NLRB Claims authority over Church Schools

[saveliberty]

We consider the pastor's position to be a calling and not a job. Most of the rest of it is volunteer helpers.

Relevance?

How can the NLRB be involved, if no one technically is employed?

 

[konradv]

We consider the pastor's position to be a calling and not a job. Most of the rest of it is volunteer helpers.

Relevance?

How can the NLRB be involved, if no one technically is employed?

That's irrelevant to this discussion because we're talking teachers, not pastors, who ARE employed, aren't necessarily Catholic and in most cases not teaching religious subject matter.

 

[clevergirl]

Relevance?

How can the NLRB be involved, if no one technically is employed?

That's irrelevant to this discussion because we're talking teachers, not pastors, who ARE employed, aren't necessarily Catholic and in most cases not teaching religious subject matter.

Then THEY need to go to work at non PRIVATE institution!

 

[saveliberty]

Relevance?

How can the NLRB be involved, if no one technically is employed?

That's irrelevant to this discussion because we're talking teachers, not pastors, who ARE employed, aren't necessarily Catholic and in most cases not teaching religious subject matter.

I guess when the government stops trying to expand beyond their borders, I'll worry about churches doing the same. Churches have been involved in education for centuries. Just what labor laws are being violated here again? Sounds like the church has a diversity program.

 

[clevergirl]

How can the NLRB be involved, if no one technically is employed?

That's irrelevant to this discussion because we're talking teachers, not pastors, who ARE employed, aren't necessarily Catholic and in most cases not teaching religious subject matter.

I guess when the government stops trying to expand beyond their borders, I'll worry about churches doing the same. Churches have been involved in education for centuries. Just what labor laws are being violated here again? Sounds like the church has a diversity program.

Churches BEGAN education in this country... Princeton WAS a Presbyterian university. That not all subject matter is a religious endeavor i.e. mathematics, is what is NOT relevant to the discussion. The only relevance is whether or not religious institutions are protected under the first amendment.

 

[konradv]

How can the NLRB be involved, if no one technically is employed?

That's irrelevant to this discussion because we're talking teachers, not pastors, who ARE employed, aren't necessarily Catholic and in most cases not teaching religious subject matter.

I guess when the government stops trying to expand beyond their borders, I'll worry about churches doing the same. Churches have been involved in education for centuries. Just what labor laws are being violated here again? Sounds like the church has a diversity program.

Doesn't really matter, does it? The question is, is this a religious question, at all? I don't see it. You may have isuues with the NLRB, but that doesn't make it a religious issue, just because an institution has a religious affiliation. Just as Muslims shouldn't be allowed to have sharia law circumvent U.S. law, religiously affiliated institutions shouldn't be able to use that fact to circumvent labor laws. Got a problem with the laws, attack them on THAT basis.

 

[clevergirl]

That's irrelevant to this discussion because we're talking teachers, not pastors, who ARE employed, aren't necessarily Catholic and in most cases not teaching religious subject matter.

I guess when the government stops trying to expand beyond their borders, I'll worry about churches doing the same. Churches have been involved in education for centuries. Just what labor laws are being violated here again? Sounds like the church has a diversity program.

Doesn't really matter, does it? The question is, is this a religious question, at all? I don't see it. You may have isuues with the NLRB, but that doesn't make it a religious issue, just because an institution has a religious affiliation. Just as Muslims shouldn't be allowed to have sharia law circumvent U.S. law, religiously affiliated institutions shouldn't be able to use that fact to circumvent labor laws. Got a problem with the laws, attack them on THAT basis.

You are no legal scholar that's for certain. Private schools of religious persuasion are protected under first amendment language...period. This is a direct assault on those protections. Even if you are pro organized labor and anti religious, this kind of assault on first amendment protections should bother you.

What specific labor laws have been violated?

 

[saveliberty]

I know the government has attempted to control colleges through equality measures. They have found they cannot, except to withhold monies from these schools. I would suggest these schools stop accepting federal money.

 

[konradv]

I guess when the government stops trying to expand beyond their borders, I'll worry about churches doing the same. Churches have been involved in education for centuries. Just what labor laws are being violated here again? Sounds like the church has a diversity program.

Doesn't really matter, does it? The question is, is this a religious question, at all? I don't see it. You may have isuues with the NLRB, but that doesn't make it a religious issue, just because an institution has a religious affiliation. Just as Muslims shouldn't be allowed to have sharia law circumvent U.S. law, religiously affiliated institutions shouldn't be able to use that fact to circumvent labor laws. Got a problem with the laws, attack them on THAT basis.

You are no legal scholar that's for certain. Private schools of religious persuasion are protected under first amendment language...period. This is a direct assault on those protections. Even if you are pro organized labor and anti religious, this kind of assault on first amendment protections should bother you.

What specific labor laws have been violated?

You tell me. You seem to be convinced the NLRB is wrong! How can you make that judgement and ask that question?!?!

 

[chikenwing]

I think the NLRB is right.

The role of churches is NOT to become something other than a church.

A church founded university that is not ENTIRELY focused on matters religious is NOT a church, it is a university of higher education.

What??!!! way off base on this one,churches have every right to run schools,have been doing it for, well centuries,and should be able to continue.


Not so good at being tolerant,and excepting of different opinions and wishes??

 

[MiddleClass]

"NLRB Claims authority over Church Schools"

Beware, if you become a teacher at a Christian School, you lose all protections granted under the U.S. Constitution, or at least according to the Rightwingnuts

 

[MiddleClass]

I think the NLRB is right.

The role of churches is NOT to become something other than a church.

A church founded university that is not ENTIRELY focused on matters religious is NOT a church, it is a university of higher education.

What??!!! way off base on this one,churches have every right to run schools,have been doing it for, well centuries,and should be able to continue.


Not so good at being tolerant,and excepting of different opinions and wishes??

America places the U.S. Constitution First, not Religion

 

[saveliberty]

Turning to the facts of that case, the court reasoned, “The church-teacher relationship in a church-operated school differs from the employment relationship in a public … school. There is no escape from conflicts flowing from [NLRB's] exercise of jurisdiction over teachers in church-operated schools and the consequent serious First Amendment questions that would follow.”

Gee, looks like the Supreme Court spoke very clearly about this once before...

NLRB and Obama fail.

 

[konradv]

I think the NLRB is right.

The role of churches is NOT to become something other than a church.

A church founded university that is not ENTIRELY focused on matters religious is NOT a church, it is a university of higher education.

What??!!! way off base on this one,churches have every right to run schools,have been doing it for, well centuries,and should be able to continue.


Not so good at being tolerant,and excepting of different opinions and wishes??

It's not about the right to run schools, but adherence to labor laws. Why should a religiously-affiliated school be exempt?

 

[konradv]

Turning to the facts of that case, the court reasoned, “The church-teacher relationship in a church-operated school differs from the employment relationship in a public … school. There is no escape from conflicts flowing from [NLRB's] exercise of jurisdiction over teachers in church-operated schools and the consequent serious First Amendment questions that would follow.”

Gee, looks like the Supreme Court spoke very clearly about this once before...

NLRB and Obama fail.

 

[editec]

I think the NLRB is right.

The role of churches is NOT to become something other than a church.

A church founded university that is not ENTIRELY focused on matters religious is NOT a church, it is a university of higher education.

That is a big fail. I know that in NY religious institutions serve regularly in nonreligious function. Shelters, Pantry's, Food Banks, Soup Kitchens, Schools, State Special Education Schools, Charter Schools, Colleges, in which the Property is used. Religious Articles are covered up or removed so the space is neutral. Neither the Local, State, or Federal Authorities have had a problem with that. Keep stirring up shit though.

Stirring shit?

Do grow up.

When any not for profit organization steps outside of its not-for-profit purpose, it is entirely approprate that that other activity be guided by the principles and laws that all other such organizations must face.

Were that not the case then charlatans could easily hide behind the veil of religion to conduct activities having nothing to do with religion.

 

[editec]

Hogwash! If my church is forbidden to teach me how to live my faith in concordane with the world around me (secular) it is forbidden to teach it's doctrine.

If I go to Boston College (Jesuit, I think, isn't it?) and major in GEOLOGY, am I studying religion?

No, I am not.

Ergo, that instiution is NOT exclusively doing CHURCH business, it is now about the business of being and educational institute.

As an institution of higher learning it ought to be subject to the exact same laws as every other insitute of higher learning.

Now if BC ONLY taught theology, THEN of course, the government ought to stay the hell out of its business.

But it ain't so let's not pretend otherwise, okay?

If I study geology in a secular (government) school I will be told that man came from an evolution of animals as evidenced by fossils and religious beliefs about where man came from are not only neglected but specifically omitted due to issues of separation of church and state.

Then you tell me that the Church has no business teaching geology in a complete and orderly fashion and including the religious belief that man was created by God and is not an ancestor of the apes because the role of education should be reserved only for secular (government) authority?


I did NOT say that churches do not have that right.

I merely posited that when church steps into areas other than conducting their religion, then they must accept the same laws regarding that business as every other.

Do learn to read what is written and not what you imagine is written, okay?

Thanks in advance, henceforth, not putting words into my posts that are not there.

 

[Conservative]

Turning to the facts of that case, the court reasoned, “The church-teacher relationship in a church-operated school differs from the employment relationship in a public … school. There is no escape from conflicts flowing from [NLRB's] exercise of jurisdiction over teachers in church-operated schools and the consequent serious First Amendment questions that would follow.”

Gee, looks like the Supreme Court spoke very clearly about this once before...

NLRB and Obama fail.

It's in the first post in this thread. Read the thread.

 

[konradv]

Turning to the facts of that case, the court reasoned, “The church-teacher relationship in a church-operated school differs from the employment relationship in a public … school. There is no escape from conflicts flowing from [NLRB's] exercise of jurisdiction over teachers in church-operated schools and the consequent serious First Amendment questions that would follow.”

Gee, looks like the Supreme Court spoke very clearly about this once before...

NLRB and Obama fail.

It's in the first post in this thread. Read the thread.

I see it, but that story doesn't really get to the gist of the issue. It's more concerned with making a political statement than elucidating the core of the case. I was hoping for a link to the actual ruling. A site with pictures of Obama, Stalin and Hitler at the top of the story hardly makes for what I'd call "fair and balanced", making both their conclusions and quotations suspect, IMO.

 

[saveliberty]

It's in the first post in this thread. Read the thread.

I see it, but that story doesn't really get to the gist of the issue. It's more concerned with making a political statement than elucidating the core of the case. I was hoping for a link to the actual ruling. A site with pictures of Obama, Stalin and Hitler at the top of the story hardly makes for what I'd call "fair and balanced", making both their conclusions and quotations suspect, IMO.

That is all you got now huh? Disagreeing with the OP quote?

The National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) certified unions as bargaining agents for lay teachers in schools operated by respondents, which refused to recognize or bargain with the unions; the NLRB issued cease-and-desist orders against respondents, holding that it had properly assumed jurisdiction over the schools. Exercise of jurisdiction was asserted to be in line with its policy of declining jurisdiction only when schools are "completely religious" not just "religiously associated," as it found to be the case here, because the schools taught secular as well as religious subjects. On respondents' challenges to the NLRB orders, the Court of Appeals denied enforcement, holding that the NLRB standard failed to provide a workable guide for the exercise of its discretion, and that the NLRB's assumption of jurisdiction was foreclosed by the Religion Clauses of the First Amendment.

Held: Schools operated by a church to teach both religious and secular subjects are not within the jurisdiction granted by the National Labor Relations Act, and the NLRB was therefore without authority to issue the orders against respondents. Pp. 440 U. S. 499-507.

(a) There would be a significant risk of infringement of the Religion Clauses of the First Amendment if the Act conferred jurisdiction over church-operated schools. Cf. Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U. S. 602, 403 U. S. 617. Pp. 440 U. S. 501-504.

(b) Neither the language of the statute nor its legislative history discloses any affirmative intention by Congress that church-operated schools be within the NLRB's jurisdiction, and, absent a clear expression of Congress' intent to bring teachers of church-operated schools within the NLRB's jurisdiction, the Court will not construe the Act in such a way as would call for the resolution of difficult and sensitive First Amendment questions. Pp. 440 U. S. 504-507.

559 F.2d 1112, affirmed.

BURGER, C.J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which STEWART, POWELL, REHNQUIST, and STEVENS, JJ., joined. BRENNAN, J.

NLRB V. CATHOLIC BISHOP OF CHICAGO, 440 U. S. 490 :: Volume 440 :: 1979 :: Full Text :: US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez