No men around, and you want a baby? Sleep with your dad!

[irosie91]

A catholic lecturing on morals is kind of an oxymoron, wouldn't you think? To say absolutely nothing of a muslim lecturing on morals.

Why would you say that? You all worship the same fucked up magic sky Pixie.

In the Koran, Lot (or as Muslims call him, Lut) is considered a prophet and they deny the story about the drunken sex with his daughters or offering them up for gang rape. While this is "Disneyfying" the original story, at least they are trying to make it morally consistent.

Do you happen to know what the koran says about Jezebel?

I do not recall anything about Jezebel in the Koran.

 

[BluePhantom]

Genesis 19:30-38


Lot and His Daughters

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37 And the firstborn bare a son, and called his nameMoab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Ben-ammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.



These are the values we should be living by? Incest?

Whoa! Whoa! First off, Lot was drunk off his ass and had no knowledge of either event. Second, the Bible never says that is what one should do, it simply says that is what happened. Lastly, having a son in those days was a matter of life and death. There were no retirement plans, no 401ks, no welfare, no social security, etc. When you got old, you were taken care of by your children. If you had no children you became a beggar, a prostitute, or you starved to death. This is precisely why when a man died without having a son, his brother was required to get his brother's widow pregnant. This is why in Genesis 38:8-10 Onan was cursed for refusing to get his brother's widow pregnant. By withdrawing prior to ejaculation he was effectively sentencing her to death or destitution. The Bible is full of stories of women who had no sons, were getting a little older, and went to extraordinary lengths to conceive. But this has nothing to do with lust, morality, or whatever. It has everything to do with the woman ensuring they were going to be taken care of when they got too old to care for themselves.

In regard to Lot's daughters we see the same thing. Lot and his daughters had escaped Sodom and he refused to re-enter society so they were dwelling in a cave in isolation. His daughters started freaking out, thinking 'oh shit, we need sons or we are going to be fucked' so they did what they felt they had to do to cover their asses. Whether that was a good thing or a bad thing, the Bible doesn't say. But that's the point of the story. One might also argue that there are some messages there about the dangers of living an isolated life and the problems one might run into, or perhaps lessons about patience and not trying to force events to happen against their natural path.

 

[Penelope]

Genesis 19:30-38


Lot and His Daughters

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37 And the firstborn bare a son, and called his nameMoab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Ben-ammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.



These are the values we should be living by? Incest?

Whoa! Whoa! First off, Lot was drunk off his ass and had no knowledge of either event. Second, the Bible never says that is what one should do, it simply says that is what happened. Lastly, having a son in those days was a matter of life and death. There were no retirement plans, no 401ks, no welfare, no social security, etc. When you got old, you were taken care of by your children. If you had no children you became a beggar, a prostitute, or you starved to death. This is precisely why when a man died without having a son, his brother was required to get his brother's widow pregnant. This is why in Genesis 38:8-10 Onan was cursed for refusing to get his brother's widow pregnant. By withdrawing prior to ejaculation he was effectively sentencing her to death or destitution. The Bible is full of stories of women who had no sons, were getting a little older, and went to extraordinary lengths to conceive. But this has nothing to do with lust, morality, or whatever. It has everything to do with the woman ensuring they were going to be taken care of when they got too old to care for themselves.

In regard to Lot's daughters we see the same thing. Lot and his daughters had escaped Sodom and he refused to re-enter society so they were dwelling in a cave in isolation. His daughters started freaking out, thinking 'oh shit, we need sons or we are going to be fucked' so they did what they felt they had to do to cover their asses. Whether that was a good thing or a bad thing, the Bible doesn't say. But that's the point of the story. One might also argue that there are some messages there about the dangers of living an isolated life and the problems one might run into, or perhaps lessons about patience and not trying to force events to happen against their natural path.

I see your making up excuses for this, gee seems to me I would of went to town and had sex instead of getting my father drunk. how did they care for these babies, and where did they get all this wine to get their daddy drunk. I hear this same made up junk all the time, stories to back up the behavior of those in the OT. Sorry its has to be one of the most sick stories in the OT, and Lots wife turning into a pillar of salt.

Gee God saved them just so they could rape and have babies with their Dad.

PS: Gee I'm so glad they didn't have girls.

 

[irosie91]

Genesis 19:30-38


Lot and His Daughters

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37 And the firstborn bare a son, and called his nameMoab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Ben-ammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.



These are the values we should be living by? Incest?

Whoa! Whoa! First off, Lot was drunk off his ass and had no knowledge of either event. Second, the Bible never says that is what one should do, it simply says that is what happened. Lastly, having a son in those days was a matter of life and death. There were no retirement plans, no 401ks, no welfare, no social security, etc. When you got old, you were taken care of by your children. If you had no children you became a beggar, a prostitute, or you starved to death. This is precisely why when a man died without having a son, his brother was required to get his brother's widow pregnant. This is why in Genesis 38:8-10 Onan was cursed for refusing to get his brother's widow pregnant. By withdrawing prior to ejaculation he was effectively sentencing her to death or destitution. The Bible is full of stories of women who had no sons, were getting a little older, and went to extraordinary lengths to conceive. But this has nothing to do with lust, morality, or whatever. It has everything to do with the woman ensuring they were going to be taken care of when they got too old to care for themselves.

Genesis 19:30-38


Lot and His Daughters

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37 And the firstborn bare a son, and called his nameMoab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Ben-ammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.



These are the values we should be living by? Incest?

Whoa! Whoa! First off, Lot was drunk off his ass and had no knowledge of either event. Second, the Bible never says that is what one should do, it simply says that is what happened. Lastly, having a son in those days was a matter of life and death. There were no retirement plans, no 401ks, no welfare, no social security, etc. When you got old, you were taken care of by your children. If you had no children you became a beggar, a prostitute, or you starved to death. This is precisely why when a man died without having a son, his brother was required to get his brother's widow pregnant. This is why in Genesis 38:8-10 Onan was cursed for refusing to get his brother's widow pregnant. By withdrawing prior to ejaculation he was effectively sentencing her to death or destitution. The Bible is full of stories of women who had no sons, were getting a little older, and went to extraordinary lengths to conceive. But this has nothing to do with lust, morality, or whatever. It has everything to do with the woman ensuring they were going to be taken care of when they got too old to care for themselves.

Blue----you are banging your head against a wall----you cannot discuss ancient scriptural writings with idiots. There is an ethos which screws up many of the minds that post here------(so sorry if anyone is offended) ---It's the sunday school interpretation of the bible Kids in sunday school
are kinda given the impression that the NT "supercedes"---
the old out dated, not so good, really lousy "jewish" OT---
which includes "history" or 'legends' which precede
both Christianity and Judaism. The big glitch has been presented here. The sad sunday school victims have come
out of SUNDAY SCHOOL-----imagining that LOT was some sort of NATIONAL JEWISH HERO whose actions represent
JUDAISM and its recommended and legal actions. Sorry
folks-----even ADAM is no hero. You guys are thinking
of the Koran in which any character whom they designate a
Prophet------is a person of impeccable behavior as determined by Islamic law. "LUT" is a muslim prophet.
In Jewish lore----Lot is a person "righteous in his generation"------(a rough translation) ----that means compared to the crap that was going on at his time and
place------he was not so bad. Such a concept is beyond
the minds of some of the schmucks who post here

 

[irosie91]

Genesis 19:30-38


Lot and His Daughters

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37 And the firstborn bare a son, and called his nameMoab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Ben-ammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.



These are the values we should be living by? Incest?

Whoa! Whoa! First off, Lot was drunk off his ass and had no knowledge of either event. Second, the Bible never says that is what one should do, it simply says that is what happened. Lastly, having a son in those days was a matter of life and death. There were no retirement plans, no 401ks, no welfare, no social security, etc. When you got old, you were taken care of by your children. If you had no children you became a beggar, a prostitute, or you starved to death. This is precisely why when a man died without having a son, his brother was required to get his brother's widow pregnant. This is why in Genesis 38:8-10 Onan was cursed for refusing to get his brother's widow pregnant. By withdrawing prior to ejaculation he was effectively sentencing her to death or destitution. The Bible is full of stories of women who had no sons, were getting a little older, and went to extraordinary lengths to conceive. But this has nothing to do with lust, morality, or whatever. It has everything to do with the woman ensuring they were going to be taken care of when they got too old to care for themselves.

In regard to Lot's daughters we see the same thing. Lot and his daughters had escaped Sodom and he refused to re-enter society so they were dwelling in a cave in isolation. His daughters started freaking out, thinking 'oh shit, we need sons or we are going to be fucked' so they did what they felt they had to do to cover their asses. Whether that was a good thing or a bad thing, the Bible doesn't say. But that's the point of the story. One might also argue that there are some messages there about the dangers of living an isolated life and the problems one might run into, or perhaps lessons about patience and not trying to force events to happen against their natural path.

I see your making up excuses for this, gee seems to me I would of went to town and had sex instead of getting my father drunk. how did they care for these babies, and where did they get all this wine to get their daddy drunk. I hear this same made up junk all the time, stories to back up the behavior of those in the OT. Sorry its has to be one of the most sick stories in the OT, and Lots wife turning into a pillar of salt.

Gee God saved them just so they could rape and have babies with their Dad.

PS: Gee I'm so glad they didn't have girls.

Penelope----you claim that you are a health care worker-----
Here is a little lesson for you-----if a patient interpreted
the story of LOT and his DAUGHTERS as do you------
a psychiatrist or neurologist would term the patient's
cognition as "concrete". Now google "concrete thinking" -----I do not really believe that you are as damaged as you
present yourself

 

[Penelope]

Genesis 19:30-38


Lot and His Daughters

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37 And the firstborn bare a son, and called his nameMoab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Ben-ammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.



These are the values we should be living by? Incest?

Whoa! Whoa! First off, Lot was drunk off his ass and had no knowledge of either event. Second, the Bible never says that is what one should do, it simply says that is what happened. Lastly, having a son in those days was a matter of life and death. There were no retirement plans, no 401ks, no welfare, no social security, etc. When you got old, you were taken care of by your children. If you had no children you became a beggar, a prostitute, or you starved to death. This is precisely why when a man died without having a son, his brother was required to get his brother's widow pregnant. This is why in Genesis 38:8-10 Onan was cursed for refusing to get his brother's widow pregnant. By withdrawing prior to ejaculation he was effectively sentencing her to death or destitution. The Bible is full of stories of women who had no sons, were getting a little older, and went to extraordinary lengths to conceive. But this has nothing to do with lust, morality, or whatever. It has everything to do with the woman ensuring they were going to be taken care of when they got too old to care for themselves.

In regard to Lot's daughters we see the same thing. Lot and his daughters had escaped Sodom and he refused to re-enter society so they were dwelling in a cave in isolation. His daughters started freaking out, thinking 'oh shit, we need sons or we are going to be fucked' so they did what they felt they had to do to cover their asses. Whether that was a good thing or a bad thing, the Bible doesn't say. But that's the point of the story. One might also argue that there are some messages there about the dangers of living an isolated life and the problems one might run into, or perhaps lessons about patience and not trying to force events to happen against their natural path.

I see your making up excuses for this, gee seems to me I would of went to town and had sex instead of getting my father drunk. how did they care for these babies, and where did they get all this wine to get their daddy drunk. I hear this same made up junk all the time, stories to back up the behavior of those in the OT. Sorry its has to be one of the most sick stories in the OT, and Lots wife turning into a pillar of salt.

Gee God saved them just so they could rape and have babies with their Dad.

PS: Gee I'm so glad they didn't have girls.

Penelope----you claim that you are a health care worker-----
Here is a little lesson for you-----if a patient interpreted
the story of LOT and his DAUGHTERS as do you------
a psychiatrist or neurologist would term the patient's
cognition as "concrete". Now google "concrete thinking" -----I do not really believe that you are as damaged as you
present yourself

how am I suppose to think about this abstractly? I mean they got their dad drunk and had sex with him. .

 

[irosie91]

Genesis 19:30-38


Lot and His Daughters

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37 And the firstborn bare a son, and called his nameMoab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Ben-ammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.



These are the values we should be living by? Incest?

Whoa! Whoa! First off, Lot was drunk off his ass and had no knowledge of either event. Second, the Bible never says that is what one should do, it simply says that is what happened. Lastly, having a son in those days was a matter of life and death. There were no retirement plans, no 401ks, no welfare, no social security, etc. When you got old, you were taken care of by your children. If you had no children you became a beggar, a prostitute, or you starved to death. This is precisely why when a man died without having a son, his brother was required to get his brother's widow pregnant. This is why in Genesis 38:8-10 Onan was cursed for refusing to get his brother's widow pregnant. By withdrawing prior to ejaculation he was effectively sentencing her to death or destitution. The Bible is full of stories of women who had no sons, were getting a little older, and went to extraordinary lengths to conceive. But this has nothing to do with lust, morality, or whatever. It has everything to do with the woman ensuring they were going to be taken care of when they got too old to care for themselves.

In regard to Lot's daughters we see the same thing. Lot and his daughters had escaped Sodom and he refused to re-enter society so they were dwelling in a cave in isolation. His daughters started freaking out, thinking 'oh shit, we need sons or we are going to be fucked' so they did what they felt they had to do to cover their asses. Whether that was a good thing or a bad thing, the Bible doesn't say. But that's the point of the story. One might also argue that there are some messages there about the dangers of living an isolated life and the problems one might run into, or perhaps lessons about patience and not trying to force events to happen against their natural path.

I see your making up excuses for this, gee seems to me I would of went to town and had sex instead of getting my father drunk. how did they care for these babies, and where did they get all this wine to get their daddy drunk. I hear this same made up junk all the time, stories to back up the behavior of those in the OT. Sorry its has to be one of the most sick stories in the OT, and Lots wife turning into a pillar of salt.

Gee God saved them just so they could rape and have babies with their Dad.

PS: Gee I'm so glad they didn't have girls.

OH----you got "stories to back up biblical characters"-----ok ok -------I understand------we are being afflicted with whatever
stories the nuns told you when you were a ten year old
in catholic school-------try to get over it-------they meant well.
Have you gotten over SANTA and THE EASTER BUNNY
yet??? I am fairly sure that catholic schools have improved since WAY BACK THEN. When I was a kid----those catholic kids that did no

Genesis 19:30-38


Lot and His Daughters

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37 And the firstborn bare a son, and called his nameMoab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Ben-ammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.



These are the values we should be living by? Incest?

Whoa! Whoa! First off, Lot was drunk off his ass and had no knowledge of either event. Second, the Bible never says that is what one should do, it simply says that is what happened. Lastly, having a son in those days was a matter of life and death. There were no retirement plans, no 401ks, no welfare, no social security, etc. When you got old, you were taken care of by your children. If you had no children you became a beggar, a prostitute, or you starved to death. This is precisely why when a man died without having a son, his brother was required to get his brother's widow pregnant. This is why in Genesis 38:8-10 Onan was cursed for refusing to get his brother's widow pregnant. By withdrawing prior to ejaculation he was effectively sentencing her to death or destitution. The Bible is full of stories of women who had no sons, were getting a little older, and went to extraordinary lengths to conceive. But this has nothing to do with lust, morality, or whatever. It has everything to do with the woman ensuring they were going to be taken care of when they got too old to care for themselves.

In regard to Lot's daughters we see the same thing. Lot and his daughters had escaped Sodom and he refused to re-enter society so they were dwelling in a cave in isolation. His daughters started freaking out, thinking 'oh shit, we need sons or we are going to be fucked' so they did what they felt they had to do to cover their asses. Whether that was a good thing or a bad thing, the Bible doesn't say. But that's the point of the story. One might also argue that there are some messages there about the dangers of living an isolated life and the problems one might run into, or perhaps lessons about patience and not trying to force events to happen against their natural path.

I see your making up excuses for this, gee seems to me I would of went to town and had sex instead of getting my father drunk. how did they care for these babies, and where did they get all this wine to get their daddy drunk. I hear this same made up junk all the time, stories to back up the behavior of those in the OT. Sorry its has to be one of the most sick stories in the OT, and Lots wife turning into a pillar of salt.

Gee God saved them just so they could rape and have babies with their Dad.

PS: Gee I'm so glad they didn't have girls.

Penelope----you claim that you are a health care worker-----
Here is a little lesson for you-----if a patient interpreted
the story of LOT and his DAUGHTERS as do you------
a psychiatrist or neurologist would term the patient's
cognition as "concrete". Now google "concrete thinking" -----I do not really believe that you are as damaged as you
present yourself

how am I suppose to think about this abstractly? I mean they got their dad drunk and had sex with him. .

so? ------- did the nuns tell you to EMULATE Lot and
his daughters because like "DANIEL" they 'knew' Jesus
was ON HIS WAY? ----what did you expect them to tell
a classroom of ten year old kids?

 

[BluePhantom]

Genesis 19:30-38


Lot and His Daughters

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37 And the firstborn bare a son, and called his nameMoab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Ben-ammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.



These are the values we should be living by? Incest?

Whoa! Whoa! First off, Lot was drunk off his ass and had no knowledge of either event. Second, the Bible never says that is what one should do, it simply says that is what happened. Lastly, having a son in those days was a matter of life and death. There were no retirement plans, no 401ks, no welfare, no social security, etc. When you got old, you were taken care of by your children. If you had no children you became a beggar, a prostitute, or you starved to death. This is precisely why when a man died without having a son, his brother was required to get his brother's widow pregnant. This is why in Genesis 38:8-10 Onan was cursed for refusing to get his brother's widow pregnant. By withdrawing prior to ejaculation he was effectively sentencing her to death or destitution. The Bible is full of stories of women who had no sons, were getting a little older, and went to extraordinary lengths to conceive. But this has nothing to do with lust, morality, or whatever. It has everything to do with the woman ensuring they were going to be taken care of when they got too old to care for themselves.

In regard to Lot's daughters we see the same thing. Lot and his daughters had escaped Sodom and he refused to re-enter society so they were dwelling in a cave in isolation. His daughters started freaking out, thinking 'oh shit, we need sons or we are going to be fucked' so they did what they felt they had to do to cover their asses. Whether that was a good thing or a bad thing, the Bible doesn't say. But that's the point of the story. One might also argue that there are some messages there about the dangers of living an isolated life and the problems one might run into, or perhaps lessons about patience and not trying to force events to happen against their natural path.

I see your making up excuses for this, gee seems to me I would of went to town and had sex instead of getting my father drunk. how did they care for these babies, and where did they get all this wine to get their daddy drunk. I hear this same made up junk all the time, stories to back up the behavior of those in the OT. Sorry its has to be one of the most sick stories in the OT, and Lots wife turning into a pillar of salt.

Gee God saved them just so they could rape and have babies with their Dad.

PS: Gee I'm so glad they didn't have girls.

Oh my God.. Ok. There was no town. There were living in a cave in the mountains. Travel was dangerous, especially for two women that were alone. Besides, this is not to be taken literally. These are legendary stories that explain principles. When it talks about Lot's wife turning to a pillar of salt, one should not assume she is turning into a block of sodium chloride. The lesson is not to look back at the past. It's about starting a new life. Think of it like this. God told Lot to take his family away from a sinful environment and not to look back. In other words 'move on with your life and let the past go'. His wife was unable to do that. She could not let the past go and continued to yearn for a past life that was no longer available. Thus she turned depressed and bitter. She developed a 'salty disposition' perhaps and never found happiness. These stories are to be taken allegorically, not literally.

Who the hell taught you your Bible lessons anyhow?

 

[irosie91]

Genesis 19:30-38


Lot and His Daughters

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32


Oh my God.. Ok. There was no town. There were living in a cave in the mountains. Travel was dangerous, especially for two women that were alone. Besides, this is not to be taken literally. These are legendary stories that explain principles. When it talks about Lot's wife turning to a pillar of salt, one should not assume she is turning into a block of sodium chloride. The lesson is not to look back at the past. It's about starting a new life. Think of it like this. God told Lot to take his family away from a sinful environment and not to look back. In other words 'move on with your life and let the past go'. His wife was unable to do that. She could not let the past go and continued to yearn for a past life that was no longer available. Thus she turned depressed and bitter. She developed a 'salty disposition' perhaps and never found happiness. These stories are to be taken allegorically, not literally.

Who the hell taught you your Bible lessons anyhow?

calm down-----you are going way over Penelope's head and----IMHO-----over interpreting a bit----not that doing so is a BAD THING. Penelope was educated -----according to her own account-----in catholic school. ----she remains fixated in approximately the fifth grade. when I was a kid----in my town there was a very large catholic school to which most
catholic kids went UNTIL the eighth grade-------then the BEST went to catholic high school------then the dregs joined us---------they were just as dim as is penelope

 

[irosie91]

Blue----I am not sure that the issue of the story of LOT and his girls is "to explain principles" as if the writers were compiling
a junior high school curriculum for the FUTURE.

 

[BluePhantom]

calm down-----you are going way over Penelope's head and----IMHO-----over interpreting a bit----not that doing so is a BAD THING. Penelope was educated -----according to her own account-----in catholic school. ----she remains fixated in approximately the fifth grade. when I was a kid----in my town there was a very large catholic school to which most
catholic kids went UNTIL the eighth grade-------then the BEST went to catholic high school------then the dregs joined us---------they were just as dim as is penelope

I went to Catholic school too, although not because I was a Catholic but because it was the best school in town. The issue is that getting all concerned about minutia (such as "well where did Lot's daughters get wine?") makes one miss the point. It doesn't matter where they got the wine. It's a story intended to teach a lesson, not record a historical event.

 

[BluePhantom]

Blue----I am not sure that the issue of the story of LOT and his girls is "to explain principles" as if the writers were compiling
a junior high school curriculum for the FUTURE.

What the author's intent was specific to that story is unknown, I would agree, except perhaps to explain where the Moabites and Ammonites came from. Both were enemies of the Israelites so his point could have simply been to establish that these enemies of the Israelites were descendants of a bunch of incestuous perverts. In fact, that's probably exactly the point he was making.

 

[Penelope]

Genesis 19:30-38


Lot and His Daughters

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37 And the firstborn bare a son, and called his nameMoab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Ben-ammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.



These are the values we should be living by? Incest?

Whoa! Whoa! First off, Lot was drunk off his ass and had no knowledge of either event. Second, the Bible never says that is what one should do, it simply says that is what happened. Lastly, having a son in those days was a matter of life and death. There were no retirement plans, no 401ks, no welfare, no social security, etc. When you got old, you were taken care of by your children. If you had no children you became a beggar, a prostitute, or you starved to death. This is precisely why when a man died without having a son, his brother was required to get his brother's widow pregnant. This is why in Genesis 38:8-10 Onan was cursed for refusing to get his brother's widow pregnant. By withdrawing prior to ejaculation he was effectively sentencing her to death or destitution. The Bible is full of stories of women who had no sons, were getting a little older, and went to extraordinary lengths to conceive. But this has nothing to do with lust, morality, or whatever. It has everything to do with the woman ensuring they were going to be taken care of when they got too old to care for themselves.

In regard to Lot's daughters we see the same thing. Lot and his daughters had escaped Sodom and he refused to re-enter society so they were dwelling in a cave in isolation. His daughters started freaking out, thinking 'oh shit, we need sons or we are going to be fucked' so they did what they felt they had to do to cover their asses. Whether that was a good thing or a bad thing, the Bible doesn't say. But that's the point of the story. One might also argue that there are some messages there about the dangers of living an isolated life and the problems one might run into, or perhaps lessons about patience and not trying to force events to happen against their natural path.

I see your making up excuses for this, gee seems to me I would of went to town and had sex instead of getting my father drunk. how did they care for these babies, and where did they get all this wine to get their daddy drunk. I hear this same made up junk all the time, stories to back up the behavior of those in the OT. Sorry its has to be one of the most sick stories in the OT, and Lots wife turning into a pillar of salt.

Gee God saved them just so they could rape and have babies with their Dad.

PS: Gee I'm so glad they didn't have girls.

Oh my God.. Ok. There was no town. There were living in a cave in the mountains. Travel was dangerous, especially for two women that were alone. Besides, this is not to be taken literally. These are legendary stories that explain principles. When it talks about Lot's wife turning to a pillar of salt, one should not assume she is turning into a block of sodium chloride. The lesson is not to look back at the past. It's about starting a new life. Think of it like this. God told Lot to take his family away from a sinful environment and not to look back. In other words 'move on with your life and let the past go'. His wife was unable to do that. She could not let the past go and continued to yearn for a past life that was no longer available. Thus she turned depressed and bitter. She developed a 'salty disposition' perhaps and never found happiness. These stories are to be taken allegorically, not literally.

Who the hell taught you your Bible lessons anyhow?

I see the allegory of Lots wife not looking back, but what exactly is the allegory of Lots giving his virgin daughters to be gang banged and Lots dtrs getting him drunk to get pg with him. Tell me the lesson to be learned from this? I just do not wear my Rose tinted glasses anymore.

 

[irosie91]

Blue----I am not sure that the issue of the story of LOT and his girls is "to explain principles" as if the writers were compiling
a junior high school curriculum for the FUTURE.

What the author's intent was specific to that story is unknown, I would agree, except perhaps to explain where the Moabites and Ammonites came from. Both were enemies of the Israelites so his point could have simply been to establish that these enemies of the Israelites were descendants of a bunch of incestuous perverts. In fact, that's probably exactly the point he was making.

yes, yes----your interpretation seems very plausible----but I actually believe that the stories were the "information" of that time. ------the inherited "knowledge" that was transformed by talented writers into-----the epic poem style of the ancients Of course the greeks did the same thing and even the Hindus etc etc etc ANCIENT SCRIPTURAL writings are sublime ------for that matter ----EVEN DA ARABS did it -------then islam happened and screwed up the
genius of Arabic poetry

 

[BluePhantom]

I see the allegory of Lots wife not looking back, but what exactly is the allegory of Lots giving his virgin daughters to be gang banged and Lots dtrs getting him drunk to get pg with him. Tell me the lesson to be learned from this? I just do not wear my Rose tinted glasses anymore.

Well some historical context can help a bit here. First, by custom, when someone had visitors it was the responsibility of the host to protect them in every way. This was critical in order for commerce to thrive and for society to develop and grow. The importance of this cannot be understated. Some have suggested that the sin of Sodom was, at least in part, a refusal to honor this sacred obligation to protect and care for travellers.

Also in antiquity, a gang rape by the men of the town was a common way to show power. It wasn't a sexual act for getting their rocks off. When a tribe conquered another tribe, the chief or king would commonly be gang raped by the soldiers in front of the people to demonstrate that the king was no longer in charge and to humiliate him to the degree that he could no longer pose a threat. This was also done to diplomats and people who were enemies. So for example, if a king sent a diplomat to an enemy town to discuss something and it was rejected, the diplomat might be gang raped as if to say 'here's your answer and this is what we are going to do to you too'.

In regard to Sodom and Gomorrah, this is a consideration because they were at war with the Elamites and their allies. Lot was trying to save the cities from destruction and a show of power and authority over God's angels is showing power and authority over God. Not a wise thing to do when God is threatening to burn you to cinders. Why he offered his daughters? Perhaps he was hoping that that the gang would be satisfied by sexual release rather than a show of power. Perhaps he thought 'better for my daughters to get raped rather than angels of the Lord'. Maybe he thought, that as he had the obligation to protect his visitors in every way, that giving his daughters was his only choice.

But in Gen. 19:8-9, it is written, "8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.” 9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door."

So it seems to me that what is happening is that Lot believes the gang wants sex and he has an obligation to protect his visitors. This is a sacred obligation especially when the visitors are angels of God. But the allusion to a foreigner playing judge tells me that the motivation of the gang was not get their rocks off. They wanted to find out who these strangers were and demonstrate their power over them as they were at war with neighboring tribes. So the story is about power and arrogance not about sex.

 

[sealybobo]

Genesis 19:30-38


Lot and His Daughters

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37 And the firstborn bare a son, and called his nameMoab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Ben-ammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.



These are the values we should be living by? Incest?

because I don't have a daughter I think that's hot.

 

[sealybobo]

Two nights in a row he didn't know what was happening because his daughters 'made' him drink wine (where did they get it all?)?

If passed out on alcohol, it becomes very difficult to believe you got it up, in, and got off.

of every case of incest I've ever heard of it was never the little girl taking advantage of the Father this Bible story is b******* bs

 

[irosie91]

I see the allegory of Lots wife not looking back, but what exactly is the allegory of Lots giving his virgin daughters to be gang banged and Lots dtrs getting him drunk to get pg with him. Tell me the lesson to be learned from this? I just do not wear my Rose tinted glasses anymore.

Well some historical context can help a bit here. First, by custom, when someone had visitors it was the responsibility of the host to protect them in every way. This was critical in order for commerce to thrive and for society to develop and grow. The importance of this cannot be understated. Some have suggested that the sin of Sodom was, at least in part, a refusal to honor this sacred obligation to protect and care for travellers.

Also in antiquity, a gang rape by the men of the town was a common way to show power. It wasn't a sexual act for getting their rocks off. When a tribe conquered another tribe, the chief or king would commonly be gang raped by the soldiers in front of the people to demonstrate that the king was no longer in charge and to humiliate him to the degree that he could no longer pose a threat. This was also done to diplomats and people who were enemies. So for example, if a king sent a diplomat to an enemy town to discuss something and it was rejected, the diplomat might be gang raped as if to say 'here's your answer and this is what we are going to do to you too'.

In regard to Sodom and Gomorrah, this is a consideration because they were at war with the Elamites and their allies. Lot was trying to save the cities from destruction and a show of power and authority over God's angels is showing power and authority over God. Not a wise thing to do when God is threatening to burn you to cinders. Why he offered his daughters? Perhaps he was hoping that that the gang would be satisfied by sexual release rather than a show of power. Perhaps he thought 'better for my daughters to get raped rather than angels of the Lord'. Maybe he thought, that as he had the obligation to protect his visitors in every way, that giving his daughters was his only choice.

But in Gen. 19:8-9, it is written, "8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.” 9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door."

So it seems to me that what is happening is that Lot believes the gang wants sex and he has an obligation to protect his visitors. This is a sacred obligation especially when the visitors are angels of God. But the allusion to a foreigner playing judge tells me that the motivation of the gang was not get their rocks off. They wanted to find out who these strangers were and demonstrate their power over them as they were at war with neighboring tribes. So the story is about power and arrogance not about sex.

your analysis is very reasonable------but do not try to sell it to the DA OT IS DA JOOOOOS crowd.-----it is too logical.

 

[BluePhantom]

Blue----I am not sure that the issue of the story of LOT and his girls is "to explain principles" as if the writers were compiling
a junior high school curriculum for the FUTURE.

What the author's intent was specific to that story is unknown, I would agree, except perhaps to explain where the Moabites and Ammonites came from. Both were enemies of the Israelites so his point could have simply been to establish that these enemies of the Israelites were descendants of a bunch of incestuous perverts. In fact, that's probably exactly the point he was making.

yes, yes----your interpretation seems very plausible----but I actually believe that the stories were the "information" of that time. ------the inherited "knowledge" that was transformed by talented writers into-----the epic poem style of the ancients Of course the greeks did the same thing and even the Hindus etc etc etc ANCIENT SCRIPTURAL writings are sublime ------for that matter ----EVEN DA ARABS did it -------then islam happened and screwed up the
genius of Arabic poetry

I would agree. BTW....I looked up some interpretation by Dr. Amy-Jill Levine, who is a reputed scholar on the Old testament, and that is her interpretation of the story of Lot's daughters as well. According to her, it's not 'oh look how great and clever these girls were' it's 'see those enemies of ours, the Moabites and Ammorites? They are the spawn of incestuous behaviour. They suck!' At least that's according to Levine.

 

[Steven_R]

The story is all about faith. Lot's wife didn't have faith in the Lord and disregarded his instructions and got turned into a pillar of salt for her troubles. Lot's daughters didn't have faith that God didn't wipe out humanity (again, natch) and so he gave them flipper kids for seducing their dad.

So the takeaway here is trust in the Lord and let the bible be your guide when it comes to sexual behaviors, or at least the parts that involve virgins and monogamy. Ignore the multiple wives, boning your slaves, raping, incest, and the whole of Song of Solomon. Also, god hates gays more than he hates idolaters and thieves and murderers and people who break the Sabbath.

Frankly, do you really think Yahweh really comes off as benevolent in this story.

He doesn't like some gay dudes in Sodom, so he kills all the women, children and infants in not only Sodom but Gomorrah at well. Man, that is all sorts of fucked up.

And poor Mrs. Lot just looked back when everything she had known and loved was being destroyed, and God turned her into a condiment?

Now, a better way to understand the bible is as myth. In the Bronze Age, "God" was the go-to explanation for every bit of science a bunch of piss-ignorant goat herders didn't understand. something bad happens, must have done something to anger "God".

Today we have computers and space shuttles and science. We don't need "God" to explain things.

I agree completely. For a god of love, Jehovah often acts like a complete tool. I'm not a believer in Middle Eastern mythology, but I was trying to rationalize it the way someone who was a believer might.

tl;dr version: God works in mysterious, dickish ways. Who are we to second guess His decisions?