesar right before the Ides of March. Low mileage! Just driven to the Pantheon and back once!

 

[westwall]

Like what part of the Goldilocks and the Three Bears story didn't our chum, Crusader Frank, not entirely understand, class?

Was it that he doesn't understand that the opposite of too hot is too cold, or is it that he doesn't understand the concept of "just right"?

There has never been and never will be "Just right" there are too many variable that are always, well, varying.

Clue: Get one today

The climate was just about "just right" for about the last 50,000 years, give or take the occassional "mini ice age."

Mankind has enjoyed this "just right" climate about that long since the last serious ICE AGE retreated

The climate appears to be migrating to the "too hot" catagory of climate.

Now there doesn't appear to be much debate about the fact that the atmosphere (and ocean) are warming up. Those numbers are fairly hard to deny

So the only real question is: why?

And the other question, and the one that is probably going to be addressed eventually is:

Why is our climate changing so much faster than it typically has in the last BILLION years?

Some claim that mankind's industrial pollution is to blame.

Others say that it is perfectly natural and has nothing whatever do with human activity.

Me?

Just as you noted, I really haven't a clue WHY this is happening, and I am more than willing to admit I do not know why this is happening.

You apparently do think you KNOW why this is happening.

Pray do tell us your theory as to why the atmosphere and oceans are warming up at a rate that is so unusual.

Unusual solar activity?

Solar activity is known to increase (or decrease) the amount of energy that the earth absorbs, for example.

Except solar activity have never been known to so drastically change the RATE of heating or cooling.

More typically heating and cooling from solar changes in activity typically takes a much longer time than a century to effect the climate.

So please do give me a clue.

Why is the earth's atmosphere and oceans apparently heating up?

The last 50,000 years give or take a mini ice age huh? Are you familiar with the Pleistocene Era? The Pleistocene began about 2.58 million years ago and was witness to 20 periods of continental glaciation. It ended around 10,000 to 15,000 years ago. We are now in what is known as the Holocene Period. It is also an interglacial period. From 10 to 15 thousand years ago all the way back to around 41,000 years before the present time there was an ice sheet approximately 3,900 meters thick over around 30% of the worlds surface. Sea levels were 140 meters less than today.

Yoe REALLY need to take a geology class.