No More Foreign Wars

[irosie91]

Ok so what IS IT you ARE saying?

many things including the FACT that anyone who IMAGINED
that Iraq was involved in 9-11-01----was just stupid. The
accusation that "we was told...." is utter bullshit

 

[Couchpotato]

many things including the FACT that anyone who IMAGINED
that Iraq was involved in 9-11-01----was just stupid. The
accusation that "we was told...." is utter bullshit

I'll ask one more time. What is it you are saying. How did you get from that to the alternative being yearly 9-11 attacks? What you've stated here has zero to do with the comment I engaged with.

 

[irosie91]

I'll ask one more time. What is it you are saying. How did you get from that to the alternative being yearly 9-11 attacks? What you've stated here has zero to do with the comment I engaged with.

ME? I never said anything about 9-11 YEARLY ATTACKS ----you got the
wrong person

 

[Couchpotato]

sorta true----maybe----but not predictable at the time. Correlation is not Causation

This is you right? You're commenting on a post about Iraq's involvement or lack thereof in 9-11 or any terrorism in general...

 

[irosie91]

This is you right? You're commenting on a post about Iraq's involvement or lack thereof in 9-11 or any terrorism in general...

no I am commenting on the OUTCOME of the war---to wit the present SHIITE country of Iraq aligned with Iran

 

[Couchpotato]

no I am commenting on the OUTCOME of the war---to wit the present SHIITE country of Iraq aligned with Iran

and that comment is what exactly?

 

[Mushroom]

Tell that to the 220 Marines who lost their lives there.

Sorry, trying to play stupid pity guilt trips on me like that is always a failure.

And does that somehow mean it was not a UN Peacekeeping mission?

 

[Couchpotato]

Mushroom

You're disagreeing that 220 Marines died in Lebanon as part of our involvement there?

 

[Couchpotato]

Sorry, trying to play stupid pity guilt trips on me like that is always a failure.

And does that somehow mean it was not a UN Peacekeeping mission?

Doesnt, but the US was most definitely involved and lets be quite clear without US support both militarily and monetarily the UN doesn't exist. Or if it does it's completely ineffectual and is of no consequence.

 

[Mushroom]

You are correct regarding the reflagging during the tanker war. Not bad for a ground-pounder!

Remember, I was a "Ground Pounder" during the Tanker War, and was paying attention to what was going on in the area. The same way decades later when I was watching "live feed" via RADAR of what was going on off the Somali coast with the Maersk Alabama. There is a kind of "Amalgamated RADAR" system that the US military uses, that incorporates RADAR takes from around the world. It is not perfect, but it can give commanders a good idea of the situation almost anywhere in the world. And during that week in 2009 when things were slow at night, I would change our local feed to watch what was going on. And seeing the Maersk Alabama and Navy ships moving around the area.

Of course, during the Tanker War I was a Marine. So paid a lot more attention to things involving "Naval Affairs" than some schlub in the Army.

 

[irosie91]

and that comment is what exactly?

that it was not predictable

 

[Mushroom]

Did you know that most of those "bases" are facilities on foreign military bases?

Hell, I bet that they are not even aware that it works both ways.

We have foreign military bases in the US. Germany has a rather large presence at Fort Bliss and Holloman Air Force Base. Japan also used to have a large presence at Fort Bliss, but I think that closed up a few years ago. There was also a rather large contingent of Taiwan Navy on Mare Island when I was there in the 1990s.

In the 2000s when I was at Fort Bliss, it was almost impossible to miss the presence of the German Army on the base. They had their own schools, their own base housing area, even a big chunk of the Commissary was set aside for food items from Germany. It was quite literally a German Military Base inside of a US Army Base. Such agreements are amazingly common between allied nations, but I am sure that most have absolutely no idea about things like that.

And most of the "bases" are really no more than a dozen or so Airmen or Sailors working on an allied nation air base or port. Doing things like scheduling layover and resupply missions for our own planes and ships that arrive.

I know I still laugh to this day whenever I watch "Captain America: Civil War", as the big battle at the end takes place at the airport in Leipzig, Germany. What was once long ago Leipzig, East Germany. I spent several days at that airport, as there was a US Air Force "Base" there. For all military charter flights going to and from the Middle East, there is a 12-24 hour layover in Leipzig. That is to give us on them some time to stretch out for a bit, and allow the crew their mandatory rest and time off before continuing to our final destination.

So yes, there is a "US Air Force" base in Leipzig. I think it is about two dozen people, who schedule things like food and sleeping quarters for those that are passing through on their way to or from the Middle East. I know myself and a few other "older ones" that were there also got a chuckle out of the fact that if we had been there two decades earlier, we likely would have been shot.

 

[Mushroom]

The point is that many of these bases are tiny or are joint bases with our allies. Also, many of the bases and facilities that existed in the Med during my days are gone. Souda bay Crete, La Madelena, Sicily, Athens, Greece all once had naval bases, or activities.

Hell, even in the US.

My first duty station is a "White Elephant" that the Navy can't get rid of. An "Ammunition Depot", the actual mission of the base ended when the Long Beach Naval Base closed in 1997. That left Seal Beach with no actual mission anymore, but the Navy also can't do anything with the base. They are simply stuck with it, so it is now changing into a kind of Navy-Marine Corps Reserve Center.

And while Camp Lejune is still there, one place I spent a couple of months doing training is gone. Fort Sherman, along with all of our other bases in Panama no longer exist.

And a couple of years after I left Mare Island, it also shut down. Hundreds of bases have been close in the last three decades. And interestingly enough, there have been long term talks into reopening some that would surprise most people.

There has been a long term negotiation between the US and Vietnam for the US to return. In 2010 Vietnam reopened a part of Cam Ranh Bay to foreign naval ships. And quite a few US Navy ships have pulled into there, including the USS John McCain (named after the Father and Grandfather not the Senator). And there have been talks for over a decade between the two nations, as Vietnam really wants more of a US Navy presence in the area.

And the Philippines is also in talks with the US to try and get at least some of the bases back into operation. For the same reason Vietnam is, as a form of protection from an increasingly belligerent PRC.

One thing that the US actually has a damned good reputation for, and that is when our base is no longer wanted we leave. Of course, that also depends on a great many things, like who owns the land and the SOFA between the nations. But most of those "Overseas Bases", the land actually belongs to the host nation. And as was seen in both Iraq and Afghanistan as well as Kuwait, when the SOFA expires and the host nation does not want them there, the US leaves.

Probably the only major exception is Gitmo. That was founded in 1903 with land the US actually leased from Cuba. And when that lease was signed over 120 years ago, it was an open ended lease that the US could renew as long as they wanted to. And ironically, in order to terminate the lease both parties have to agree to that. So quite technically, even if the US decided to walk away Cuba could enact their clause and force them to remain (the Navy would still likely leave the base, but it would remain vacant and the US have to continue making lease payments). That is about the only exception I am aware of, as unlike all other US bases I have ever heard of or visited on foreign soil, the US actually does lease that base and it is not "donated" for their use from the host nation.

 

[Mushroom]

No one on either side would have voted for that war knowing then what we know now.

No one?

Not even with the massive number of mass graves containing thousands of bodies from the Saddam era?



To me, anybody that believes that the 2003 war was wrong and Saddam should not have been removed are no different from somebody saying that WWII was wrong and Hitler should not have been removed. How people can willingly ignore the hundreds of thousands tortured and killed there at the hands of a homicidal madman to me are beneath contempt.

 

[longly]

It makes the claim of no wars during trump a lie. Stopping Putin is OK in my book.

Well, you and I agree on that; failure to stop Putin could have devastating consequences for our grandchildren, I'm assuming you have grandchildren. Successful Aggression tends to lead to a more aggression and if Putin ever decided to try to take Alaska, we'd be in for a season of hell. Perhaps some of you think of the Arctic as a winter Wonderland; I can assure you it's not it's just downright bitterly brutally cold. In winter, everything is hard to do, everything takes more effort and more energy. In places, you can't even build an igloo for protection from the weather, there's not enough snow brutally cold cyclone gale winds blow it away. Words fail me, all I can say is for the sake of our grandchildren Putin needs to lose in Ukraine or at least not win.

 

[Couchpotato]

No one?

Not even with the massive number of mass graves containing thousands of bodies from the Saddam era?



To me, anybody that believes that the 2003 war was wrong and Saddam should not have been removed are no different from somebody saying that WWII was wrong and Hitler should not have been removed. How people can willingly ignore the hundreds of thousands tortured and killed there at the hands of a homicidal madman to me are beneath contempt.

I dont think the Iraqi's had the DNC playbook. Their dead people dont vote.....

 

[Mushroom]

without US support both militarily and monetarily the UN doesn't exist. Or if it does it's completely ineffectual and is of no consequence.

And please tell us what the last "effective" UN missions were?

I know in my lifetime, the best were probably the two that involved Iraq. The US went in with a clear mission, did it, then largely left.

And another one in my lifetime was Cyprus. Where a Buffer Zone was created in Cyprus, to keep the Greeks and Turks from killing each other. An operation that actually has never had US support, the majority of forces involved there were originally Australia and New Zealand, but now Canada does most of the "heavy lifting" in that mission. And they have been able to keep the peace for over five decades.

And the French were in Lebanon before the US arrived, and remained there even after the US left.

No, the problem like I see so often is that you really do not know any facts. You have some biased beliefs, and claim to know everything based on those biased beliefs.

But hey, let's go through some of the current UN Peacekeeping missions, shall we?

Haiti, ongoing for over a year now. The largest two nations committing troops are Benin and Kenya. Number of US forces involved, 0.
Kashmir, between Pakistan and India. This has been ongoing since 1949. Number of US forces involved, 0.
Cyprus, that started in 1964. Number of US forces involved, 0.
Kosovo, that started in 1999. Number of US forces involved, 0.
The Middle East, started in 1948 to try and keep the peace between Israel and their neighbors. The US has not been involved there since the early 1950s. Number of US forces involved, 0.
There is a second UN force in the region doing a similar mission. Started in 1974 after the Yom Kippur War, the US was never involved in it. Number of US forces involved, 0.
Then there is Lebanon, formed in 1978. The US left that mission which is still ongoing in 1984. Number of US forces involved, 0.

Sorry, you are making these claims, but looking through the large number of UN missions, the US was not involved at all in most of them. Primarily only called in when the UN needed a "heavy hitter" to try and break up the warring sides. And not just the US, France is also a nation often called in for the same reason. And I would defy anybody to say that the French Forces were any less effective in that mission than US forces were.

 

[Couchpotato]

that it was not predictable

Of course it was for exactly the reasons I stated. Saddam was prior to invading Kuwait being propped up by the US in the 80's for that reason. Even post 1991 Iraq war the US's presence in the region kept Iran from exerting any influence in Iraq.

 

[Mushroom]

Successful Aggression tends to lead to a more aggression

I had thought that among reasonable individuals, the concept of appeasement to governments like that had been put to rest in WWII. All three of the Axis Powers had appeasement used in the hopes that "just one more territorial gain" would be enough. But it simply never worked, that gain only emboldened them to ask for more territory, then to demand it. Then when still not given, they took it by force.

Myself, I see those that preach "appeasement" as little more than children. Living in a fantasy world where giving a bully something will satisfy them and they will not ask for anything else. But reality has shown that the bullies of the world never have enough, and they will always demand more.

 

[Couchpotato]

I had thought that among reasonable individuals, the concept of appeasement to governments like that had been put to rest in WWII. All three of the Axis Powers had appeasement used in the hopes that "just one more territorial gain" would be enough. But it simply never worked, that gain only emboldened them to ask for more territory, then to demand it. Then when still not given, they took it by force.

Myself, I see those that preach "appeasement" as little more than children. Living in a fantasy world where giving a bully something will satisfy them and they will not ask for anything else. But reality has shown that the bullies of the world never have enough, and they will always demand more.

How do you have this little understanding of the causes of WW2?